Laurie's first poop/urate...*sniffle*

[warpdrive]

Hi everyone,

I'm wrighting this with tears in my eyes...
I've had a long night, and now day as well.

Laurie was fine all day yesterday.
her color was good and she was active.
I'm sure she ate 3 out of 4, 3 to 4 week old crickets, but didn't drink infront of me...no big deal.

I went into my bedroom to mist her cage for the forth time and hour before lights out...only to find her on the floor on her side breathing heavy.
I touched her to see if she would move away from me and she tryed to climb up but did a "back flip" back to the bottom.
she could not hold onto a vine regardless that her grip is so strong, due to she would do back flips like she was drunk.

if I left her alone she would keep trying to climb up and fall before she can get any higher then an inch or two off the bottom.
I couldn't leave her like this so I tryed to prevent her from climbing and hoped she would just calm down and rest.

she was real dark as I'll show you from last night...

she was acting drunk and could not walk uprite.
the sides of her body were banging on the bottom of the cage if she tryed to walk. bang, on the right side, bang on the left.
I ate dinner two hours late due to trying to protect her.
after this she seemed to calm down and just rested on the bottom of the cage that I now had on it's side so if she climbed she wouldn't have far to go.
after a few mins, I checked on her again to find her on a vine like nothing happened.

I was on the phone with the real Laurie the whole night...bless her heart.

I checked up on her in the middle of the night to find her still sleeping on the vine.
when she woke up in the morning she was fine like nothing happened for the next two hours.
she didn't drink from misting, and went after the dripper I set up, but desided not to get wet.

but she fell (again???) two hours after she woke up.
turned dark again, had the same symtomes as the night before just not as bad.
I took her out of the cage and placed her on my carpet and she layed on her side for a while.
when she would walk it was the same as last night but not as bad...not banging her sides, but it was like she was a leaf swaying in the wind.

Oh, she pooped ....

yes, it's that bad.
tell me I'm wrong, but it's like she has not drank in days/weeks.

I got a dropper and was able to get one good drop in her mouth when she hissed at me...she swallowed it well.
the real Laurie called me and taught me how to force some more water into her, but after 1 or 2 tiny swallows I had to let her rest...she was white as a ghost when I was doing this and wanted to leave her alone.

I put her back on the carpet and she was fine for about an hour just walking around alot better.
I went to go get a drink for myself about 30 mins later, and she was gone!!!!
my day just went from bad to OMG WTF!!!

I looked everyplace with my flashlight and couldn't find her.
after checking under the couch 3 times I got up off the floor and she comes running out from underneath the couch right onto my bare foot and up my leg.

she's now back in her cage like nothing happened, upsidedown under the basking light.

my temps are good, my lighting is good, I even spoke to the breeder on the phone and in PMs and my room temps and lighting is the same as hers.

my big question is...has anyone had a cham act this way when they are deeply dehydrated?

Harry

 

[Syn]

I had the same thing happen to my panther when it got too warm. Can't find the thread. I hope things start getting better for you soon.

 

[Nicodemayo]

Wow I am really sorry. I think the best thing you can do at this point is mist with warm water, feed her like normal, and give her space. Handling her and forcing water into her is just making her more stressed than she probably already is. If she doesn't improve, its time to see a vet. Best wishes to you and Laurie 2

-Nic

 

[laurie]

Wow I am really sorry. I think the best thing you can do at this point is mist with warm water, feed her like normal, and give her space. Handling her and forcing water into her is just making her more stressed than she probably already is. If she doesn't improve, its time to see a vet. Best wishes to you and Laurie 2

-Nic

Harry, Nic may be right, he knows a lot more about chameleons than I do. But since you just got her I would talk to the breeder you got her from and see if they will exchange her for a healthy one. You should not get a cham for a good breeder and have these problems to the point of needing vet care. Just my opinion.

 

[warpdrive]

I'm more then willing to leave her alone as long as she doesn't act up again...
just like I did yesterday, and right now while she is fine.

as for force drinking...I'll leave her be for now.
but if she acts drunk, falls, or whatever, I'll restart doing it again.

a vet is clearly in order soon. on my end or the breeders.

Harry

 

[kinyonga]

Just a thought or two...were you using a dripper at all just before this happened?

What's the basking/highest temperature in the cage?

Can she see the male?

 

[warpdrive]

Just a thought or two...were you using a dripper at all just before this happened?

What's the basking/highest temperature in the cage?

Can she see the male?

the dripper, no...at least not the first day.

the basking temp was 84F, room temp was 75F

she was originaly in my bedroom when this all started, my male is in my living room.

Harry

 

[warpdrive]

I want to make it clear that she was originaly in my bedroom.
I never go in there...NOT EVEN TO SLEEP!
I only watched her while misting and feeding. that's it.
she was left alone otherwise.

but I can't leave a chameleon that starts out on the bottom of the cage after a fall to climb up alittle and smash her nose repeatedly over and over and over and over and over again on the floor.
I have to protect her. I had to stop her. her nose awas already brused when I got her...

yes, the buse is probably from shipping. that would be normal and go away in a shed or two.
but she is now falling on her nose when she acts up...in the same spot over and over.

how do I leave her alone when she is doing this Nic? how?
she gets worse each time she does it. worse I say.

Harry

 

[LBonawitz]

has she always acted like this, even for the breeder? i know in dogs and cats (humans as well) they can have cerebellar hypoplasia if the brain does not forum right during growth. i had a CH kitty. he always walked like he was drunk and ran into things.

i don't know if chams can get it. her actions sound very similar to the cat i had.

best luck. i would protect her from hurting herself too

 

[Nicodemayo]

Harry,

Honestly I don't think you should be keeping her in her normal cage with this kind of issue. If she were mine i'd keep her in a tub with a towel at the bottom, and a low lying stick structure of some sort with leaves she can drink off when you mist. A potted pothos plant works well for this. Set up the dripper and the lights over this bin. It'll serve as a "hospital" enclosure until you see improvement. I had a local customer bring back a 6 month old male panther with severe mbd after they left the plastic cover over the uvb after i instructed them multiple times not to. I nursed the cham in a tub similar to what i described to prevent further injuries from falling and "Atticus" made a complete recovery. This issue sounds like it may be neurological or something if she is moving in a "drunken" fashion. I have never had this issue, so this is the best advice I can give you. Do your best to keep her hydrated though, or you run the risk of her kidneys failing on her. I would advise you give the tub a try, and continue regular husbandry routines.

-Nic

 

[Syn]

I think it would be a good idea to move her into a soft tub or something without screen for the time being (if you haven't already, didn't read everything).

edit:Nico beat me to it.

 

[justjumpit621]

This kind of sounds like shes seizing She may have a seizure disorder.

 

[bugboy]

i agree with nic on the possibility of a neurological disfunction. although ive never seen it in a chameleon i have seen it in local wild birds and the symptoms sound the same. i may be wrong though for im no expert. i dont know nic personally but what hes saying sounds logical imo.

 

[warpdrive]

Harry,

Honestly I don't think you should be keeping her in her normal cage with this kind of issue. If she were mine i'd keep her in a tub with a towel at the bottom, and a low lying stick structure of some sort with leaves she can drink off when you mist. A potted pothos plant works well for this. Set up the dripper and the lights over this bin. It'll serve as a "hospital" enclosure until you see improvement. I had a local customer bring back a 6 month old male panther with severe mbd after they left the plastic cover over the uvb after i instructed them multiple times not to. I nursed the cham in a tub similar to what i described to prevent further injuries from falling and "Atticus" made a complete recovery. This issue sounds like it may be neurological or something if she is moving in a "drunken" fashion. I have never had this issue, so this is the best advice I can give you. Do your best to keep her hydrated though, or you run the risk of her kidneys failing on her. I would advise you give the tub a try, and continue regular husbandry routines.

-Nic

on her first night she was walking and climbing fine untill I found her on the foor. again, all was well untill then.
neurological disorder or seizure disorder sounds about right since she's fine about 2 to 3 hours after it starts.

I took her out and turned her cage on it's side so she couldn't fall too far if she fell again. 12" vs 24"
I'm sorry I didn't incude this info, infact, alot of info as I would need 15 pages as to what was going on and what I did.

what's crazy is her grip is so stong. far stronger then my male at her size. but she has no balance when she freaks out.
it was so bad on the first night that she was banging her sides of her body on the bottom of the cage while walking...her face and EYES too.
today's event was not as bad but still not good.
when climbing in this state, she would climb up and do a back flip and land on her nose....it's like she is trying to reach for the screen, but instead of moving CLOSER to the screen, she is moving AWAY from it. the harder she trys the farther away she gets till she falls on her nose.

it's crazy to say it, but after the event is over, she is back to normal.
she can climb the cage, walk on vines, bask, cool off, she just didn't eat today as I'm sure I stressed the heck out of her. but I got her to swallow at least 3 times, ultra small amounts of water.

her grip was so stong and her balance came back so good that she crawled up my leg from the floor before I put her back in the cage.
sadly I set the cage upright again and she was fine the rest of the night.

she will be in a tub by the morning with towels and her pothos...no screen or plastic cover will be used.
I will keep it fully open at the top.

I want to thank you so much for your reply...everyone else too.


this female is 5 months old and from a respectable breeder....incase I forgot to say before.
I'm sure she will call me back after she reads this and help me out.

Harry

 

[Syn]

When you keep it fully open please make sure she can't stretch fully to escape! I made that mistake once.

I just find it strange someone would sell the chameleon to you if it was doing this previously unless they are a large scale breeder and didn't notice.. but the bruising is proof enough that it has been happening for a while, to be honest (and observant). I hope things are cleared up.

Hoping for the best.

Edit: I think it's time to see a picture of the cage setup, is she in view of your male? Are you leaving her alone?

 

[philanddeb818]

Although I do not understand the imbalance, I do believe she is in need of much more water.

You can make her gape by gently placing your finger and thumb on either side of the hinge of her mouth while enclosing her body with the same hand. Once you have her in position, she can easily handle half of a medicine dropper of water or more per swallow. With her mouth open, you just squirt the water in. Don't be afraid of it entering her lungs, just squirt it. You can drop more water into her gut than you think. She'll close her mouth and swallow.

She needs hydration according to her fecal matter. You're doing an excellent job caring for her. Keep up the good work and keep us all posted of her recovery.

 

[warpdrive]

When you keep it fully open please make sure she can't stretch fully to escape! I made that mistake once.

I just find it strange someone would sell the chameleon to you if it was doing this previously unless they are a large scale breeder and didn't notice.. but the bruising is proof enough that it has been happening for a while, to be honest (and observant). I hope things are cleared up.

Hoping for the best.

Edit: I think it's time to see a picture of the cage setup, is she in view of your male? Are you leaving her alone?

the tub is going to be deep enough that she can't get out.
better yet, I'm gona just flip the cage once again, as it will be only 12" high then, about an inch above the pothos. then add towels incase she falls.

the back of her cage is facing Splat, and has a towel on the back to prevent her from seeing him and to help with humidity.

forget the bruise, there is no way a chams urate gets this bad overnight.
I smushed the poop as it was 20 secs old and on a screen, but the urate tells the story of something wrong for a long time.

Harry

 

[warpdrive]

Although I do not understand the imbalance, I do believe she is in need of much more water.

You can make her gape by gently placing your finger and thumb on either side of the hinge of her mouth while enclosing her body with the same hand. Once you have her in position, she can easily handle half of a medicine dropper of water or more per swallow. With her mouth open, you just squirt the water in. Don't be afraid of it entering her lungs, just squirt it. You can drop more water into her gut than you think. She'll close her mouth and swallow.

She needs hydration according to her fecal matter. You're doing an excellent job caring for her. Keep up the good work and keep us all posted of her recovery.

are you saying I can push my fingers together to get her mouth open?
I wanted to gently do this but feared at her size I would do more harm then good.
what I was doing was pulling her lip down to expose her teeth, and get a drop on her gums...after a few times (maybe 10) she would swallow.

she is tiny.
3" STV.
5 months old.

should I gently try?

Harry

 

[Fearaffect]

I use a thin plastic spatula to open a babies mouth.....this is what Sandy(Gesang) and recommended for me to use and works great.

 

[kinyonga]

IMHO you definitely need to worry about getting water in her lungs! The water should NOT be squirted into her mouth. It should be eased in giving her time to swallow it.

I also would not squeeze her mouth to open it. You might damage her when she's so small.

Usually if you drip small drips of water on the tip of the nose for a minute or two the chameleon will start drinking on its own. Drip it at about the rate of two drips per second.

Here's some information on how much water is enough....
"Water needs are based on metabolic rate (see my first column, March 2002). Once you have a weight on your chameleon, you can look up its metabolic rate from my charts. The charts give "calories per day". A useful approximation is that 1 (one) ml (cc) of water is needed for every calorie. If your chameleon needs, for example, 8 calories daily, it will be drinking about 8 ml daily. Another way to estimate water intake is to use an empirical equation of 10 to 30 ml/kg body weight."...
http://chameleonnews.com/?page=article&id=100