Investigation In Progress

[krikinit]

2 chams lower risk lots of babies crawiling around for 3 month higher risk of spreading. Also if she keeps crickets or offer crickets at anytime contamination could have occurred there. There are too many possible routes to possibly begin to blame 1 way or the other. As per my earlier post no one keeps their home or enclosure sterile. No one. If you not keeping you vham in a lab you cannot definitely say who's at fault.

 

[Daesie11]

2 chams lower risk lots of babies crawiling around for 3 month higher risk of spreading. Also if she keeps crickets or offer crickets at anytime contamination could have occurred there. There are too many possible routes to possibly begin to blame 1 way or the other. As per my earlier post no one keeps their home or enclosure sterile. No one. If you not keeping you vham in a lab you cannot definitely say who's at fault.

She does not feed crickets. Which has already been established in her other threads.

 

[GoodKarma19]

2 chams lower risk lots of babies crawiling around for 3 month higher risk of spreading. Also if she keeps crickets or offer crickets at anytime contamination could have occurred there. There are too many possible routes to possibly begin to blame 1 way or the other. As per my earlier post no one keeps their home or enclosure sterile. No one. If you not keeping you vham in a lab you cannot definitely say who's at fault.

Vet results say that Bahari couldn't have possibly reached that level of infection in the x days that Becca had him before managing to collect a fecal sample.

But we're pointing fingers again.

 

[jannb]

When I have babies they have fecals a time or two before they reach the age to be shipped. When they are real young and multiply babies are in the same bin, only one or two fecals are done per baby bin but individual fecals are done the day before a baby is shipped out. If a parasite is present we start treatment that day and we would not ship if the parasite was Cociddia. Might ship with pins if the baby is going to a very experienced keeper that will continues treatments and follow up with more fecals. My vets say to treat any amount of parasite that they have. My vets also do not believe in giving treatment without a fecal and knowing for sure what parasite your pet has. My vet said why would you want to chance putting poison into the body of a tiny chameleon if he does not need it.

 

[cyberlocc]

2 chams lower risk lots of babies crawiling around for 3 month higher risk of spreading. Also if she keeps crickets or offer crickets at anytime contamination could have occurred there. There are too many possible routes to possibly begin to blame 1 way or the other. As per my earlier post no one keeps their home or enclosure sterile. No one. If you not keeping you vham in a lab you cannot definitely say who's at fault.

Okay so as has been said.

1. she doesn't keep crickets.

2. She did not have the Cham long enough for the Parasite Load, to become as severe as it was, which you keep seem to be ignoring or missing.

3. She has another Chameleon who isn't infected.

If it was from her feeders, he would have it as well.

When I have babies they have fecals a time or two before they reach the age to be shipped. When they are real young and multiply babies are in the same bin, only one or two fecals are done per baby bin but individual fecals are done the day before a baby is shipped out. If a parasite is present we start treatment that day and we would not ship if the parasite was Cociddia. Might ship with pins if the baby is going to a very experienced keeper that will continues treatments and follow up with more fecals. My vets say to treat any amount of parasite that they have. My vets also do not believe in giving treatment without a fecal and knowing for sure what parasite your pet has. My vet said why would you want to chance putting poison into the body of a tiny chameleon if he does not need it.

See this is how you do things . And this along with a plethora of other reasons is why I have always looked up to and read everything Jann says.

So I guess you were not the one that does Fecals on house and says "if you want to breed learn to be a vet" it must have been Jean.

 

[JacksJill]

When I have babies they have fecals a time or two before they reach the age to be shipped. When they are real young and multiply babies are in the same bin, only one or two fecals are done per baby bin but individual fecals are done the day before a baby is shipped out. If a parasite is present we start treatment that day and we would not ship if the parasite was Cociddia. Might ship with pins if the baby is going to a very experienced keeper that will continues treatments and follow up with more fecals. My vets say to treat any amount of parasite that they have. My vets also do not believe in giving treatment without a fecal and knowing for sure what parasite your pet has. My vet said why would you want to chance putting poison into the body of a tiny chameleon if he does not need it.

This is what I'm talking about "having a good relationship with your vet".

 

[Thatwizard420]

“Show me the FEfax”

 

[cyberlocc]

This is what I'm talking about "having a good relationship with your vet".

Well it's not that bad, a fecal, just a fecal if your Vet will do that, is like 25-30 bucks. That's why I said, why are we adding 150 for a fecal? A full on Vet Visit is more sure, but just a fecal isnt that bad.

And like you said, if you buy the tools and read the books, Fecals are 5 each after buying a Microscope.

As bad as it sounds, the consumer shouldn't have to pay extra for if the Cham needs treatment. That's a You problem, not the Buyers problem. However, with proper care, QT setups, and Hygiene, babies should never have Coccidia, and if they do, it's either a freak accident, and you pay to treat and QT the babies that have the issue. Or your entire collection is effected, and you need to treat all.

Unforseen expenses and freak accidents are write offs. The world won't end, it will suck and be expensive to fix, but that's what needs done.


That's what sets a good breeder apart from.a backyard breeder. What am I paying 350+ for otherwise? Because it's got a pretty sire? That means little for the baby, it's the best way we have to judge, but doesn't mean all that much.

The Premium lines, come from Breeders I can trust. I know they have been well cared for and will be quality animals right? Well not if they have parasites. I should have just bought from the Backyard breeder if that's the case.

 

[JacksJill]

The 350$ is for the 12-24 feeders a day for 3-6 months and food for the feeders. The cages to keep them. The price of the sire and dam. The lights, the power and the water filtration. When you get into it the prices add up. Fecals can cost 60$ at some vets and an exam can be 75$. Most breeders spend 10,000$ before they begin to see their first profits. Then there are the losses to cover the females with difficult births that need vet care or get care and die anyway. The males that get too old to breed but still need feeding and care. A prescription for meds can be 60-160$.

 

[JoshD49]

First I would like to say that I have nothing but love and respect for @Matt Vanilla Gorilla and his family. I would not be as far as I am in this hobby without his countless hours of calls, texts and friendship. I have purchased the best chameleon I could have asked for in Merlin from Matt who was literally Bahari's twin. I have also purchased eggs, gutload and plenty of other things from him as well. Not one of these items or critters was in my care without the support and knowledge to make sure I succeed. In Matt I have made much more then a breeder contact. I have made a true friend that I have actually gone to just to shoot the breeze or even discuss some very personal family stuff on both sides.

Because of this true friendship, like @krikinit I share a loyalty to the person I owe my success and more. That said I find it hard to believe that Matt would sell a chameleon knowing it was sick which I know is not the accusation but should be considered. In the same breath I do not know all the details of the situation (from both sides) much the same as the others who are commenting. Without knowing all the details fully will only lead to the flames being fanned and not cooled. Could this have been handled differently? Sure but on all sides not just the 2 parties involved.

I have a lot of love and respect for Becca as well and she knows that so before all of you jump down my throat remember that we all know each other in some way even if it is only though this forum and have had plenty of interaction with each other. I appreciate all the veterans here who have got us this far. The veterans are who I look to now in these situations and ask that instead of pushing the fight should be taking the high road and disclosing things in private to not display this to new or potential members. @JacksJill is a prime example of someone who is trying to mend and heal not open the wound and put it on display. I love the passion when a community comes together for a cause but not at the expense of one of their own.

@jamest0o0 and @Syreptyon Please take the time to help with this as I looked to both of you as mentors from the day I got my first cham to now. I am sure @Decadancin would love the support.

I have no problem with everyone beating me up on this as I feel the entire forum is ready to move on including Becca.

Thanks
Josh

 

[cyberlocc]

The 350$ is for the 12-24 feeders a day for 3-6 months and food for the feeders. The cages to keep them. The price of the sire and dam. The lights, the power and the water filtration. When you get into it the prices add up. Fecals can cost 60$ at some vets and an exam can be 75$. Most breeders spend 10,000$ before they begin to see their first profits. Then there are the losses to cover the females with difficult births that need vet care or get care and die anyway. The males that get too old to breed but still need feeding and care. A prescription for meds can be 60-160$.

Ya but backyard breeders have to do those things as well. And most of the money is setup cost.

Btw, 1 clutch at 350 is 10,500 if you have average 30 babies.

The actual annual bills are not that high, especially if you breed your own feeders. Olimpia raised 10 Panthers on 40 dollars, caging aside, and actually cost her 250 in total cages and all, not including the parents and their setups. No one here is buying Chams to breed as a business solely. They have Chams, and want to breed to help for the hobby and get deeper into it.

When you have people breeding Veilieds and breaking even, you can not for a second believe Panthers don't make good profit. That's a line of hooey. It's good they make good profit, with good profit comes the care to breed right, and that's improtant. However they are making a decent profit, especially as for most it's a side job.

 

[Highway61]

....When you have people breeding Veilieds and breaking even, you can not for a second believe Panthers don't make good profit. That's a line of hooey. It's good they make good profit, with good profit comes the care to breed right, and that's improtant. However they are making a decent profit, especially as for most it's a side job.

This is a total contradiction of what I've read on this forum. But I have never bred chams so I won't play archair cham breeder.

 

[Lennoncham]

Let me just say this for the record. Nobody has said that Matt knowingly sent her an infected Cham. Even Becca has said she doesn’t believe they knew it was infected. The issue is the way it was handled after the fact. Can we all stop talking about this transaction and just focus on the subject of what would be the best course of action to prevent such things.

Continuing to talk about it and take sides is exactly what Becca DIDNT want to happen. That’s why she started her thread saying she didn’t want it to turn into an argument she just wanted advice and support.

 

[jamest0o0]

This is a total contradiction of what I've read on this forum. But I have never bred chams so I won't play archair cham breeder.

Dude, cyber has been doing this for longer than most people currently posting on these forums.

 

[jamest0o0]

Somebody sold a sick chameleon, they didn't make it right when it should have been. There's no way around that. Friends/followers can do mental gymnastics all they want, but that's all there is to say. I mean what kind of breeder tells a person NOT to get a fecal? Or that it's normal for a cham to fall from misters?

I've seen too many manipulators, I know BS when I see/hear it. I'll call it out and not sugarcoat it. I'm not here to mend anything unless he makes it right, but I'm done escalating it as well. I get that our instincts want us to trust a friendly person, but that doesn't mean every car salesman is our best friend. Of course they need friends right now and are going to suck up close to anyone who will listen, while repeating 'family family family' until everyone feels bad enough to cave in and listen to their side. Matt and teal are smart, they're playing you all. Someone in that family has experience with psychology.

 

[nightanole]

This is a total contradiction of what I've read on this forum. But I have never bred chams so I won't play archair cham breeder.

Uh a cham is a cham, if veilds and panthers are similar in clutch size and gestation, and you can sell one for $50-75 and make enough to buy a pizza, its not going to cost $200-300 more to raise the other.

Parsons cost so much because its like watching grass grow...

 

[cyberlocc]

Dude, cyber has been doing this for longer than most people currently posting on these forums.

Well to be fair, I have never bred Chams. Yet.

I have bred other reptiles, and I do get around and talk to alot of people, and have made alot of planning, and spreadsheeted it a few times. Me and the wife have thought about it a few times. We might actually start, however we never did it before because it needs server dedication. There is no going back, once there is eggs, that's it, you now have eggs to care for. That was never a guarantee, that we felt comfortable taking on, with something as demanding as a Cham, with already having kiddos and everything.

Jack's is right, there is a hefty upfront cost. However after you make that back, there is definitely profit to be made. How you value the profit to hours spent, and what hours classify as work and which as hobby, is all up in the air, and going to be derivative on a per person basis. However to say there is no profit, I can't say I agree with.

Plus like Night said, and I think I touched on and Bill did in the podcast. You can breed Veilied and stay afloat. You might make enough for a pizza, but not much more. That's more of a passion project. Now increase animals price by 275, per. That's all profit. Once again, this isn't taking hours spent into account. It's very situational.

For us, it was always a thought, as we have a business that is semi home based already, I am already home all day, doing pretty much nothing (my slow business lol) so putting that time to better use, would be huge profit for me. As I can't go do a job that pays more. In that situation, my time isn't as valuable, as I am making money sitting here anyway .

You will never be Trump. But you can defiantly make a decent living breeding Panthers. Especially if you live in Florida.

 

[nightanole]

Well to be fair, I have never bred Chams. Yet.

I have bred other reptiles, and I do get around and talk to alot of people, and have made alot of planning, and spreadsheeted it a few times. Me and the wife have thought about it a few times. We might actually start, however we never did it before because it needs server dedication. There is no going back, once there is eggs, that's it, you now have eggs to care for. That was never a guarantee, that we felt comfortable taking on, with something as demanding as a Cham, with already having kiddos and everything.

Jack's is right, there is a hefty upfront cost. However after you make that back, there is definitely profit to be made. How you value the profit to hours spent, and what hours classify as work and which as hobby, is all up in the air, and going to be derivative on a per person basis. However to say there is no profit, I can't say I agree with.

Careful going down that road. I remember listening to a breeder pod cast. By the end, they had raised the babies, got homes, had them at boxes at the post office, sent them to their forever homes, husband was like "oh lord thank goodness they are gone, that was alot of work". The wife just sat their crying like she sent her 20-30 kids off to college, each one had its own unique personality/quirks

Kinda like the old repile saying "it doesnt get bad till you start giving the food names", ah the joys of marking that special roach so you dont feed her off on accident.

 

[cyberlocc]

Careful going down that road. I remember listening to a breeder pod cast. By the end, they had raised the babies, got homes, had them at boxes at the post office, sent them to their forever homes, husband was like "oh lord thank goodness they are gone, that was alot of work". The wife just sat their crying like she sent her 20-30 kids off to college, each one had its own unique personality/quirks

Kinda like the old repile saying "it doesnt get bad till you start giving the food names", ah the joys of marking that special roach so you dont feed her off on accident.

True, I am not too worried about the Wife, she is a very calculated person. Honestly it would likely be her shipping them out and me being the one that cries for an hour lol. My kiddos on the other hand, might struggle with it more.

I have always been intrigued, and now that our second and last LO, is turning 2, it has been on my mind now, and has been a household discussion. I loved breeding snakes, while in college and before. However, once I entered my Field, which is IT, I worked a lot, too much, on top of being in school, so I had to stop. Now they we have this business, its more Lax, and I have more time, an absurd amount of time hahaha.

 

[JoshD49]

True, I am not too worried about the Wife, she is a very calculated person. Honestly it would likely be her shipping them out and me being the one that cries for an hour lol. My kiddos on the other hand, might struggle with it more.

I have always been intrigued, and now that our second and last LO, is turning 2, it has been on my mind now, and has been a household discussion. I loved breeding snakes, while in college and before. However, once I entered my Field, which is IT, I worked a lot, too much, on top of being in school, so I had to stop. Now they we have this business, its more Lax, and I have more time, an absurd amount of time hahaha.

Sounds like your in the same boat as me. My second (last) is 2 and my daughter (7) and I are working on getting a breeding thing going. My wife would be the one boxing and my daughter and I would be crying. Haha.

As for naming bugs I don't think I'll ever get there. I held onto a male dubia for a long while in case I wanted to start a colony but eventually let my beardie have at him. Haha.