Male Panther with Gular Edema or Neck Swelling...

[AsiaKauffman]

Ok, so I have a male Panther Chameleon estimate to be 3.3 years old, had for awhile now. Moved to California from Ohio. My panther had been doing pretty good before we moved.

In December Saw a vet to get a good bill of health and set out for a roadtrip to California.

January i decided to go to some local pet stores and ask about the right calcium and lighting/outdoor too since Ohio weather is different than Ohio. I was told to use Rep - Cal Phosphorous-free Calcium with Vit D3 everyday.

I'm not 100% on this, but a week after dusting his food with this D3, he got swelling in the neck (looked like a lion), my mueller got it too( mueller went away after stopped), but after noticing this i freaked, stopped and called my old vet, he told me that chameleons can't get D3 overloaded, but I have heard differently and since my chameleons haven't had anything else NEW INTRODUCED,.... I felt it was due to "over supplementing"- researched later.

Went to a local Vet and he got put on.......(vet wanted to rule out infection in neck).

1. Amikacin – shot every 3 days for 10 treatments
* halfway through, didn’t notice a difference, was told no need to use calcium or suppliments if you gutload your bugs well.

2. 3/15/11 recheck, Hematology PCV/TS
given Trimethoprim .20ml orally/1 time daily for 30 days.
* told he was anemic, his organs were all in good order and his calcium/bones were good (From Bloodwork). He seemed weak, sluggish
(prob due to anemia?)

Fecal exam done 3/15/11
Direct and float – check for cyst and parasite – NEGATIVE

3/28/11 called about trimethoprim not noticing a difference, so they gave
Fortaz 100 ml (.10ml shot every 3 days for 12 treatments)

4/11/11 started to give Linus “ Vegie juice”
* Kale, spinach and collard greens I juiced and give orally 3 times a day with food, to help his low iron levels, and squeeze fresh orange to use to help his body absorb the iron. ( Linus seemed more energetic after given for a few days)

4/15/11 treatment 10 administered. Linus seems sluggish.

So, I went to another vet to get a second opinion and help, since this last vet was trying but after months, i wanted to save my chameleons life, not keep wondering.

New vet,....Went in, he said my chameleon was NOT ANEMIC,...had another blood test done (which came back negative,. all organs in good shape), after discussing chameleons food, housing, lighting, ect,...

Vet thinks he may have some mineral and vitamin problems, since I have never given him more than bugs, gutloaded and calcium occasionally.

Vet put him on tube feeding vitamin powder everyday, oral calcium and dusting food every day with calcium without d3.

Chameleon gets out in the sun about 6 - 8 hours a week, Reti sun 5.0 rest of week inside.
eats.. Silkworms, phoenix worms, crickets, pinkies, mealworms mainly.
Showered for 30 mins each day.


Linus still isn't better,.......

Has anyone else had neck swelling problems that comes and goes?(looks like a lion, then the side swelling goes away, but always has underneath swelling, sometimes huge like a balloon then other times almost gone)

Any and all experiences will help!

He's not mad, he seems weak, his back legs are swollen, he has no neck infections, bloodwork all good/organs functioning properly.

I'm calling the vet again tomorrow to see what else we can do. The vet mentioned taking a sample of the neck fluid and get tested. Pretty pricy as well.

All this curiosity and trying to understand what i may have done wrong or what happened is making me pursue vet school so I can write books and help others to be more aware of these little guys.


Thank you all for helping me understand them more!

Posting pics soon

 

[AsiaKauffman]

Linus with side of neck looking normal. I'll post a photo when it looks like a Lion when it happens again, which is usually daily.

 

[AsiaKauffman]

Linus with underneath armpits/chest swollen

 

[AsiaKauffman]

Chest and armpits swollen, this is the least it has been, but usually gets huge, like a balloon, daily. Will post when it gets bad again.

 

[AsiaKauffman]

Back legs look swollen too, since this started, looks worse.

 

[sdheli420]

Back legs look swollen too, since this started, looks worse.

Im new to seeing this specifically..it almost looks like hes a lil over weight and has ??hernias" bad spelling..ied have been to the vet yesturday!!! asap.

 

[gogochameleon]

Im new to seeing this specifically..it almost looks like hes a lil over weight and has ??hernias" bad spelling..ied have been to the vet yesturday!!! asap.

ya he looks a lil overweight. I never seen this tho. I will be looking and researching for you.

 

[AsiaKauffman]

ya he looks a lil overweight. I never seen this tho. I will be looking and researching for you.

Thank you! Let me know if there are good websites or books for information!

The vet said he was underweight! That's why I just started feeding him pinkies.
I'll find out how much we weighs tomorrow when i call in.

 

[AsiaKauffman]

 

[pantherlover]

Ahh poor guy! Sounds like youve done good for your cham. 3 plus years in your care is a good thing. Many people may jump in and say theyre able to keep their animals alive for seven or more years, most often seen in veilds and some learning experience through years of keeping these tremendous animals. If if you can get your panther to live 5 plus, youve done a great job imo.
Luckly Ive never had to deal with such a severe case of edema. From my understanding, edema is basically water retention and is linked to over supplementation in most cases... Kinda like me eating too many nachos at the bar last night and feeling bloated like a balloon today because I had too much salt.
Ive seen slight cases of edema in my female panther and was able to correct it by going a week with no dust and practicing dusting lighter when I get back to the regular supplement schedule. I wouldnt discount the fact that the nutrient ratios could be off and could be the culprit.
Is your gutload similar to the juice you mentioned? Do you provide a good dry gutload? Do you ever see your guy shooting at the soil?

 

[lslcronk]

You said: "I was told to use Rep - Cal Phosphorous-free Calcium with Vit D3 everyday"

All I know for sure is that this is incorrect info, which pet stores do a lot!! He should NOT be getting D3 everyday. Especially if he is out in the sun that much. There is a thread on supplementing on the fourm, check that out.

They need plain phos free calcium everyday or so.

Calcium with Vit. D3 only 2 times a month (I do mine on alternating Satudays with...)

Herptivite - reptile vitamin (does NOT have preformed Vit A - which if you overdose on that can be really bad for the eyes so make sure if you aren't getting Herptivite you check the ingredients) also 2 times a month, I just do on the off Saturdays from my D3.

Over supplementing is just as bad if not worse than not supplementing. This is the schedule I see recommended the most. There is also a how to ask for help form under the Health Forum, you might want to fill that out as well, these guys are pretty good at finding the issues. Good luck!!

 

[pantherlover]

Many people use supplements containing preformed vitamin a with great success. Many also believe that panthers can not convert beta carotine into preformed vitamin a.Preformed A can be dangerous if used incorrectly but it has to do with the interaction between vitamin a & d3. Some people do have success with herptivite but you more than likely would find that they are using a huge range of feeders, one or more of which that can make the conversion. It isnt proven which feeders can do so

 

[kinyonga]

Your chameleon has been through a lot and I'm not sure that most of the treatment since he developed the gular pouch edema was for the best. I'm surprised that after all of it the last vet said that his organs were good.

I have rarely had edema in chameleons so I haven't had to deal with getting rid of it often...but its often the result of poor organ function or improper nutrients.

I know of one vet who tried to treat it with some prEformed vitamin A...but the edema remained unchanged after the treatment.

Here's some information that explains the reasoning behind the supplements/nutrients...
Appropriate cage temperatures aid in digestion and thus play a part indirectly in nutrient absorption.

Exposure to UVB from either direct sunlight or a proper UVB light allows the chameleon to produce D3 so that it can use the calcium in its system to make/keep the bones strong and be used in other systems in the chameleon as well. The UVB should not pass through glass or plastic no matter whether its from the sun or the UVB light. The most often recommended UVB light is the long linear fluorescent Repti-sun 5.0 tube light. Some of the compacts, spirals and tube lights have caused health issues, but so far there have been no bad reports against this one.

Since many of the feeder insects have a poor ratio of calcium to phosphorus in them, its important to dust the insects just before you feed them to the chameleon at most feedings with a phos.-free calcium powder to help make up for it. (I use Rep-cal phosphorus-free calcium).

If you also dust twice a month with a phos.-free calcium/D3 powder it will ensure that your chameleon gets some D3 without overdoing it. It leaves the chameleon to produce the rest of what it needs through its exposure to the UVB light. D3 from supplements can build up in the system but D3 produced from exposure to UVB shouldn't as long as the chameleon can move in and out of it. (I use Rep-cal phos.-free calcium/D3).

Dusting twice a month as well with a vitamin powder that contains a beta carotene (prOformed) source of vitamin A will ensure that the chameleon gets some vitamins without the danger of overdosing the vitamin A. PrEformed sources of vitamin A can build up in the system and may prevent the D3 from doing its job and push the chameleon towards MBD. However, there is controversy as to whether all/any chameleons can convert the beta carotene and so some people give some prEformed vitamin A once in a while. (I use herptivite which has beta carotene.)

Gutloading/feeding the insects well helps to provide what the chameleon needs. I gutload crickets, roaches, locusts, superworms, etc. with an assortment of greens (dandelions, kale, collards, endive, escarole, mustard greens, etc.) and veggies (carrots, squash, sweet potato, sweet red pepper, zucchini, etc.)

Calcium, phos., D3 and vitamin A are important players in bone health and other systems in the chameleon (muscles, etc.) and they need to be in balance. When trying to balance them, you need to look at the supplements, what you feed the insects and what you feed the chameleon.

Here are some good sites for you to read...
http://chameleonnews.com/07FebWheelock.html
http://web.archive.org/web/200605020...Vitamin.A.html
http://web.archive.org/web/200406080...d.Calcium.html
http://www.uvguide.co.uk/
http://web.archive.org/web/200601140...ww.adcham.com/
If you can't access the sites above that have the word "archive" in you can do it through the WayBackMachine.

 

[AsiaKauffman]

Ahh poor guy! Sounds like youve done good for your cham. 3 plus years in your care is a good thing. Many people may jump in and say theyre able to keep their animals alive for seven or more years, most often seen in veilds and some learning experience through years of keeping these tremendous animals. If if you can get your panther to live 5 plus, youve done a great job imo.
Luckly Ive never had to deal with such a severe case of edema. From my understanding, edema is basically water retention and is linked to over supplementation in most cases... Kinda like me eating too many nachos at the bar last night and feeling bloated like a balloon today because I had too much salt.
Ive seen slight cases of edema in my female panther and was able to correct it by going a week with no dust and practicing dusting lighter when I get back to the regular supplement schedule. I wouldnt discount the fact that the nutrient ratios could be off and could be the culprit.
Is your gutload similar to the juice you mentioned? Do you provide a good dry gutload? Do you ever see your guy shooting at the soil?

Once I took him to the vet, the vet told me to stop the juice (kale/collard greens), since he wasn't anemic. I started giving him celery juice (it helps with fluid absorption and i wasn't for sure if it was helping or not), used it for 3 days last week then stopped. I just hate that i've been working on this for 4 months now and he looks like he just doesn't feel good. The gutload I just started using that was recommended by the vet is Mazuri (dry cricket powder - instead of veggies). He never seems to eat soil or anything.

I stopped using the calcium d3 or any calcium since January, then just about 2 weeks ago started calcium without d3, so I am hoping this wouldn't hurt him.

I'm still wondering how this happened. I've never had a panther before, but I'd like to learn as much as i can and save him, so he can enjoy a few more years here.

He drinks water from the shower daily and I don't know if the fluoride in the water is high? I may get the water here tested. My Mueller eats and drinks and has the same setup and hes great.

Thanks again for all the help!

 

[AsiaKauffman]

You said: "I was told to use Rep - Cal Phosphorous-free Calcium with Vit D3 everyday"

All I know for sure is that this is incorrect info, which pet stores do a lot!! He should NOT be getting D3 everyday. Especially if he is out in the sun that much. There is a thread on supplementing on the fourm, check that out.

They need plain phos free calcium everyday or so.

Calcium with Vit. D3 only 2 times a month (I do mine on alternating Satudays with...)

Herptivite - reptile vitamin (does NOT have preformed Vit A - which if you overdose on that can be really bad for the eyes so make sure if you aren't getting Herptivite you check the ingredients) also 2 times a month, I just do on the off Saturdays from my D3.

Over supplementing is just as bad if not worse than not supplementing. This is the schedule I see recommended the most. There is also a how to ask for help form under the Health Forum, you might want to fill that out as well, these guys are pretty good at finding the issues. Good luck!!

Thank you for your information! I rarely supplemented Linus for 2.7 years and never had a problem. I've been researching (sucks it took me a lizard being sick to get me into researching more), and i've been finding out through owners that are into this the correct info like what you told me and I am happy that i finally am understanding how calcium,...d3, and their bodies...natural sunlight and then a light bulb works.

Now to figure out if it's just a bad case of edema,...vitamin ratio of balance, and if he can be saved. ???
Bloodwork came back all good, but his body looks worse

 

[kinyonga]

If you weren't giving him the D3 (if I'm reading this right) before he started having the problems, IMHO the D3 could be a part of the problems. Has anyone done an xray to see if his bones are okay??

 

[AsiaKauffman]

Your chameleon has been through a lot and I'm not sure that most of the treatment since he developed the gular pouch edema was for the best. I'm surprised that after all of it the last vet said that his organs were good.

I have rarely had edema in chameleons so I haven't had to deal with getting rid of it often...but its often the result of poor organ function or improper nutrients.

I know of one vet who tried to treat it with some prEformed vitamin A...but the edema remained unchanged after the treatment.

Here's some information that explains the reasoning behind the supplements/nutrients...
Appropriate cage temperatures aid in digestion and thus play a part indirectly in nutrient absorption.

Exposure to UVB from either direct sunlight or a proper UVB light allows the chameleon to produce D3 so that it can use the calcium in its system to make/keep the bones strong and be used in other systems in the chameleon as well. The UVB should not pass through glass or plastic no matter whether its from the sun or the UVB light. The most often recommended UVB light is the long linear fluorescent Repti-sun 5.0 tube light. Some of the compacts, spirals and tube lights have caused health issues, but so far there have been no bad reports against this one.

Since many of the feeder insects have a poor ratio of calcium to phosphorus in them, its important to dust the insects just before you feed them to the chameleon at most feedings with a phos.-free calcium powder to help make up for it. (I use Rep-cal phosphorus-free calcium).

If you also dust twice a month with a phos.-free calcium/D3 powder it will ensure that your chameleon gets some D3 without overdoing it. It leaves the chameleon to produce the rest of what it needs through its exposure to the UVB light. D3 from supplements can build up in the system but D3 produced from exposure to UVB shouldn't as long as the chameleon can move in and out of it. (I use Rep-cal phos.-free calcium/D3).

Dusting twice a month as well with a vitamin powder that contains a beta carotene (prOformed) source of vitamin A will ensure that the chameleon gets some vitamins without the danger of overdosing the vitamin A. PrEformed sources of vitamin A can build up in the system and may prevent the D3 from doing its job and push the chameleon towards MBD. However, there is controversy as to whether all/any chameleons can convert the beta carotene and so some people give some prEformed vitamin A once in a while. (I use herptivite which has beta carotene.)

Gutloading/feeding the insects well helps to provide what the chameleon needs. I gutload crickets, roaches, locusts, superworms, etc. with an assortment of greens (dandelions, kale, collards, endive, escarole, mustard greens, etc.) and veggies (carrots, squash, sweet potato, sweet red pepper, zucchini, etc.)

Calcium, phos., D3 and vitamin A are important players in bone health and other systems in the chameleon (muscles, etc.) and they need to be in balance. When trying to balance them, you need to look at the supplements, what you feed the insects and what you feed the chameleon.

Here are some good sites for you to read...
http://chameleonnews.com/07FebWheelock.html
http://web.archive.org/web/200605020...Vitamin.A.html
http://web.archive.org/web/200406080...d.Calcium.html
http://www.uvguide.co.uk/
http://web.archive.org/web/200601140...ww.adcham.com/
If you can't access the sites above that have the word "archive" in you can do it through the WayBackMachine.

Thank you for all your information! When I supplemented him for a week with d3 in January I still wonder if it's in his system? That's when he got this edema and it has remained til this day, but gets huge then goes away throughout the day.

 

[AsiaKauffman]

If you weren't giving him the D3 (if I'm reading this right) before he started having the problems, IMHO the D3 could be a part of the problems. Has anyone done an xray to see if his bones are okay??

That's right. I only used Miner- All I only a couple times a month or less once he got to be 1.5 years only and ate crickets and mealworms which were gutloaded with cricket cubes (made for them).

I gave him calcium with d3 ( 1 week in January 2011) and put him in the sun half the week/ half under uvb lights. I didn't realize that d3 shouldn't be given so often and not when he's going outside regularly,........UNTIL he got edema and I started researching and called a vet to help.

My Opinion is the D3 gave him "over supplementing" problems- hence gular edema,..... then I don't know why it's not going down if I don't give him d3 anymore. He's had 2 blood works sent to a lab ( April and May, costing a bundle) and they both have came back negative...organs functioning properly. It makes sense the timing on the d3 and him getting sick and research showing the same. What still doesn't make sense is why isn't he getting better when he's getting more food choices/gutloaded with Mazuri, tube feeding a animal powder with nutrients - vet says vitamins may be off and calcium a little. (ill get the name when i call tomorrow), and new 5.0 repti sun bulb as of last week and natural sun too. :/ ( Been 2 weeks for new routine)

Maybe all the injections, oral medicine and stress isn't helping him to feel better. :/ Still just curious what else it could be or why it's taking so long to get better. I know these guys can take a longer recovery period, but I'm wondering if he just is getting worse and won't get better. I'm gonna keep fighting and asking questions and getting the vet to try new angles. Something isn't right. Timing is short too.

 

[AsiaKauffman]

Forgot to include. No x-ray done, but 2nd vet says he may have a little calcium problem. He's always been a strong little guy but since January, lethargic, sluggish and bloated.

1st vet said no need for calcium at all if bugs are being supplemented correctly.
All the research told me I should supplement, but learn how to do it properly.

 

[Action Jackson]

I see you live in SD. Have you tried putting him outside during the day? I had a Adult male Jackson that I kept outside pretty much year round. After moving him inside he developed edema. I moved him back outside and it seemed to help. I try to keep all my Chams outside when temps at night are consistently over 50 at night.