I know we're not supposed to mix chams and frogs but...

[Twitchet]

Have they tried to ride the tree dragon yet?

LOL, yes, they occasionally do, I don’t think there’s a lot of stress though, the panther ate a locust whilst the frog was on his back.
As for a panther eating a frog, all I know is the tinctorius are a large and heavy frog as a meal to a panther, there’s no way my panther could eat one.

 

[snitz427]

I very highly doubt that chameleons exist in the wild in their own tree, free from other animals. They must have frogs, lizards (yum!), birds, primates, etc in their space regularly throughout the day. Sure, some become lunch.

I do agree it probably adds a level of stress and irritation, and I wouldn’t consider it with a 24x24 or 3 out of 4 of my chams. The nosy be is in a 45x22?x48 bioactive enclosure with moderately dense foilage im the bottom. He never goes to the bottom or hunts the giant canyon isopods which are close to the same size of the mantellas.

I think once the plants are grown in, I’ll be able to introduce them without issue. I think the panther may be more annoyed with me than the frogs... which is a good point. We stress the animals, too!

 

[jamest0o0]

I think some other concerns for mixing species are toxins(with some amphibians), pathogens, territorial stress, etc. Not that these can't be worked around, just that it definitely something to take into consideration and with a very large enclosure.

 

[leedragon]

When I say serious water feature, i mean one with filtration that rivals that of a reef aquarium and regular maintenance. I have yet to see any cham keepers with this. I also would expect it's main function to be humidity, not so much a drinking source. Why would this be a problem for temporal glands if foggers are alright(which most likely grow bacteria pretty fast)? And if he wants to go *very big*, Parsons are a montane species that do not have temporal glands. I've heard they are found near streams pretty often as well.

Filters don´t kill bacteria, they offer a Place for bacteria to grow. The difference is in a stream it is not the same water flowing over and over again and it´s nature they are not gonna be confined in one area. Foggers and rains systems work becuase they use new water and it´s not a stale water that has Contact with feces and what not. Depends on your definition of montane, monatain are many times used for trioceros. I belive parsones get some weird sig where the temporal gland is on other species, like a wound crust. I haven´t seen it go as serious as temporal gland infection in trioceroes due.

 

[leedragon]

I very highly doubt that chameleons exist in the wild in their own tree, free from other animals. They must have frogs, lizards (yum!), birds, primates, etc in their space regularly throughout the day. Sure, some become lunch.

I do agree it probably adds a level of stress and irritation, and I wouldn’t consider it with a 24x24 or 3 out of 4 of my chams. The nosy be is in a 45x22?x48 bioactive enclosure with moderately dense foilage im the bottom. He never goes to the bottom or hunts the giant canyon isopods which are close to the same size of the mantellas.

I think once the plants are grown in, I’ll be able to introduce them without issue. I think the panther may be more annoyed with me than the frogs... which is a good point. We stress the animals, too!

Chameleons in captivity don´t have the possibilities and risk they have in nature. Sure they come across other animals, and many times they get killed by them aswell. Because there is something in nature doesn´t meant it will be beneficial to the animal if we take just that and put it in the perimeters we have for the chameleon.

 

[jamest0o0]

Filters don´t kill bacteria, they offer a Place for bacteria to grow. The difference is in a stream it is not the same water flowing over and over again and it´s nature they are not gonna be confined in one area. Foggers and rains systems work becuase they use new water and it´s not a stale water that has Contact with feces and what not. Depends on your definition of montane, monatain are many times used for trioceros. I belive parsones get some weird sig where the temporal gland is on other species, like a wound crust. I haven´t seen it go as serious as temporal gland infection in trioceroes due.

By montane I just mean highland/mountainous.

By filtration I don't just mean a mechanical filter. Biological filtration plays a huge role. You can also implement powerful UV sterilizers(a few of us went into depth on this on a different thread). It would be a lot of work and money, but IMO it's not impossible or bad if someone wants to take it that far. The water wouldn't be stale and i'd bet that natural freshwater sources carry more crap than a closed system. Bacteria is a natural part of water, most of it is probably harmless, but I'd agree with a water feature it's always a little bit of a risk since there isn't much knowledge about setting them up like this for reptiles. Foggers build up bacteria fast and could cause infection easier than this kind of system IMO.

 

[leedragon]

By montane I just mean highland/mountainous.

By filtration I don't just mean a mechanical filter. Biological filtration plays a huge role. You can also implement powerful UV sterilizers(a few of us went into depth on this on a different thread). It would be a lot of work and money, but IMO it's not impossible or bad if someone wants to take it that far. The water wouldn't be stale and i'd bet that natural freshwater sources carry more crap than a closed system. Bacteria is a natural part of water, most of it is probably harmless, but I'd agree with a water feature it's always a little bit of a risk since there isn't much knowledge about setting them up like this for reptiles. Foggers build up bacteria fast and could cause infection easier than this kind of system IMO.

YEah I seen one of those threads. You coud do all of that OR don´t do any of that and make a paladarium for a species which is amphibious. win win less Money spend.

 

[jamest0o0]

YEah I seen one of those threads. You coud do all of that OR don´t do any of that and make a paladarium for a species which is amphibious. win win less Money spend.

I agree, but that'd be to easy! haha

 

[Brodybreaux25]

I’m re

By montane I just mean highland/mountainous.

By filtration I don't just mean a mechanical filter. Biological filtration plays a huge role. You can also implement powerful UV sterilizers(a few of us went into depth on this on a different thread). It would be a lot of work and money, but IMO it's not impossible or bad if someone wants to take it that far. The water wouldn't be stale and i'd bet that natural freshwater sources carry more crap than a closed system. Bacteria is a natural part of water, most of it is probably harmless, but I'd agree with a water feature it's always a little bit of a risk since there isn't much knowledge about setting them up like this for reptiles. Foggers build up bacteria fast and could cause infection easier than this kind of system IMO.

I’m really surprised to hear you arguing for this, what am I missing? How would this be any different than all the other water features with documented high-kill rates?

Not attacking, genuinely curious.

 

[jamest0o0]

I’m re
I’m really surprised to hear you arguing for this, what am I missing? How would this be any different than all the other water features with documented high-kill rates?

Not attacking, genuinely curious.

I've talked about water features like this for a long time. A few members and I are even in a PM group about it lol. What I'm talking about I have literally never seen someone do, so not sure what documented kill rates there are. Unless you mean with half assed, dirty ones, which I don't consider an option at all.

 

[jamest0o0]

I'm just giving OP the benefit of the doubt, that if he's going to consider a water feature, it's going to be the best. UV sterilizer alone would be a ton of $$$$. Add in the cost of a sump, filters, etc. It's not realistic for 99% of people. But I won't shut down something like it completely.

 

[Brodybreaux25]

That’s the difference, your talking about a SYSTEM, not a feature!

 

[jamest0o0]

Yeah exactly lol, I should have emphasized that better

 

[Brodybreaux25]

Yeah exactly lol, I should have emphasized that better

Sounds like it’s time to put your money where your mouth is! Might have to sell your chameleon onesie to finance this one!

 

[jamest0o0]

I'll put up an ad on cham forums

For sale: chameleon onesie signed by jamest0o0, fits grown man

 

[snitz427]

Chameleons in captivity don´t have the possibilities and risk they have in nature. Sure they come across other animals, and many times they get killed by them aswell. Because there is something in nature doesn´t meant it will be beneficial to the animal if we take just that and put it in the perimeters we have for the chameleon.

You’re right, it may not be beneficial, and it may not be detremental. I think it would require the right conditions and the right animals, and even then I wouldn’t do it 9 out of 10 times. But simply saying it introduces a stressor or potential unknown is no different than taking your chameleon outside and introducing them to similiar (uncontrolled) variables.

I think you guys are right, for sure, but everyone is quick to point to stress, where I think we as humans introduce FAR more stress then a non toxic thumbnail frog might.

 

[CamoChameleonsHuman]

I'll put up an ad on cham forums

For sale: chameleon onesie signed by jamest0o0, fits grown man

Sold!

 

[CamoChameleonsHuman]

You’re right, it may not be beneficial, and it may not be detremental. I think it would require the right conditions and the right animals, and even then I wouldn’t do it 9 out of 10 times. But simply saying it introduces a stressor or potential unknown is no different than taking your chameleon outside and introducing them to similiar (uncontrolled) variables.

I think you guys are right, for sure, but everyone is quick to point to stress, where I think we as humans introduce FAR more stress then a non toxic thumbnail frog might.

I think we were more worried about the frogs here not the cham.

 

[jamest0o0]

I think we were more worried about the frogs here not the cham.

I'm worried about the plants, we never discuss their feelings about it all

 

[Brodybreaux25]

Yeah exactly lol, I should have emphasized that better

No you did, I should have read the whole thread, my bad.