Male Panther Exhibiting Weakness and Fatigue

DanoHeinkel

Member
Your Chameleon - Male Ambilobe Panther, 3 years old. 7” N/V; 198 grams. I bought Mingo 3 years ago from Kammerflage Kreations when he was about 2 months old. I’ve had a stellar experience with Kammerflage!

◦ Handling - About once every 2 weeks.

◦ Feeding - 10-12 Crickets and every other days and a few Dubia Roaches and horn worms once per week. Cricket and Dubia Gut loading using cricket crack, Oranges, Melon, Zucchini, Carrots, Apples, sweet potatoes, dandelion, kale and spinach. I try to have cricket crack, one veggie and one fruit in the cricket enclosure at all times.

◦ Supplements - Repashy CalciumPlus (with every feeding), Fluker’s liquid vitamin supplement (one per week for the last 2 weeks; vet reccommended). I’ve had a tenuous relationship with supplements due to Mingo’s history with Gular Edema (read more below)

◦ Watering - 1 nozzle Mist King system set to shower 10 minute at 8:30; 3 minutes at 12:30, and 4:30.

◦ Fecal Description - Stool is firm with white urate. Had a smear and float done last week: negative for bacterial infection and parasites.

◦ History - Mingo had a long bout with Gular Edema about 2 years ago (at age 9 mo.). His edema and subsequent tongue issues lasted for about 8 months. In that span of time, I took him to 4 vets until I found one that has had experience with herps. We did a blood test, altered his lighting, gave him antibiotics, and finally a regimen of calcium and Fluker’s Reptile Vitamin Supplements. After a few months on supplements, the edema and tongue issues subsided. My best guest (and the educated guesses of many on this forum) was that he had Hypovitiminosis A. Still can’t tell for sure though. Here are the threads detailing those issues:
#1: https://www.chameleonforums.com/threads/difficulty-treating-edema.162932/
#2: https://www.chameleonforums.com/thr...dema-and-tongue-problems.164159/#post-1418590
He was perfectly healthy for about a full year.

Cage Info:

◦ Cage Type
- 24x24x48 all screen enclosure. Pictures below.

◦ Lighting - 100 watt zoo-med basking bulb; 12” zoo-med t5 HO 5.0 UVB bulb. Lighting is on a 12 hour timer (7am-7pm).
UV bulb is 12” from his highest perch.

◦ Temperature - Cage floor sits about 75°, with the basking spot at 88° (Measured using digital thermometer and laser thermometer). Lowest overnight temp is 72°.

◦ Humidity - Humidity ranges from 45% to 65% after mistings. Measured using a digital hydrometer.

◦ Plants - 2 Pothos, 1 Croton Nervia, 1 Schefflera.

◦ Placement - Mingo’s enclosure is located in a large laundry room that that doesn’t receive much foot traffic. The air vent is across the room, about 6’ away. The top of the enclosure is 7’ from the ground.

◦ Location - Nashville, TN.

Current Problem - For the last 8 months, Mingo has shown signs of increasing weakness. It's gotten worse in the last month: he doesn’t like to traverse his cage as much, he is slow to react to visual stimulus, he slowly slips down his sleeping branch at night, and he has been laying on his stomach during basking with his legs dangling from the branch (pictured below). He stays pretty dark in color. He is still eating well, though not with the strong appetite he has had in the past. Mingo looks thinner than he ever has (with ribs and spine visible). All of this has me very, very concerned. I'm afraid if something doesn't happen soon, he may not make it.

I have been to the vet 3 times in the last few months to search for answers but the vet (who has been very helpful and knowledgeable in the past) has been unable to help. He keeps saying that his best guess is that Mingo is going into brumation. Fecal floats at each appointment yielded negative results for bacterial and parasitic infections. At my first appointment, he gave me liquid calcium supplements to be given to Mingo twice per week and recommended I begin supplementing with the Fluker’s Liquid Vitamin Supplement again. I continued through the 2 week regimen that he prescribed and stopped. I started him on the same regiment about a week ago.

Clarifying questions are welcome; any help you could offer would be so appreciated!
 

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Also Repashy CalciumPlus has a lot of calcium for every feeding may be catching up with him.
Yes, that was my first reaction as well... I can't help but reject that diagnosis from an otherwise trustworthy and knowledgeable doc. Thanks for the feedback on the calcium supplement. Do you think hypercalcemia could be the problem? Hadn't considered that. Thank you!
 
I'm very new to the nutrition of chameleons, but I wonder if some of the supplementation might be part of the problem. He's getting D3 with every feeding from the Repashy CalciumPlus, plus an additional dose of D3 in the liquid vitamin. Could he be having symptoms of hypercalcemia from oversupplementation of D3? http://www.uvma.org/chameleon/vitamind3.htm
Vitamin D3 and A interact in in calcium regulation. Your chameleon is also getting hefty doses of Vitamin A. http://www.uvma.org/chameleon/vitaminA.htm
Here is what I found about the content within your supplements.

Repashy CalciumPlus:
Guaranteed Analysis: Crude Protein min. .2%, Crude Fat min. .2%, Crude Fiber max. 4%, Moisture max. 8%, Calcium min. 17%, Vitamin A min. 200,000 IU/lb, Vitamin D min. 20,000 IU/lb, Vitamin E min. 2,000 IU/lb.

Fluker's liquid vitamin:
  • Vitamin A. . . 913,240 IU
  • Vitamin D3. . . 73,060 IU
  • Vitamin B1. . . 548 mg
  • Vitamin B2. . . 785 mg
  • Vitamin B6. . . 182 mg
  • Vitamin C. . . 9130 mg
  • Nicotinamide. . . 3652 mg
So is the excess D3 leading high serum calcium levels and thus the some of the weakness and lethargy that he's showing? And if you had enough UVB exposure would any D3 supplementation be necessary at all? https://chameleonacademy.com/basics-chameleon-nutrition/
 
Lighting - 100 watt zoo-med basking bulb; 12” zoo-med t5 HO 5.0 UVB bulb. Lighting is on a 12 hour timer (7am-7pm).
UV bulb is 12” from his highest perch.
◦ Supplements - Repashy CalciumPlus (with every feeding), Fluker’s liquid vitamin supplement (one per week for the last 2 weeks; vet reccommended). I’ve had a tenuous relationship with supplements due to Mingo’s history with Gular Edema (read more below)

So two things stand out for me.

You only have a 12 inch T5... You can basically cancel out the 2 inches on the ends of the bulb because the output is lower there. So this is giving him an 8 inch basking zone right below the t5. Also your using a 5.0 at 12 inches away. This is going to give a UVI level of approximately 1.5-2 at that distance. Ideally you want a 24 inch T5 and a 5.0 or 6% bulb and highest basking should be 9 inches to give a 3 UVI. This fixture should run across the middle of the cage giving more areas of contact.

Then there are the supplements. I know why you give the repashy calcium plus. That is a recommendation by Kammerflage. But they also use T8's on their chams. Much much lower UVI output. We have been seeing issues with Veileds and Panthers on repashy calcium plus and calcium plus loD getting edema, weakness, and lack of energy. The repashy calcium plus is an all in one.. So everything is put into this formulation. Vitamins including A, Calcium with D3... Both of these are fat soluble so they store in the body and do not flush out like water soluble vitamins and minerals. They actually have a toxic effect on them when there is too much.

Those that have been taken off of it seem to recover completely. I recommend using a multivitamin like reptivite with D3 two times a month say the 1st and the 15th and then at all other feedings using a calcium without D3. Repticalcium makes a No D3 version.
 
In the threads that you linked to you got good advice.
The gular edema looks better in the photos in this thread.

The most common reason for a chameleon to hang it's legs off the branches is gout. In a the one thread it was indicated that the uric acid levels were night which would go along with this. I'm not a vet...you need a vet to confirm this. I'm also wondering if all the meds he's been on could be part of that problem?
 
This is all very thought-provoking. Thank you so much for your feedback! I'm thinking it may be gout due to high D3... The articles shared by @DocZ and this article helped me see how gout could be the problem. I'm sad, to say the least... This is so hard. Sounds like the prognosis for advanced gout (or pseudogout) isn't good.
But I'm so thankful for these suggestions. Any thoughts on that initial conclusion? Thoughts on next steps?
Here's my gameplan so far:
  • Increase water intake
  • But new UV hood with a longer 5.0 t8 bulb (instead of t5)
  • Cease all supplementation
  • Visit vet to discuss gout possibility, treatment

Thank you all so, so much.
 
There is one piece that doesn't fit in the puzzle though: The few months that I WASN'T supplementing him at all (following his recovery from edema) were the months that he began his sluggish behavior. That is what led the vet to recommend supplementing again in the last month (which is when I began using Calcium plus and Liquid Vitamin supplements). Could the edema have been caused by renal failure that has escalated to cause gout (for which the supplements are not helping but hurting)?
 
There is one piece that doesn't fit in the puzzle though: The few months that I WASN'T supplementing him at all (following his recovery from edema) were the months that he began his sluggish behavior. That is what led the vet to recommend supplementing again in the last month (which is when I began using Calcium plus and Liquid Vitamin supplements). Could the edema have been caused by renal failure that has escalated to cause gout (for which the supplements are not helping but hurting)?
But wasn't the time with no supplements around the time the chameleon was on all the meds?
 
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