Veiled Chameleons and Hibernation/Brumation

[Brad Ramsey]

Not exactly a timely topic (it being summer) but it's one that I have been thinking about for a few months, and plan to do some careful experimentation with this winter.
I have reason to believe that veiled chameleons do possibly need a period of brumation.
Temperatures in the winter in their natural habitat do approach and often reach freezing. In reported expeditions at those times, chameleons were not found. It is believed (possibly observed, but I have no substantial info) that they go down from the trees and seek out protected areas in rock crevices, etc.
I think this could explain a lot in regard to lethargy at certain times of the year and also "hunger strikes".
I am curious to find out if actually decreasing temps and stopping food availability for 2 or 3 months would be beneficial in any way.
This period would occur during the shortest daylight hours of the year, possibly the end of October through December.
Still working on the scope of my actual practical experiment. I am a little nervous about creating conditions that would be too extreme.
Anyway ... it will be the subject of a future article.
Any thoughts?

-Brad

 

[Day Man]

let them play in the snow! Never mind, thats probably a bad idea. Interesting subject though

 

[Tygerr]

Brad, I've also been pondering the brumation theory for a while now. There is a definite change in their behaviour when winter sets in. I'm pretty sure it may be the cause of most hunger strikes, especially in Veileds. It's winter here now, and as soon as the temps dropped significantly just over a month ago, my male Veiled started eating less. His weight has remained fairly constant, but his activitly levels have been a lot lower - he seems to be eating just to maintain. He did it last year too, and as soon as Spring came along his appetite seemed to return. By mid-summer he was quite a voracious eater again.
There are a lot of variables though - that's why it's always hard to tell definitively. When Spring came along last year I also changed my UV bulbs - I couldn't tell whether the possible increased UV levels stimulated his appetite.

I had a chat with my vet about it the other day and he says that he likes to let them slow down over winter. Lower temps, less food. His reasoning was the same as yours: it's what they experience in the wild.

I think the reason this hasn't been experimented with as a husbandry technique is
a) because as you mentioned, it's difficult to tell what sort of levels are acceptable. The ambient temps in the Middle East might drop off significantly, but what are conditions like in the micro-climates where the chameleons dwell? I certainly don't want to use my pets a guinea pigs
b) I don't think the brumation period applies to all species (Madagascar's temps certainly don't vary as much as they do in the Middle East or Southern Africa), so keepers who may have experienced mixed results with brumation may not have attributed those mixed results with the needs of the individual species.
c) Many keepers have kept animals that have thrived for many years without applying any form of brumation. How can you tell whether it has actually enhanced the reptiles health/longevity?

I certainly think that is in an avenue in chameleon husbandry that needs further exploration.

 

[Chameleons Northwest]

Well, it sounds very interesting to me. I would want to contact other seasoned keepers and get their thoughts.

The only info (very vague) on chameleonnews that I found was from 2 Q&A posts:
http://www.chameleonnews.com/new/?page=article&id=127

It is also addressed in this earlier thread (including your comments, Brad):
https://www.chameleonforums.com/temperature-threshold-8271/index2.html

I see in that thread that some keepers do adjust their lights and such during the winter. Hopefully they will chime in here.

What may be interesting is to get several trust worthy keepers involved. Do more research and bump heads. Then map out a feasible study plan, with specific parameters. Enact your plan together. KEEP A BLOG on this forum. Make necessary adjustments as you go along.

I for one would be very interested in participating in such a study. We would need a control group, and a study group. I have 2.2 veiled chameleons here. They are of different ages, however. And specific birthdates are unknown. Depending on how professional the study should be, the participants should perhaps be clutchmates? One reason being that different individual chameleons may hale from bloodlines which originated in slightly different climates.

We have witnessed so much concern on this forum with keepers dealing with hunger strikes that I think it is worth looking into.

But I don't know how well received the data would be if the participants are of different ages and bloodlines. But, if several of us participate, using our own chams, it is at least a start. We could start with a semi-casual, though structured study (with no control group), but with specific parameters and a daily or weekly blog, take a look at the results next year, and proceed from there.

A more formal study would probably require animals from the same clutch, with some participating in the study agenda, and the others as a control group.

Your timing is good, Brad, in that it would take some time to get everyone's thoughts and experience together if we wanted to have an organized study ready by winter. There is strength in numbers, and much more data could be gleaned and compared with a study that involved multiple participants.

When veiled cham keepers write with alarm about slow-downs and hunger strikes, it would be nice to have specific seasonal suggestions/directions to give them, and to let them know it is actually normal, predictable, cham behavior.

ONE THOUGHT- wouldn't it be possible to check the weather in Yemen, for instance, each day (in the area the bloodlines are believed to have originated) and match our own daily sunrise/sunset, highs and lows, with Yemen's temps for that region each day? Or, as close as possible, since it is tricky to micromanage temperatures even in a tiny controlled environment.

 

[topknot20]

Im glad that this question has come up because I wondered about this about five years ago when I first got into veileds. As I was doing research about how best to replicate a veileds natural climate in captivity I stumbled on to this web site that had climactic histories for a bunch of yemenese cities. As you go through the past years their are many flucuations in temperature. The only way to really answer the question is to understand the natural climate of the home range. Obviously in most captive animals their behavior can vary greatly from that of the wild. Some of my veileds have never go on hunger strikes some have but in my experince I have regularly seen behavior changes during the winter months. Being here in Colorado, the seasons are more defined than say florida where the climate fluctuates less. there could be many triggers of a burmation peroid as seasons change too such as; temp changes, pressure fluctuations, sun exposure, latitude,elevation or all of these things. But for veiled keepers the burmation or behavior changes would be different geographically. Just my two cents!

Heres the link to the weather page theres a history and almanac section that may help set some of your temperature parameters Brad.

http://www.wunderground.com/global/stations/41452.html#History

 

[Brad Ramsey]

Fantastic!
I love where this is going and I would love to have several keepers participating in this study.
Please state on this thread if you would like to participate and we'll go from there.
Gesang: I should have babies here next spring ... perhaps some in November.
My experience with babies in the winter is that they are not effected.
Definitely have some clutch mates ready for the following winter though.

-Brad

 

[Mcfluffin]

Interesting thread this one...

The first chameleon book I got (before I had a chameleon) had a section about hibernating chameleons...saying which species required it and which didn't. It suggested that the life expectancy of the animal was increased...Since then I have never heard anyone mention it, so I thought in practice it wasn't necessary...but maybe it's worth a go with hardier animals like yemens

 

[kinyonga]

Parson's chameleon...brumation....scan down...
http://www.answers.com/topic/parson-s-chameleon
"Courtship and copulation begin from two to four months after winter brumation (dormancy) ends".

Common chameleon...scan down for brumation...
http://www.answers.com/topic/common-chameleon
"Specimens exposed to seasonal temperatures near freezing experience a dormant period (brumation) until temperatures become warmer. As they return to normal activity, males seek females for mating."

http://books.google.ca/books?id=8Wk...&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=7&ct=result

http://www.afriherp.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=167

 

[Brad Ramsey]

Thanks Lynda!

-Brad

 

[Tygerr]

ONE THOUGHT- wouldn't it be possible to check the weather in Yemen, for instance, each day (in the area the bloodlines are believed to have originated) and match our own daily sunrise/sunset, highs and lows, with Yemen's temps for that region each day? Or, as close as possible, since it is tricky to micromanage temperatures even in a tiny controlled environment.

The problem with this idea is that you would only be replicating the ambient temperatures in Yemen, but you still wouldn't have any idea of the specific micro-climates in which the chams might be living in during those conditions.

Lynda, I think you put it best in that Afriherp post of yours:
"In the wild the reptile has quite a bit of control over where it goes to
hibernate (or burmate) but in captivity its more difficult
to allow them that freedom or to make sure that we aren't missing
something that they need to survive the hibernation or brumation. For
instance, if a turtle is too cold at the depth that it has dug its hole,
it can move deeper into the ground. We have the animal caged/trapped
into a confined space when we brumate or hibernate...thus we cut down on
its option of choice to select the appropriate place to survive."
(BTW Lynda, once again your insights and experience are really fascinating. I'll say it again: you should write a book!)

In theory, we could get our cages to mimic the ambient temperatures they would be exposed to in the wild, but would the rest of the conditions we provide them with be adequate for a brumation period. What if the cooler temps make them want to "burrow into the ground to sleep"?

Even if we did get it right, I still wonder whether it would really make any significant difference to the health/longevity of the animals. Already, many keepers are able to keep Veileds to ripe old ages, some well in excess of 5 years. This is already well beyond the average lifespan of wild chameleons. Would brumation be able to add much more?

Either way, like I said earlier, I do think this is an area of husbandry that is worth exploring: even if it doesn't provide significant health benefits to the cham, it may at least teach us more about their behaviour in captivity and possibly explain certain things, like hunger-strikes perhaps.

There is a guy here in Jo'burg who has been breeding Veileds (as well as Panthers, Carpets and Jacksons) for a while now. His entire operation is outdoors (though he does move chams inside overnight when the temps are particularly low). Since our climate here is a lot more temperate than the breeders in Florida who have outdoor operations, I wonder if he might have any insight to add to this topic? He is away on vacation on the moment, but when he returns I'll ask him to share some his observations with us.

 

[Mael]

This is a facinating topic for sure and a great read. I definitely noticed a marked change in the activity of my Veiled during the very pronounced transition from Winter to Summer up here in Canada.

I was just wondering, what kinds of changes do you make to your Chams environment during the summer months? With the drastic change in light per day (8am-6pm to 6am-9pm) I've adjusted my automated lighting system to offer a bit more light daily, both early in the morning and later into the night to corrospond to the actual daylight that filters into my apartment from outside.

This also corrosponds to different sleeping habits I've been noticing in my Cham over the past month. (staying up later!) Does anyone else do this sort of light/heat regulation?

 

[pesto]

hibernation

My veil seems to have put himself in hibernation. He has slowed down his eating over the last month. A couple of weeks ago he buried himself in the dirt. Of course i really didnt get it so i pulled him out. However now he is laying limb, alive and a bright green color. Has this happened to anyone else with success?

 

[fluxlizard]

If he's bright green- maybe he's a female who was trying to lay eggs...

 

[kinyonga]

Its not normal to bury itself in the ground. Even a female only digs a tunnel to lay eggs. If its laying limp its in trouble. Please post a photo and answer the questions in the how to ask for help thread at the top of the health forum.

 

[pesto]

Yes im sure he is a male. Vet confirmed. My habitat is good. My lighting and heat is good. Im not asking about my chameleon. I was just curious if others went into hibernation.

 

[distortionz]

I'm no vet but that chameleon looks sick. Not in hibernation

 

[kinyonga]

I can only say get it to a vet asap. That chameleon needs help.
There seems to be a swelling on the lower right leg and possibly MBD but I can't be sure because of the angle of the photo.

 

[fluxlizard]

He looks wrong to me also, and something about the way he is sitting looks off too.

 

[Angelwolf]

Hi folks. I have a male veiled who is about 9 months old. He has been very happy and healthy any growing steadily. However, for the past 2 weeks or so, I have noticed that he does a lot more sitting on his vines, or hanging on the side of his cage. His cage is adequate size and filled with live plants. The temperatures where I live (NW PA, right on Lake Erie) have dropped drastically over the same period of time, so I slightly increased the temperature and humidity. I have learned a lot from this thread, but my concern is that my cham seems to have his eyes closed all the time. They are sunken in, until you disturb him, or until he decides to move. But even when he does become more active and is climbing around, his eyes still seem to be closed! He does still eat, although much less, and has his normal "happy" color pattern. He was strong and vigorous (and very angry!) when I pulled him out and tried to clean his eyes with a damp washcloth. But he still doesn't seem to open them. There is never any discharge from anywhere, eyes, nose, mouth, and his vent is clean, so I don't think it is any kind of infection. Is this just brumation/hibernation behavior? I don't want to pluck him from his cage and take him through the stresses of going to the vet (who has seen him a few months back and said he looked quite healthy) in the later part of fall. The temps have only been in the 50s (30s at night) and getting colder. So taking him out right now is kind of the last thing I want to do right now. So, do they keep their eyes closed when they hibernate, or am I missing something? Thanks in advance for your input!

 

[Nursemaia]

Hi folks. I have a male veiled who is about 9 months old. He has been very happy and healthy any growing steadily. However, for the past 2 weeks or so, I have noticed that he does a lot more sitting on his vines, or hanging on the side of his cage. His cage is adequate size and filled with live plants. The temperatures where I live (NW PA, right on Lake Erie) have dropped drastically over the same period of time, so I slightly increased the temperature and humidity. I have learned a lot from this thread, but my concern is that my cham seems to have his eyes closed all the time. They are sunken in, until you disturb him, or until he decides to move. But even when he does become more active and is climbing around, his eyes still seem to be closed! He does still eat, although much less, and has his normal "happy" color pattern. He was strong and vigorous (and very angry!) when I pulled him out and tried to clean his eyes with a damp washcloth. But he still doesn't seem to open them. There is never any discharge from anywhere, eyes, nose, mouth, and his vent is clean, so I don't think it is any kind of infection. Is this just brumation/hibernation behavior? I don't want to pluck him from his cage and take him through the stresses of going to the vet (who has seen him a few months back and said he looked quite healthy) in the later part of fall. The temps have only been in the 50s (30s at night) and getting colder. So taking him out right now is kind of the last thing I want to do right now. So, do they keep their eyes closed when they hibernate, or am I missing something? Thanks in advance for your input!View attachment 169034

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