Gravid Cham/ 1st time owners

[Markpr73]

Our girl is about 6 months old and is bearing eggs (verified by X-Ray). Lost her appetite almost a month ago, and we are having to force feed her using Oxbow Carnivore Care/strained peas/calcium mixture. She used to eat 12-15 crickets per day plus one or two Superworms. We have her in a 48x24x24 mesh enclosure with a laying bin made of a 3-gallon bucket with sand/EcoEarth. We have both UVB and UVA bulbs going, plus an incandescent bulb by the laying bin. The cage is covered on all sides for privacy. She is not showing bumps/bulges on her flanks yet and has ignored the laying bin so far. Are we just too early or is she eggbound?

 

[The Wild One]

Please post pictures of literally everything

 

[Markpr73]

Please post pictures of literally everything

Will try and get some shots after awhile. Trying to give her her peace and quiet right now.

 

[Markpr73]

We had a bit of a turnaround in the last 24 hours. She’s all of a sudden regained her appetite for live food. I think one thing that made a difference was bringing her dusted crickets right up to her eye level in the dusting container rather than letting the crickets crawl up the sides of the cage. Whatever it was, it’s working. Still waiting for her to start digging but it hasn’t happened yet. She’s not really “showing” at this point, IMHO.

 

[kinyonga]

Are the eggs showing round or oval in the X-ray?
Can you post another photo showing all of her in it please?

 

[Markpr73]

Are the eggs showing round or oval in the X-ray?
Can you post another photo showing all of her in it please?

Not sure if they are round or oval judging from the x-ray. Maybe you can tell better than I.

 

[kinyonga]

I can't enlarge the photo big enough to be sure but they look more oval than round to me. She has a huge clutch. Sorry to tell you but that means you've been over feeding her. I hope she can lay them.

Try not to disturb her.......don't handle her...don't let her see you watching her when she's digging. Cover the sides (lower half is fine) of the cage so she has privacy. You can water her when she's up in her branches.

If she shows signs of lethargy or sits low in the cage or sleeps during the day let us know right away. It will mean she's in trouble.

Here's how it should go...she may dig test holes but should settle on one and dig it until she's happy with it. She should then turn around butt down in the hole....likely in the evening and lay all the eggs at one sitting. She should then fill the hole in and tamp it down and return to the branches hungry, thirsty and thin. If this doesn't happen let us know.

 

[Markpr73]

I’m not sure about the over-feeding thing. Prior to becoming gravid she was eating 10-15 crickets and 1-2 Superworms per day. Then, on the same day we moved her into her current enclosure, her appetite caved. Vet had us force-feeding her with Oxbow supplement and strained vegies/calcium, which she has tolerated very well but was a much smaller cumulative amount of daily intake compared to the crickets/worms. She hasn’t been sleeping during the daytime and has been a bit more mobile over the last day or so. She’ll sit up on a high vine for awhile and then come down to bask next to the incandescent bulb. We don’t know what we will be able to do if she becomes eggbound as the surgery probably is more than we could afford. I don’t think my wife was aware of the potential costs when she decided that she wanted a cham. This is our first. Never even had one as a kid. We very much appreciate the help and advice.

 

[kinyonga]

Don't worry about the over feeding comment I made...I'll explain it later.

Why do you have a basking light by the laybin?? It may be keeping her from digging. If she has a basking light at the top of the cage and the UVB light at the top of the cage that should be al she needs.

If you don't feel you can look after her if she becomes eggbound maybe you should look for a rescue place in your area and let them have her.

It's normal for them to have a decreased appetite near the time they need to lay...I just hope that she's not already past the time to lay. Having to handle her every day to force feed her is not going to help her situation...She needs peace to get through the laying process.
You could try digging her a hole in the laybin and setting her there so she can see it. I would cover the lower half of the cage so she has some privacy.

 

[Markpr73]

Don't worry about the over feeding comment I made...I'll explain it later.

Why do you have a basking light by the laybin?? It may be keeping her from digging. If she has a basking light at the top of the cage and the UVB light at the top of the cage that should be al she needs.

If you don't feel you can look after her if she becomes eggbound maybe you should look for a rescue place in your area and let them have her.

It's normal for them to have a decreased appetite near the time they need to lay...I just hope that she's not already past the time to lay. Having to handle her every day to force feed her is not going to help her situation...She needs peace to get through the laying process.
You could try digging her a hole in the laybin and setting her there so she can see it. I would cover the lower half of the cage so she has some privacy.

Our vet recommended the heat lamp and said that a standard incandescent was ok. It’s at the bottom of the enclosure because both UVA and UVB bulbs are at the top now and we don’t currently have a third fixture specifically dedicated to the basking light. To be honest, we are a bit confused as to where the basking light is supposed to go as the vet wasn’t clear on that. Should we be running all three bulbs at once for the same duration? As for the force-feeding, we were only doing what our vet recommended. We couldn’t just let her starve. There is a TON of information on the web about chams and if you’re new to it you’re not sure who to believe or what methods work best. We’re doing the best we can.

 

[kinyonga]

The vet is right about the need for a basking bulb/area (in the low to not quite mid 80'sF)... but it's at the top of the cage like the UVB. The vet is right about an incandescent household bulb being fine for that too. I use the long linear reptisun 5.0 tube light for a UVB. You only need the two bulbs I've mentioned normally.

I know you were doing what the vet said...and I don't like to go against what a vet says most of the time...but I also know that the chameleon needs to be disturbed as little as possible when carrying eggs to get through the process.

I'm sure you're doing the best you can and I know that there is an awful lot of bad info out there. This forum is a good place to get proper info though. there are vets, people who study chameleons in the wild, breeders, people who have kept chameleons for years on this forum...and a lot of newbies too who are learning ...and who have a better chance of skipping some of the learning curve those of us who started out keeping them "in the days before the wheel was invented" because we try to share what we learned.

I hope you can get your chameleon through the laying...and then learn how to slow down her reproduction and/or decrease clutch size...which can be talked about after.

 

[Markpr73]

The vet is right about the need for a basking bulb/area (in the low to not quite mid 80'sF)... but it's at the top of the cage like the UVB. The vet is right about an incandescent household bulb being fine for that too. I use the long linear reptisun 5.0 tube light for a UVB. You only need the two bulbs I've mentioned normally.

I know you were doing what the vet said...and I don't like to go against what a vet says most of the time...but I also know that the chameleon needs to be disturbed as little as possible when carrying eggs to get through the process.

I'm sure you're doing the best you can and I know that there is an awful lot of bad info out there. This forum is a good place to get proper info though. there are vets, people who study chameleons in the wild, breeders, people who have kept chameleons for years on this forum...and a lot of newbies too who are learning ...and who have a better chance of skipping some of the learning curve those of us who started out keeping them "in the days before the wheel was invented" because we try to share what we learned.

I hope you can get your chameleon through the laying...and then learn how to slow down her reproduction and/or decrease clutch size...which can be talked about after.

So I'm on the same page, how would you recommend we feed her? Discontinue the Oxbow supplement and go back to crickets/Superworms exclusively? And how often per day at what number of feeders? Regarding lights, you're saying that we need only the UVB and incandescent basking lights? No UVA? Sorry for the questions but I'm trying to be as specific and thorough as possible. Thx!

 

[kinyonga]

I've kept chameleons and lots of other reptiles for over 30 years and for many of those years I have used a regular household incandescent light bulb for basking and a reptisun long linear tube light for UVB. This is not the only way but it has worked for me.
My veiled females, for instance, usually live to be 7+ years and the males even longer.

I am not a fan of force feeding unless it's absolutely necessary...it's stressful to the chameleon and I always worry about some of the food ending up in the lungs. Just my opinion. I would rather have it eat on its own which it should do if it's not sick. But I'm not a vet so I'm not telling you what to do...just giving my opinion.
If she's up in the branches and not in the laybin then she can be fed and watered. Since she's got eggs the amount I would feed her is more right now than I would feed her when she's not gravid...I would feed her about 8 to 12 crickets (or equal calories from other insects) every second day. You said she was back to eating insects again...so are you still giving her oxbow too?

Because you said she stopped eating for a month and then got her appetite back its concerning me that she might be eggbound...but I'm not a vet and can't be sure. Again it's just my opinion. This is why I was telling you to watch for signs of being eggbound...lethargy, sitting low in the cage, sleeping during the day, etc.

I hope this makes it clearer.

 

[Markpr73]

As I have discovered, most things designed to clear things up only lead to more questions and confusion. Yes, she has apparently regained her ability/desire to hunt and eat live feeders and we have discontinued the Oxbow supplement. Our call, not the vet’s. We will remove the UVA bulb from the overhead fixture and replace it with the incandescent bulb. We are trying to avoid having to turn her over to a rescue and it’s getting very frustrating dealing with the feeling that everything we try is wrong. Now I have my wife questioning every change that is suggested to us and I’m getting caught in the middle. This is beyond frustrating.

 

[kinyonga]

The questions I've been asking are things I needed the answers to so I could figure out what's going on and hopefully help you. I'm trying to make things as straight forward and clear as possible. I'm sorry that it's causing you confusion and frustration.

Hopefully you will figure it out and your chameleon will get through this.

Hopefully someone else on here can comment on this issue and give you advice without causing you further confusion and frustration.

Good luck.

 

[Markpr73]

The questions I've been asking are things I needed the answers to so I could figure out what's going on and hopefully help you. I'm trying to make things as straight forward and clear as possible. I'm sorry that it's causing you confusion and frustration.

Hopefully you will figure it out and your chameleon will get through this.

Hopefully someone else on here can comment on this issue and give you advice without causing you further confusion and frustration.

Good luck.

And I’m very grateful for all the info and help. I didn’t mean to sound surly. As I mentioned before, I doubt my wife had any clue just how complicated these creatures are, and I certainly had no past history with reptiles where I could offer opinions/counsel. She could’ve picked stamp collecting but noooo. One thing we’ve found precious little info on is just how long it SHOULD be taking for the average Cham to begin laying eggs once it’s been established that she is, in fact, gravid. I believe that our girl has been carrying for at least six weeks if not longer. If anyone knows the average cost of the surgery necessary to free up her eggs, and the success rates, we’d appreciate the info. Thx!

 

[hiddenflaws]

She could’ve picked stamp collecting but noooo.

I was way too tickled at this holy crap

 

[Markpr73]

Glad I could find SOMETHING to laugh about in this situation.

 

[kinyonga]

For veileds it's usually 30 to 40 days to lay eggs...but that's easier to determine when they've been mated of course...so if yours is at at least 6weeks she's late and that's a reason to be concerned that she's eggbound. They can lay 3 or 4 clutches a year when not mated.

Has she done any digging at all in the last few weeks?

I can't help you on the cost...I live in Canada and I don't know where you live.

 

[Markpr73]

We’ve not seen her digging at all. We will try and place her directly in the sand tomorrow and see what happens. Odd thing is she doesn’t seem to be growing in size as you’d think she should be. I’ve seen pics of other gravid chams that have all kinds of bumps/bulges that our girl doesn’t yet have. I do know that her uptick in appetite is still going on. Her fecal/urine production is increasing relative to her increased intake. Moved the basking bulb up to the top of the cage and she spent more time up on top basking under the bulb. For all intents and purposes she appears happy and relatively healthy, just not willing to part with those eggs just yet.