Flick having issues with his back legs

[randersonmtg]

My 3-year old panther chameleon Flick has been having some trouble this past month or so. He doesn't seem to use his hind legs very much. He tends to rest his butt on the branches instead of using his hind legs to grab them. He CAN use his legs, and can still squeeze my fingers, and doesn't show any signs of distress when I poke around to see if everything is fine. He is a bit clumsier because he isn't using those legs as much so i've been a bit worried about falling, so I babyproofed the harder parts of his cage. He's been eating, drinking and pooping very well and I've been dusting his feeders every day for the past month but he doesn't seem to be doing much better.

I took him to the vet, they took an x-ray and did some blood work (380$ oof) but they said a lot of the same things. He doesn't have MBD, but I have been supplementing his feeders every day with Reptivite (No D3) http://zoomed.eu/reptivite-without-d3/ and Repti Calcium (With D3). http://www.wag.com/reptile/p/zoo-med-labs-repti-calcium-with-d3-3-oz-121677. The vet said he WAS low on calcium but there was no issues with his bones. There MAY be a light displacement in one of his vertebra but they said they aren't 100% sure. They noticed a bit of yellowing in his mouth, but nothing to concern ourselves with. I bought a humidity reader which reads at 56, and his temp is 24.7C. I got a new 5.0 UV light since my last one may have been depleted. He really isn't using his back legs much, they're always sort of dangling and it's making him tumble, which makes me afraid of him hurting himself. The vet said his back leg muscles look weak, you can pull the skin on them where there should be muscles. Here are some pictures! http://imgur.com/T1WD021,UiDPOYI,RhnXIqe,24uOJ71,3N9SiD8,mIGasME,GtN6vVr
They prescribed an anti-inflammatory (Dexamethazone) which I used for 4 days like they said and they said if it was a hurt back the Dexamethazone would fix it. Lately he's been hanging upside-down a lot and sometimes sliding down or falling to the bottom of the cage. I get worried and pick him up to put him up top but he gets upset when I do. Should I be leaving him if he falls? I really don't know what to do. He's still eating and drinking and pooping and I'm doing everything I can. I just want him to be happy.

I also posted a thread on reddit about this and got some useful responses, but I would like more input.

http://www.reddit.com/r/Chameleons/comments/2d74el/early_signs_of_mbd_advice/

Chameleon Info:
Your Chameleon - Nose be panther chameleon, 3 years old, i've had him since he was 6 months.
Handling - Once every 3-4 days but lately moreso because he's falling
Feeding - Hand feeding meal worms and crickets every day depending on what he wants. Once a week I try to get him some goliaths. He eats well and has a bucket to eat more if he wants but he prefers I feed him because he's a baby.
Supplements - Zoomed Reptivite without D3 and calcium with d3. I mix them together and dust one of the feeders every day.
Watering - Mistking with zipdrip that goes off 5 times a day for 50 seconds each time. I also have a spray bottle that I spray him with and he likes to drink out of it because he is a baby.
Fecal Description - I looked at the poop thread and his poop seems fine. Color, consistency, urates all seem normal.
History - I brought him to the vet, they gave him a calcium and vitamin injection just incase. His blood test said his calcium was a bit low but nothing critical.

Cage Info:
Cage Type - Screen, very nice and big, top of the cage is about 6.5 feet above ground level.
Lighting - Reptisun UVB 5.0 Coil bulb. I also have a heater in the second dome. Lights are 8am-8pm.
Temperature - Floor is about 21C basking about 26C.
Humidity - Humidity is 60-80, i got a small disc that reads it.
Plants - One pothos potted plant and a whole bunch of fake vines. Also a few real vines (recent)
Placement - It's near the door to my room, I pass by it when I go to the bathroom or go to the kitchen.
Location - Montreal, QC Canada.

 

[randersonmtg]

Anybody?

 

[randersonmtg]

He's sleeping on the bottom of his cage now. I don't know if I should pick him up or leave him there.... I wish someone would respond.

 

[Lovereps]

Sorry your cham is having problems.
If I'm not mistaken, this week is the most popular week for vacation-taking in the USA.

Glad to see you've posted the help question & your answers.
My reply is not criticism of you but is instead an attempt to help you to try to help your cham.

Did the vet do tests to evaluate kidney function?
Failing kidneys can cause the problems you've described.

It is possible that your cham sustained an injury which led to the muscles atrophying. Muscles that aren't used "atrophy". This means they shrink.

I am not a vet but another possibility is his troubles may be the result of vitamin and mineral deficiencies.

It may not be full blown MBD but low calcium is known to cause muscle problems--particularly weak grip and falling.
Perhaps it is a combination of other vitamin and/or mineral deficiencies that are causing the issues he is having.

The things I see that are not as they should be in his care are these;

What do the feeders eat?
If you don't feed the feeder insects a nutritious diet, then they become nutrient deficient.
Basically just a calorie source and very little else.
If you add some silkworms or calciworms/phoenixworms into his diet, they can help raise his calcium levels.

You are also not using a multivitamin.
This, especially if combined with no or few nutrients in the feeders' diets is a serious problem.
There isn't a blood panel that the vet can run to check for all sorts of deficiencies.
Unless you are using a nutrient dense homemade gutload, it seems very likely that your cham is lacking some essential vitamins and minerals.

You are dusting 1 feeder every day with a 50% D3/50% plain calcium?
This is most likely at least one part of the calcium deficiency problem.

If the light was not replaced at 6 month intervals for quite some time, this may be another part of the problem--though you've now corrected that part.
The other concern about the lighting is that it's a heater and not a light or have I misunderstood you?
Perhaps he is not basking enough to properly digest his food.
A basking bulb should be a regular white incandescent light bulb, so he is attracted to it.
His temperatures are a bit low. The range for him should be ambient 75-80F (23-26C), basking 85-90F (29-32C) from here https://www.chameleonforums.com/care/caresheets/panther/

BTW, whoever posted on the Reddit forum about Zoomed calcium containing phosphorus was absolutely wrong.
Neither the plain calcium nor the calcium with D3 contains phosphorus and the labels state phosphorus free, so the chart there is outdated at best.
http://zoomed.com/db/products/EntryDetail.php?EntryID=1&DatabaseID=2&SearchID=5&SearchContext=YTo1OntzOjg6IlNlYXJjaElEIjtzOjE6IjUiO3M6MTA6IkRhdGFiYXNlSUQiO3M6MToiMiI7czo4OiJLZXl3b3JkcyI7czoxMjoicmVwdGljYWxjaXVtIjtzOjg6IlNlYXJjaF94IjtzOjE6IjAiO3M6ODoiU2VhcmNoX3kiO3M6MToiMCI7fQ==http://zoomed.com/db/products/EntryDetail.php?EntryID=2&DatabaseID=2&SearchID=5&SearchContext=YTo1OntzOjg6IlNlYXJjaElEIjtzOjE6IjUiO3M6MTA6IkRhdGFiYXNlSUQiO3M6MToiMiI7czo4OiJLZXl3b3JkcyI7czoxMjoicmVwdGljYWxjaXVtIjtzOjg6IlNlYXJjaF94IjtzOjE6IjAiO3M6ODoiU2VhcmNoX3kiO3M6MToiMCI7fQ==

I would put a thick towel in the bottom of his cage to keep him from breaking bones when he falls.

Many Panthers have yellow insides of their mouths, so that wouldn't be an issue.


More on nutrition here https://www.chameleonforums.com/care/food/

I hope you find this reply useful.

 

[Lovereps]

He's sleeping on the bottom of his cage now. I don't know if I should pick him up or leave him there.... I wish someone would respond.

No harm in letting him sleep on the floor of the cage. He is obviously unsure of his ability to grip and he doesn't want to fall.

I would make the dietary and other improvements , treat him for MBD and see if he regains his griphttps://www.chameleonforums.com/what-metabolic-bone-disease-mbd-looks-like-how-happens-how-fix-95071/

 

[randersonmtg]

Thanks so much lovereps! The vet said they didn't notice anything wrong in the x-rays, they saw a vertebra that they weren't sure might be displaced, that's what the anti-inflammatory was supposed to correct. My worms are in corn meal and I chop up some carrots in there. The store I go to cutloads the crickets with dry cat food and potatoes. I also give the crickets water munchies.

I AM dusting with a multivitamin. I dust one feeder with a mix of the reptivite and the repticalcium, I was more concerned about me dusting too much than not enough!

They did check his kidneys and they said they're good. I will replace my small heater with a regular bulb then assuming his cage won't get too cold.

When he's on the ground should I leave him or pick him up? He gets upset when I touch him at night. The bottom is soft so I wouldn't worry about him hurting himself.

 

[randersonmtg]

The vet said he does not have MBD. The X-rays confirmed this. He doesn't have a kidney problem either. The only problem they saw was a calcium deficiency which I am correcting.

 

[randersonmtg]

I'm going to get some calcium without D3 to use daily and only use the D3 once every week or two. I guess I will only use the multivitamin once a week as well. Do you think this problem can be reversed or is this something that will only get worse or stay the same?

 

[Lovereps]

Thanks so much lovereps! The vet said they didn't notice anything wrong in the x-rays, they saw a vertebra that they weren't sure might be displaced, that's what the anti-inflammatory was supposed to correct. My worms are in corn meal and I chop up some carrots in there. The store I go to cutloads the crickets with dry cat food and potatoes. I also give the crickets water munchies.

You're very welcome.

Nutritional deficiencies do cause problems and can look like other illnesses.

Did your vet do bloodwork to assess kidney function?

I know you said he doesn't have MBD but wanted to emphasize the need for more calcium--which is what you do to treat calcium deficiency. MBD is really just a more severe version of calcium deficiency--where the body is taking its much-needed calcium from the bones.

You are right that too many supplements are harmful, just as too few supplements do harm.
The recommended supplement schedule is calcium on most feedings, calcium with D3 2x a month and multivitamin 2x a month.
It may be easier for you to do the supplements this way.

None of the gutloads you mentioned is a good gutload. The cat food is particularly bad.
The crickets are fine with it but the cham's health--especially the kidneys--- can suffer as a result.
The water munchies add no nutrients.
Sandrachameleon who has quite a bit of knowledge about cham nutrition states Avoid dog food, cat food, fish food, and other prepared foods that are heavy sources of animal protein and/or fat and may provide excessive preformed vitamin A and also D (a little now and then is okay, but too much can lead to gout and other issues).

Making your own gutloads to improve the feeders' nutrition may make a difference for your cham..
The forum put together a page that tells more about good gutloading and has links to even more gutloading info https://www.chameleonforums.com/care/food/

If you choose the right wattage bulb his basking and ambient temps should be fine.
More on lighting here https://www.chameleonforums.com/care/lighting/

A nighttime temperature drop is fine within reason.
The caresheet for Panthers says a drop down to the 50s (10 Celsius) is fine.
https://www.chameleonforums.com/care/caresheets/panther/

Why upset your cham, especially when he isn't feeling well?
No harm will come to him by sleeping on the floor.

 

[Lovereps]

I'm going to get some calcium without D3 to use daily and only use the D3 once every week or two. I guess I will only use the multivitamin once a week as well. Do you think this problem can be reversed or is this something that will only get worse or stay the same?

I thought you already were using calcium without D3. If he has been given calcium with D3 only, then that is surely a problem.
Many petstores tell you that it's fine to do but it isn't good for chameleons.
As far as whether he will get better, get worse or stay the same; It depends on exactly what has happened internally and you and I have no way of knowing that.
You have nothing to lose by properly gutloading all the feeders from now on and changing your supplement schedule.
I wouldn't give him any D3 for a month and then start giving him D3 2x a month.
Vitamins should also be 2x a month.
Calcium without D3 every feeding or nearly every feeding.
I hope he does make a full recovery and that whatever happens, you will let us know.

It's by sharing our chameleon experiences that other people can learn.