Furcifer pardalis body color and selective breeding

[iPardalis]

I've put out two posts on breeding Panther Chameleons (Furcifer pardalis). The first post is a technical argument for how they inherit their color followed by a practical discussion about what this means for a selective breeding project.

1. Furcifer pardalis Body Color Inheritance Theory
2. Selective Breeding of Furcifer pardalis

Definitely curious to see what people think - there is a discussion thread below each post, but I am happy to discuss here too!

 

[DeremensisBlue]

This is some pretty intense stuff...will need to read this over a couple of times!

 

[iPardalis]

I hope it doesn't have too many holes in it. Would love to see if there are parts that are more difficult to follow!

 

[yoteango]

I don't know if the tech is there for any reasonable cost yet, but it will be interesting when genetic testing can be used to almost accurately predict color. It would be a great example of gene expression research and a wonderful tool for breeders.

 

[iPardalis]

Rare Genetics Inc. is in the process of finalizing a locale genetics test which we helped crowdfund and design. As a part of that project, they have done dozens of full DNA sequences of Furcifer pardalis. The cost has come way down to the point where a hobbyist can do full genomic sequences with a few thousand dollar machine in a matter of hours. I believe that'll be the next phase after lineage/locale testing as they build up a database of DNA to work with.

 

[leedragon]

nah, we don´t nedd ball pthons in chameleons. Better to chose a species that was the features you want the natural way. there are all the clors size and shapes of chameleons

 

[Beman]

Fascinating articles... I did not realize that so much goes into your selective breeding for Ybbb. Seems as though a breeder would really need to keep quite a few hold backs when trying to hit on colors they are really wanting to incorporate into their line. A little over my head over all, but very interesting that it is not as cut and dry as "here is the sire and what you can expect to see in your baby."

 

[iPardalis]

nah, we don´t nedd ball pthons in chameleons. Better to chose a species that was the features you want the natural way. there are all the clors size and shapes of chameleons

I have a feeling these articles were a bit less accessible than I should have made them. There is and never will be anything similar about panther chameleon genetics and ball pythons. There are no known or discoverable dominant/co-dominant/recessive color traits. The first article addresses this. Happy to help explain it if you have a specific point to raise.

 

[iPardalis]

Fascinating articles... I did not realize that so much goes into your selective breeding for Ybbb. Seems as though a breeder would really need to keep quite a few hold backs when trying to hit on colors they are really wanting to incorporate into their line. A little over my head over all, but very interesting that it is not as cut and dry as "here is the sire and what you can expect to see in your baby."

Yep - it is very easy to drift way off track pretty quickly (Ralph is just two gens removed from Jude). The main challenge is in the females because you can waste a ton of time proving them out, so having a decent estimate for what they are carrying can save you a ton of time.

 

[salty dog]

All W.C. Are also not a 100% exact science labeling of locale & ybbb - rbbb - etc… etc.. quite often there is mistakes made by the collectors and the nursery shipping mislabels……besides chameleons are a natural animal…dna from either parent varies in the offspring….the only way to get an exact replica is inbreed…..

 

[iPardalis]

All W.C. Are also not a 100% exact science labeling of locale & ybbb - rbbb - etc… etc.. quite often there is mistakes made by the collectors and the nursery shipping mislabels……besides chameleons are a natural animal…dna from either parent varies in the offspring….the only way to get an exact replica is inbreed…..

That is false. I am incubating my 6th generation of ybbb, and I am reasonably confident in the fact that that is what they will be without doing any inbreeding. Why? Research and I have an understanding of their genetics/lineage. I encourage you to actually read the two blogs (above) - I address topics like how to introduce genetic diversity via WC and the fact that very few animals actually have a ybbb/rbbb phenotype.

On their DNA - the first blog is a good place to start. The way that their colors are determined is via a process called polygenic inheritance. It is the natural way that the spectrum of color is created and will continue to be created no matter what we do. We can limit the spectrum but we can never eliminate it.

Even inbreeding will not create exact replicas, and it might actually produce more variation in the case where the inbreeding includes a female with the opposite phenotype vs two unrelated animals from the same phenotype.

If you want to know more about our work on how to know for certain what locale a given animal is, I encourage you to read about our work on genetic testing for locale ancestry. Because you are correct that imports aren't a sure thing and people mix up their females/collection. This test we helped develop bypasses all those mistakes because it uses baseline data from wild specimens which were collected by researchers and geocoded without ever entering the pet trade.

 

[Beman]

Yep - it is very easy to drift way off track pretty quickly (Ralph is just two gens removed from Jude). The main challenge is in the females because you can waste a ton of time proving them out, so having a decent estimate for what they are carrying can save you a ton of time.

I suppose this is where it is helpful to work with other breeders you know who keep a very clear genetic line of both the sire and the dam. As far as if you were to incorporate one of their females into your breeding group, being able to have a better understanding of what she is carrying in her genetics prior to you having to prove her out. Its interesting to me because I have always seen the sires on display some even have several generations back but it is always only the sire and nothing of the dams sire.

 

[iPardalis]

I suppose this is where it is helpful to work with other breeders you know who keep a very clear genetic line of both the sire and the dam. As far as if you were to incorporate one of their females into your breeding group, being able to have a better understanding of what she is carrying in her genetics prior to you having to prove her out. Its interesting to me because I have always seen the sires on display some even have several generations back but it is always only the sire and nothing of the dams sire.

That is exactly what I get into in the second post about a "base estimate" for what is in an animal you add to your project - I tried to summarize it in an information gain table for what lineage is useful and what is not:

 

[iPardalis]

And for perspective on what being wrong with 75% of the information (Sire + Dam Sire) looks like - flip a coin twice. Two tails is a 25% outcome, and that is the probability that you are wrong when you only have Sire and Dam Sire information. (very rough approximation because we are talking about distributions instead of discrete outcomes like heads/tails)

 

[Beman]

And for perspective on what being wrong with 75% of the information (Sire + Dam Sire) looks like - flip a coin twice. Two tails is a 25% outcome, and that is the probability that you are wrong when you only have Sire and Dam Sire information. (very rough approximation because we are talking about distributions instead of discrete outcomes like heads/tails)

I really appreciate you sharing your expertise in the forum. With so many people breeding them there is a big difference in the way you breed fully understanding what your doing vs others who just do it. I greatly respect those that breed the way you do. My personal opinion is that I would rather go through a breeder that not only fully understands their husbandry and provides it but also understands how to do so to create the best of what they breed.

 

[iPardalis]

I really appreciate you sharing your expertise in the forum. With so many people breeding them there is a big difference in the way you breed fully understanding what your doing vs others who just do it. I greatly respect those that breed the way you do. My personal opinion is that I would rather go through a breeder that not only fully understands their husbandry and provides it but also understands how to do so to create the best of what they breed.

Thank you! It's a passion project and I hope the information helps customers and other breeders make good decisions. Only way we are going to succeed is with better information and a stronger market/community.

 

[Beman]

Thank you! It's a passion project and I hope the information helps customers and other breeders make good decisions. Only way we are going to succeed is with better information and a stronger market/community.

Well keep up the amazing work, Jonathan. And please keep sharing with us in the forum.

 

[leedragon]

I have a feeling these articles were a bit less accessible than I should have made them. There is and never will be anything similar about panther chameleon genetics and ball pythons. There are no known or discoverable dominant/co-dominant/recessive color traits. The first article addresses this. Happy to help explain it if you have a specific point to raise.

It about making chamelons into what ball pythons have been made. which is the route animals go when selective bred this way.

 

[iPardalis]

It about making chamelons into what ball pythons have been made. which is the route animals go when selective bred this way.

Selective breeding is not the same as line breeding or inbreeding - which is what you are referring to. I have no interest in those, but I do have breeding goals and traits I select for. There is nothing similar between selective breeding panther chameleons and ball pythons because ball pythons have a number of known (and simple) co-dominant/dominant/recessive genes which produce different morphs whereas panther chameleons have none. Panther chameleon colors are determined by polygenic inheritance which will never be as cut and dry as ball pythons. It also does not reward inbreeding (quite the opposite).

 

[salty dog]

What I say is 100% true……these animals same as humans…..are not exact replicas of mom & dad without inbreeding……………….as far as my breeding goes, I trade stock with everybody who breeds in the sac. And bay area…..I also have at least 1 clutch per year that is f-1……now that is established…….I imagine I will be kicked off this website platform for telling the truth……..also since I don’t encourage and promote this wbsites breeders…..