Male Panther Exhibiting Weakness and Fatigue

Beman

Chameleon Enthusiast
This is all very thought-provoking. Thank you so much for your feedback! I'm thinking it may be gout due to high D3... The articles shared by @DocZ and this article helped me see how gout could be the problem. I'm sad, to say the least... This is so hard. Sounds like the prognosis for advanced gout (or pseudogout) isn't good.
But I'm so thankful for these suggestions. Any thoughts on that initial conclusion? Thoughts on next steps?
Here's my gameplan so far:
  • Increase water intake
  • But new UV hood with a longer 5.0 t8 bulb (instead of t5)
  • Cease all supplementation
  • Visit vet to discuss gout possibility, treatment

Thank you all so, so much.
There is one piece that doesn't fit in the puzzle though: The few months that I WASN'T supplementing him at all (following his recovery from edema) were the months that he began his sluggish behavior. That is what led the vet to recommend supplementing again in the last month (which is when I began using Calcium plus and Liquid Vitamin supplements). Could the edema have been caused by renal failure that has escalated to cause gout (for which the supplements are not helping but hurting)?

Personally I would not switch down to a T8. The limited UVB exposure your providing now and at the distance you have it is basically providing the same UVI that a T8 would be. I would upgrade your T5 though to a 24 inch with a 5.0 or 6% UVB bulb and place basking 9 inches below. This gives more coverage of the entire cage rather then one little section. more on lighting https://chameleonacademy.com/chameleon-cage-set-up-replicating-the-sun/

I think you should try to switch to a non all in one supplementation routine. Calcium without D3 at all feedings except two times a month give reptivite with D3 say the 1st and the 15th of the month. Reptivite is a multivitamin and D3.

The sluggish behavior when you weren't supplementing him could very well be linked to the low UVI levels he was exposed to and limited area of exposure.

Right now you are giving him a ton of supplementation though between the calcium plus and the liquid from the vet. Unfortunately only time allows D3 and A to flush from the system since they are fat soluble.

Not sure if you found this blog https://www.chameleonforums.com/blogs/d3-poisoning.2401/
 

DanoHeinkel

Member
But wasn't the time with no supplements around the time the chameleon was on all the meds?
No, it was after all of the meds had been administered. I will be looking into the timeline over the weekend to get a clearer picture. I'll share more then, hopefully.
 

DanoHeinkel

Member
Personally I would not switch down to a T8. The limited UVB exposure your providing now and at the distance you have it is basically providing the same UVI that a T8 would be. I would upgrade your T5 though to a 24 inch with a 5.0 or 6% UVB bulb and place basking 9 inches below. This gives more coverage of the entire cage rather then one little section. more on lighting https://chameleonacademy.com/chameleon-cage-set-up-replicating-the-sun/

I think you should try to switch to a non all in one supplementation routine. Calcium without D3 at all feedings except two times a month give reptivite with D3 say the 1st and the 15th of the month. Reptivite is a multivitamin and D3.

The sluggish behavior when you weren't supplementing him could very well be linked to the low UVI levels he was exposed to and limited area of exposure.

Right now you are giving him a ton of supplementation though between the calcium plus and the liquid from the vet. Unfortunately only time allows D3 and A to flush from the system since they are fat soluble.

Not sure if you found this blog https://www.chameleonforums.com/blogs/d3-poisoning.2401/
Thank you, @Beman, I think you're onto something. Mingo's fatigue roughly lines up with getting a larger enclosure. Decreased UVI access could be a culprit here. Ordering a new hood this weekend. Will stick with t5 and see what happens. Thanks for your thoughtfulness!

I had not seen that blog post. So helpful.
 

Beman

Chameleon Enthusiast
Thank you, @Beman, I think you're onto something. Mingo's fatigue roughly lines up with getting a larger enclosure. Decreased UVI access could be a culprit here. Ordering a new hood this weekend. Will stick with t5 and see what happens. Thanks for your thoughtfulness!

I had not seen that blog post. So helpful.
Just be careful with the supplements... Others have had very poor outcomes and the link is the Calcium plus... I really think some chams have a harder time with that much supplementation. It is not always a 1 thing fits all if you know what I mean. I would consider going to the standard supplementation and see if he perks up with that and the correct UVI being provided.
 

DanoHeinkel

Member
But wasn't the time with no supplements around the time the chameleon was on all the meds?

Here's a lengthy timeline I was able to put together this weekend. Might be helpful if you're willing to tolerate the deluge of info. Thank you all so much for your time and care!

3/19/18 - 1st Dr A visit - 1 MLs of Furosemide (to reduce swelling) .15 MLs of Baytril by mouth for 7 days. Mingo became very lethargic so the vet recommended we stop the furosemide after 2 doses.

3/24/18 - 2nd Dr A visit - fecal smear/float: clean. He gave me the option to do a prednisone steroid shot to address possible infection causing the swelling. I declined. I thought Baytril, furosemide and prednisone sounded like an awful cocktail to treat a hunch. Dr A wasn’t willing to do a blood or edema fluid test.

3/25/18 - 1st forum post - Started more serious gut loading using fresh veggies and cricket crack. Started feeding more Dubia and Black Soldier Fly larvae.

Dr A out of ideas; Referred me to Dr B

4/1/18 - 1st Dr B visit -
1 dose Meloxicam, (to see if the swelling was inflammation due to injury)

4/10/18 - 2nd Dr B visit - Recommended 10 doses of Fenbendasol to de-worm Mingo. I told her that his previous float was clean. I asked if we should do another fecal float before treating him for parasites. She was visibly angry that I had raised an objection. She demanded that I give him the Fenbendasol. I took it home but didn't administer it.

4/20/2018 - 3rd Dr B visit - 1 Baytril injection and Pedialite. She was convinced that the tongue had herniated into the gular pouch and recommended CT Scan ($800). She was unwilling to consider a blood test or testing the edema fluid as an alternative means of diagnosing the issue. She said I should either get the CT scan or see another vet. I asked to be referred. Researched and found Dr T.

4/30/18 - 1st Dr T visit - drained 10 ML of edema fluid for testing. Determined that it was Transudate fluid; not infection-related.

6/4/18 - 2nd Dr T - blood test and fecal test - started Fluker’s vitamin supplement twice per week (2 drops per 50 Grams of Chameleon’s weight) and 5 MLs of a vitamin B complex mixed with water daily for 3 days. fecal smear/float: clean. Blood test results linked in forum thread #2.

6/7/2018 - 2nd forum post - Reduced feeding to every 3 days. Started fasting Mingo periodically. Got infrared thermometer and dialed in basking spot. Stopped all repashy supplements. Gave the first dose of vitamin A (retinal palmitate) one drop per day for 3 days. Increased mister time by 100%.

6/17/19 - 3rd Dr T visit - Said to continue liquid vitamin drops and added liquid calcium drops (one drop twice per week).

7/25/18 - Mingo has greatly improved! Edema just about gone, tongue back to normal. Continued giving Fluker’s vitamin supplement per vet’s instruction one per week until 8/25/18

11/19/19 - 4th Dr T visit -
First visit to address loss of appetite, sluggishness. Dr T thought it was a sort of brumation. Suggested increasing heat bulb from 50 to 75 watt. Discussed increasing enclosure size. Started supplementing with Calcium plus again.

2/15/20 - New enclosure finished.

Mingo’s health continues to decline. Begins getting thinner despite eating well. I began to think that parasites could be the issue.

6/26/20 - 5th Dr T visit - fecal smear/float: clean. Recommends starting liquid Vitamin supplement and liquid calcium supplement again once per week. Did for 2 weeks and stopped until I can get a plan together.

7/5/20 - 3rd forum post
  • Stopped using calcium plus
  • Increased water intake
  • Ordered new UV hood with a longer 5.0 t5 bulb
  • Began 3-5 hours per week outdoors getting some natural rays
  • Ceased all supplementation
  • Will visit vet to discuss gout possibility, treatment
Any thoughts as you see the whole timeline together? Sorry I didn't have this to kick off the thread. Thank you all again for the gift of your time!
 
Last edited:

Beman

Chameleon Enthusiast
Here's a lengthy timeline I was able to put together this weekend. Might be helpful if you're willing to tolerate the deluge of info. Thank you all so much for your time and care!

3/19/18 - 1st Dr A visit - 1 MLs of Furosemide (to reduce swelling) .15 MLs of Baytril by mouth for 7 days. Mingo became very lethargic so the vet recommended we stop the furosemide after 2 doses.

3/24/18 - 2nd Dr A visit - fecal smear/float: clean. He gave me the option to do a prednisone steroid shot to address possible infection causing the swelling. I declined. I thought Baytril, furosemide and prednisone sounded like an awful cocktail to treat a hunch. Dr A wasn’t willing to do a blood or edema fluid test.

3/25/18 - 1st forum post - Started more serious gut loading using fresh veggies and cricket crack. Started feeding more Dubia and Black Soldier Fly larvae.

Dr A out of ideas; Referred me to Dr B

4/1/18 - 1st Dr B visit -
1 dose Meloxicam, (to see if the swelling was inflammation due to injury)

4/10/18 - 2nd Dr B visit - Recommended 10 doses of Fenbendasol to de-worm Mingo. I told her that his previous float was clean. I asked if we should do another fecal float before treating him for parasites. She was visibly angry that I had raised an objection. She demanded that I give him the Fenbendasol. I took it home but didn't administer it.

4/20/2018 - 3rd Dr B visit - 1 Baytril injection and Pedialite. She was convinced that the tongue had herniated into the gular pouch and recommended CT Scan ($800). She was unwilling to consider a blood test or testing the edema fluid as an alternative means of diagnosing the issue. She said I should either get the CT scan or see another vet. I asked to be referred. Researched and found Dr T.

4/30/18 - 1st Dr T visit - drained 10 ML of edema fluid for testing. Determined that it was Transudate fluid; not infection-related.

6/4/18 - 2nd Dr T - blood test and fecal test - started Fluker’s vitamin supplement twice per week (2 drops per 50 Grams of Chameleon’s weight) and 5 MLs of a vitamin B complex mixed with water daily for 3 days. fecal smear/float: clean. Blood test results linked in forum thread #2.

6/7/2018 - 2nd forum post - Reduced feeding to every 3 days. Started fasting Mingo periodically. Got infrared thermometer and dialed in basking spot. Stopped all repashy supplements. Gave the first dose of vitamin A (retinal palmitate) one drop per day for 3 days. Increased mister time by 100%.

6/17/19 - 3rd Dr T visit - Said to continue liquid vitamin drops and added liquid calcium drops (one drop twice per week).

7/25/18 - Mingo has greatly improved! Edema just about gone, tongue back to normal. Continued giving Fluker’s vitamin supplement per vet’s instruction one per week until 8/25/18

11/19/19 - 4th Dr T visit -
First visit to address loss of appetite, sluggishness. Dr T thought it was a sort of brumation. Suggested increasing heat bulb from 50 to 75 watt. Discussed increasing enclosure size. Started supplementing with Calcium plus again.

2/15/20 - New enclosure finished.

Mingo’s health continues to decline. Begins getting thinner despite eating well. I began to think that parasites could be the issue.

6/26/20 - 5th Dr T visit - fecal smear/float: clean. Recommends starting liquid Vitamin supplement and liquid calcium supplement again once per week. Did for 2 weeks and stopped until I can get a plan together.

7/5/20 - 3rd forum post
  • Stopped using calcium plus
  • Increased water intake
  • Ordered new UV hood with a longer 5.0 t5 bulb
  • Began 3-5 hours per week outdoors getting some natural rays
  • Ceased all supplementation
  • Will visit vet to discuss gout possibility, treatment
Any thoughts as you see the whole timeline together? Sorry I didn't have this to kick off the thread. Thank you all again for the gift of your time!
Wowwwww that is a whole lot of treatment and none seemed to really have a definite this is what it is. I wish arcadia supplements were easier to get a hold of. Right now not so much in the USA though. EarthPro-A is a great supplement. No D3 and no vit A.

I really think going off the repashy is a good thing. It will take a good month for the D3 and vit A to leave his system from the repashy. And getting the longer T5. Make sure your basking branch is 9 inches down from the fixture for a 3-4 UVI level. I think you will find the outdoor time is really helpful for him. Perks them up quite a bit.
 
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