Fell While Preparing to Shed. Had one eye closed.

[cantgetagoodsn]

Current Problem

Today Kenshō was crawling on top of his TK Chameleons Large shooting gallery and fell to the bottom of the cage. He froze and became pitch black. I decided to help him up and look for obvious injuries. I didn't see any so I put him back which he gladly rushed to the nearest leaf. Since the fall he seems to be a lot more lethargic than normal.

He also seems to be preparing for his first shed in my care. His "colors" are getting dull, yawning, and stretching which can be signs of shedding. He started rubbing his eyes on branches yesterday and today (to be expected) but I saw him rub his eye on a pointed part of a branch, which of course is practically the only spot that had a small point. Later in the day I saw that eye was closed and didn't seem to be trying to flush it.

I decided to turn on the mistking and fogger to help him flush whatever might be in his eye, if anything. He immediately brightened up, "ran" towards the fogger/mistking in and out then made his way under the leaves.

So, with the mild lethargic nature and brief closing of his left eye, I thought I would take this opportunity to ask about how I should approach monitoring him to make sure there are no injuries and that his eye is okay. And any other considerations

I also thought this would be a good time for a husbandry review. Thanks!


Chameleon

Your Chameleon - The species, sex, and age of your chameleon. How long has it been in your care?

• Male - YBBB Ambilobe - 3 months
• In my care since 08/01/2020

Handling - How often do you handle your chameleon?

• Rarely. Once to move him to my new apartment and once when he fell so I could give him a look over.

Feeding - What are you feeding your cham? What amount? What is the schedule? How are you gut-loading your feeders?

• Feeders - 1/4" crickets every day in the morning (mostly) but offer him crickets throughout the day. He seems to eat between 4–7 from what I can tell. I plan on adding more variety, but have only had him a little over a week.
• Feeder gutload - Arcadia EarthPro InsectFuel (I could do better here.)
• Feeder hydration - water cubes from premiumcrickets.com.

Supplements - What brand and type of calcium and vitamin products are you dusting your feeders with and what is the schedule?

• Every feeding - Arcadia EarthPro-A
• Once every two weeks - Repashy Calcium Plus LoD (I haven't had the change to give it to him yet)

Watering - What kind of watering technique do you use? How often and how long to you mist? Do you see your chameleon drinking?

• MistKing - several times throughout the night for a few minutes and once during the day for 5 mins for drinking until I install my dripper.
• Fogger - 5x 30 min sessions throughout the night.

Fecal Description - Briefly note colors and consistency from recent droppings. Has this chameleon ever been tested for parasites?

• Relatively solid brown with white urates
• Has not been tested for parasites yet

History - Any previous information about your cham that might be useful to others when trying to help you.

• Not that this form doesn't cover.

Cage Info

Cage Type - Describe your cage (Glass, Screen, Combo?) What are the dimensions?

• Reptibreeze XL - 2'x2'x4' screen cage

Lighting - What brand, model, and types of lighting are you using? What is your daily lighting schedule?

• UVB - Reptisun T8 5.0 24" (Arcadia Pro T5 Fixture 6% Bulb 46" is on the way)
• Basking - ZooMed 150W basking bulb with dimmer to reduce heat (Arcadia Halogen 75W Basking Bulb)
• General/Plant lighting - Arcadia Jungle Dawn LED Bar - 34"
• Lights on at 7am basking on 730am. Basking off at 630pm lights off 7pm.
• All lights and basking are 4" from the top of the cage and 9"–10" from the highest branches/leaves

Temperature - What temp range have you created (cage floor to basking spot)? Lowest overnight temp? How do you measure these temps?

• Basking - 79°–81°
• Ambient temp - 75°–78° (I know this needs to be lower but I moved to a new apartment without AC. Open to recommendations to keep the temp down)
• Overnight Temp - I'm honestly not 100% sure. I need to wake up later tonight an record a couple of times.
• Two thermometer/hygrometer with remote sensors for accurate placement

Humidity - What are your humidity levels? How are you creating and maintaining these levels? What do you use to measure humidity?

• Day - about 50%
• Night - I need to wake up to record, but probably higher since misting and fogging is happening at night

Plants - Are you using live plants? If so, what kind?

• Pothos
• Scheflerra
• Calathea Shining Star
• No fake plants

Placement - Where is your cage located? Is it near any fans, air vents, or high traffic areas? At what height is the top of the cage relative to your room floor?

• Located near my desk in a dining/study away from my living room/kitchen.
• No fans or air vents that are active.
• Not sure if it's "high traffic" since it's just me, but it is by my desk I work from.
• The 2x2x4 reptibreeze is 18" off the ground in a 72" wire shelving unit.

Location - Where are you geographically located?

• San Francisco, CA

 

[NashansCamos]

A good vet may be able to tell you what's wrong. your husbandry looks good but I personally wouldn't fog during the night with a baby because their lungs are smaller but with the 30 minute sections its probably fine.

Do you have photos of his closed eye?

 

[cantgetagoodsn]

A good vet may be able to tell you what's wrong. your husbandry looks good but I personally wouldn't fog during the night with a baby because their lungs are smaller but with the 30 minute sections its probably fine.

Do you have photos of his closed eye?

No pictures of his eye closed. I've only seen it twice for about 10 second periods, but know this is still a no no. If I see him with his eyes closed again I'll be sure to take another picture.

For all I know I could just be a worried new Dad, but better safe than sorry.

 

[cantgetagoodsn]

Well, now he's doing acrobatics to catch the crickets I let loose in his cage...

 

[Beman]

Current Problem

Today Kenshō was crawling on top of his TK Chameleons Large shooting gallery and fell to the bottom of the cage. He froze and became pitch black. I decided to help him up and look for obvious injuries. I didn't see any so I put him back which he gladly rushed to the nearest leaf. Since the fall he seems to be a lot more lethargic than normal.

He also seems to be preparing for his first shed in my care. His "colors" are getting dull, yawning, and stretching which can be signs of shedding. He started rubbing his eyes on branches yesterday and today (to be expected) but I saw him rub his eye on a pointed part of a branch, which of course is practically the only spot that had a small point. Later in the day I saw that eye was closed and didn't seem to be trying to flush it.

I decided to turn on the mistking and fogger to help him flush whatever might be in his eye, if anything. He immediately brightened up, "ran" towards the fogger/mistking in and out then made his way under the leaves.

So, with the mild lethargic nature and brief closing of his left eye, I thought I would take this opportunity to ask about how I should approach monitoring him to make sure there are no injuries and that his eye is okay. And any other considerations

I also thought this would be a good time for a husbandry review. Thanks!


Chameleon

Your Chameleon - The species, sex, and age of your chameleon. How long has it been in your care?

• Male - YBBB Ambilobe - 3 months
• In my care since 08/01/2020

Handling - How often do you handle your chameleon?

• Rarely. Once to move him to my new apartment and once when he fell so I could give him a look over.

Feeding - What are you feeding your cham? What amount? What is the schedule? How are you gut-loading your feeders?

• Feeders - 1/4" crickets every day in the morning (mostly) but offer him crickets throughout the day. He seems to eat between 4–7 from what I can tell. I plan on adding more variety, but have only had him a little over a week.
• Feeder gutload - Arcadia EarthPro InsectFuel (I could do better here.)
• Feeder hydration - water cubes from premiumcrickets.com.

Supplements - What brand and type of calcium and vitamin products are you dusting your feeders with and what is the schedule?

• Every feeding - Arcadia EarthPro-A
• Once every two weeks - Repashy Calcium Plus LoD (I haven't had the change to give it to him yet)

Watering - What kind of watering technique do you use? How often and how long to you mist? Do you see your chameleon drinking?

• MistKing - several times throughout the night for a few minutes and once during the day for 5 mins for drinking until I install my dripper.
• Fogger - 5x 30 min sessions throughout the night.

Fecal Description - Briefly note colors and consistency from recent droppings. Has this chameleon ever been tested for parasites?

• Relatively solid brown with white urates
• Has not been tested for parasites yet

History - Any previous information about your cham that might be useful to others when trying to help you.

• Not that this form doesn't cover.

Cage Info

Cage Type - Describe your cage (Glass, Screen, Combo?) What are the dimensions?

• Reptibreeze XL - 2'x2'x4' screen cage

Lighting - What brand, model, and types of lighting are you using? What is your daily lighting schedule?

• UVB - Reptisun T8 5.0 24" (Arcadia Pro T5 Fixture 6% Bulb 46" is on the way)
• Basking - ZooMed 150W basking bulb with dimmer to reduce heat (Arcadia Halogen 75W Basking Bulb)
• General/Plant lighting - Arcadia Jungle Dawn LED Bar - 34"
• Lights on at 7am basking on 730am. Basking off at 630pm lights off 7pm.
• All lights and basking are 4" from the top of the cage and 9"–10" from the highest branches/leaves

Temperature - What temp range have you created (cage floor to basking spot)? Lowest overnight temp? How do you measure these temps?

• Basking - 79°–81°
• Ambient temp - 75°–78° (I know this needs to be lower but I moved to a new apartment without AC. Open to recommendations to keep the temp down)
• Overnight Temp - I'm honestly not 100% sure. I need to wake up later tonight an record a couple of times.
• Two thermometer/hygrometer with remote sensors for accurate placement

Humidity - What are your humidity levels? How are you creating and maintaining these levels? What do you use to measure humidity?

• Day - about 50%
• Night - I need to wake up to record, but probably higher since misting and fogging is happening at night

Plants - Are you using live plants? If so, what kind?

• Pothos
• Scheflerra
• Calathea Shining Star
• No fake plants

Placement - Where is your cage located? Is it near any fans, air vents, or high traffic areas? At what height is the top of the cage relative to your room floor?

• Located near my desk in a dining/study away from my living room/kitchen.
• No fans or air vents that are active.
• Not sure if it's "high traffic" since it's just me, but it is by my desk I work from.
• The 2x2x4 reptibreeze is 18" off the ground in a 72" wire shelving unit.

Location - Where are you geographically located?

• San Francisco, CA

So almost everything is spot on with husbandry.
May sure he can easily get to the shooting gallery and that the middle of it sits at basking level so he can see in it since he is only eating 4-7 a day. He should be eating more like 12-15 easy right now.
Misting I would switch up a bit. No need to run at night. Adjust your basking time from 8am off at 6pm. Then run a 3 minute misting at 7:15am and you can run the 4-5 minute at 6:30pm. This will give an opportunity to drink/clean eyes in the morning prior to basking kicking on and at night when it has kicked off and the cage has started to drop in temp.
Fogging I would run non stop at the coolest point in the night. I run mine from 12am-5am. It is absolutely fine to fog with babies. Don't run this at all during the day due to the RI risk with lighting on.

Per dropping room temp. I am pretty far north of you in Eureka, I have found opening windows helps here. I do not have airconditioning either but a good cross breeze can do wonders. At night I open a window and put a box fan in it to pull in the cool outside air. Not pointing at the cages of course. I typically do this from 7pm-10pm and can get my temps down to about 65.

Per the fall. He probably shocked himself. Keep an eye on him.

 

[Beman]

A good vet may be able to tell you what's wrong. your husbandry looks good but I personally wouldn't fog during the night with a baby because their lungs are smaller but with the 30 minute sections its probably fine.

Do you have photos of his closed eye?

This feedback makes no sense at all and is incorrect.... What are you basing this feedback on? Did you read an article pertaining to fogging and baby chams?

 

[cantgetagoodsn]

So almost everything is spot on with husbandry.
May sure he can easily get to the shooting gallery and that the middle of it sits at basking level so he can see in it since he is only eating 4-7 a day. He should be eating more like 12-15 easy right now.
Misting I would switch up a bit. No need to run at night. Adjust your basking time from 8am off at 6pm. Then run a 3 minute misting at 7:15am and you can run the 4-5 minute at 6:30pm. This will give an opportunity to drink/clean eyes in the morning prior to basking kicking on and at night when it has kicked off and the cage has started to drop in temp.
Fogging I would run non stop at the coolest point in the night. I run mine from 12am-5am. It is absolutely fine to fog with babies. Don't run this at all during the day due to the RI risk with lighting on.

Per dropping room temp. I am pretty far north of you in Eureka, I have found opening windows helps here. I do not have airconditioning either but a good cross breeze can do wonders. At night I open a window and put a box fan in it to pull in the cool outside air. Not pointing at the cages of course. I typically do this from 7pm-10pm and can get my temps down to about 65.

Per the fall. He probably shocked himself. Keep an eye on him.

I attached a picture of his shooting gallery location. It's at basking level and there's a branch that leads up right to it. It's the first place he goes in the morning or when I open his cage. He uses it, but he seems hesitant compared to roaming crickets or my hand. Although he hasn't taken much interest in crickets from my hand since I moved to my new apartment

I thought he should be eating closer to 12-15. I wonder if it's because he's still in a relatively new home. Upcoming shed?

I was following the misting schedule here: https://chameleonacademy.com/chameleon-cage-set-up-naturalistic-hydration/ Your comment makes sense about the misting vs fogging at night. I do wonder since my cage is all screen (for now) if I would lose a lot of humidity if I just fog.

I love the idea of misting before and after basking turns on and off. I think I'll give that a go!

Now that I don't have a tower of boxes in front of my second window, I've opened them both. It seems to help a lot. Not sure if this will work every night due to the SF city noises, but I'll experiment and see how it goes.

Thanks!

 

[Beman]

I attached a picture of his shooting gallery location. It's at basking level and there's a branch that leads up right to it. It's the first place he goes in the morning or when I open his cage. He uses it, but he seems hesitant compared to roaming crickets or my hand. Although he hasn't taken much interest in crickets from my hand since I moved to my new apartment

I thought he should be eating closer to 12-15. I wonder if it's because he's still in a relatively new home. Upcoming shed?

I was following the misting schedule here: https://chameleonacademy.com/chameleon-cage-set-up-naturalistic-hydration/ Your comment makes sense about the misting vs fogging at night. I do wonder since my cage is all screen (for now) if I would lose a lot of humidity if I just fog.

I love the idea of misting before and after basking turns on and off. I think I'll give that a go!

Now that I don't have a tower of boxes in front of my second window, I've opened them both. It seems to help a lot. Not sure if this will work every night due to the SF city noises, but I'll experiment and see how it goes.

Thanks!

Yeah so load that feeder up. Throw 2 dozen in. Part is that it is new to him. Part may be that he does not realize there are more in there. Took my baby a few days to really understand after loading it fully.

Yes, I follow Bills advice as well. I based mine off his podcast. If you are fogging you do not need to mist at night. With the fogger running non stop at night it is going to continue to fill that area with fog... So your levels will be much higher even though there is screen. Even in mine. I have 3 side panels. But the fog will naturally roll down and out no matter what lol. So on continually through the night will keep that humidity level high so he is breathing in the fog and pulling the hydration from it. I only mist prior to and after basking light. I do run 2 shorter sessions in the morning because I have to bring my humidity really far down with my ambient level here. And then I run two 3minute sessions after basking kicks off. I run a shorter basking time then you do though.
https://www.chameleonbreeder.com/podcast/ep-89-naturalistic-hydration-for-chameleons/

We have crazy homeless people here so I only leave mine open until 10pm. Should help pull your ambient down and if you need to get a box fan for the window at night.

 

[cantgetagoodsn]

Yeah so load that feeder up. Throw 2 dozen in. Part is that it is new to him. Part may be that he does not realize there are more in there. Took my baby a few days to really understand after loading it fully.

Yes, I follow Bills advice as well. I based mine off his podcast. If you are fogging you do not need to mist at night. With the fogger running non stop at night it is going to continue to fill that area with fog... So your levels will be much higher even though there is screen. Even in mine. I have 3 side panels. But the fog will naturally roll down and out no matter what lol. So on continually through the night will keep that humidity level high so he is breathing in the fog and pulling the hydration from it. I only mist prior to and after basking light. I do run 2 shorter sessions in the morning because I have to bring my humidity really far down with my ambient level here. And then I run two 3minute sessions after basking kicks off. I run a shorter basking time then you do though.
https://www.chameleonbreeder.com/podcast/ep-89-naturalistic-hydration-for-chameleons/

We have crazy homeless people here so I only leave mine open until 10pm. Should help pull your ambient down and if you need to get a box fan for the window at night.

Oh, overloading it at first is a great idea! He seeeeems to notice there are more in there, but maybe not. Having that many should make them move around quite a bit. I'll try it first thing in the morning!

I'll also try making those adjustments to basking and fogging times. It makes a ton of sense. If I'm fogging that much, which I don't mind, I'll need to solve for how fast the 4L fogger depletes. I currently don't have distilled or RO water access in my apartment building. Maybe I need to look into installing an RO filter, IF my apartment even allows me to do something like that.

 

[Beman]

Oh, overloading it at first is a great idea! He seeeeems to notice there are more in there, but maybe not. Having that many should make them move around quite a bit. I'll try it first thing in the morning!

I'll also try making those adjustments to basking and fogging times. It makes a ton of sense. If I'm fogging that much, which I don't mind, I'll need to solve for how fast the 4L fogger depletes. I currently don't have distilled or RO water access in my apartment building. Maybe I need to look into installing an RO filter, IF my apartment even allows me to do something like that.

Yes! It makes the feeders more active. It worked for my boy. Now he literally waits next to the feeder run every morning and picks them all off in the first hour.

They make some nice RO filters that hook up to your own plumbing and can be removed from it. Just say it is for your health if you have to but honestly they would never know. You will want RO or distilled for your fogger and the mister though so you don't deal with calcium build up from tap water..

 

[cantgetagoodsn]

Yes, definitely RO or distilled. No tap! Looks like I have some RO filter installation research to do. Thanks again!

 

[Beman]

Yes, definitely RO or distilled. No tap! Looks like I have some RO filter installation research to do. Thanks again!

Your welcome

 

[NashansCamos]

This feedback makes no sense at all and is incorrect.... What are you basing this feedback on? Did you read an article pertaining to fogging and baby chams?

I have seen multiple threads where enthusiasts tell owners to be careful with fogging babies because of their lung sizes.....

I could try to find the threads if you wanted to

 

[Beman]

I have seen multiple threads where enthusiasts tell owners to be careful with fogging babies because of their lung sizes.....

I could try to find the threads if you wanted to

It is not correct though which is why I spoke up. I have never seen it anywhere within the forum. So yes, if you find them I would love to see them and what specifically they are saying. I have never heard this even from the leaders in our community.

Think of it this way. We fog to mimic their natural environment... They are exposed to the exact same fog in nature as the adults. If fogging babies was harmful it would kill them off in the wild and we would not have cham populations there.

Now using this method needs to be done properly at any age. Always when temps are cooler then 70. I want to say exact temps recommended were 68 or cooler but I do not remember this specifically. Never when lights are on due to RI risk. And proper cleaning of the fogger/tubes to make sure it is not growing bacteria or mold.

 

[NashansCamos]

here is one example. there was one more which I saw a couple of months ago but i can't find it. It does not specifically say that fogging with babies is completely wrong, but @nightanole said that there is a risk associated with fogging babies so in my opinion, I personally would not fog a baby. it is up to the op there is a risk but op can do what he wants to do. IMO it is an unnecessary risk that can be avoided easily. I have a 3 month old, and i'm going to fog him once he gets 6-9 months old. Hope this helps

 

[NashansCamos]

Although i'm sure there are some cases where fogging with babies won't hurt it and it will be fine.... but..... its a risk that i wouldn't take. But its not a huge risk because all chams are prone to RI and even adults can get it from fogging. but it sounds like its easier for babies to get ri's from fogging.

My advice is to wait for a few months. You mentioned that you do it in 30min bursts so it would probably be ok but the risk is still there. You have a choice.

 

[Beman]

here is one example. there was one more which I saw a couple of months ago but i can't find it. It does not specifically say that fogging with babies is completely wrong, but @nightanole said that there is a risk associated with fogging babies so in my opinion, I personally would not fog a baby. it is up to the op there is a risk but op can do what he wants to do. IMO it is an unnecessary risk that can be avoided easily. I have a 3 month old, and i'm going to fog him once he gets 6-9 months old. Hope this helpsView attachment 274510

Ok and can I please get the link to the thread so I can see the context that @nightanole was speaking to?

 

[nightanole]

Im not going to dig up the data. But Basically there was a formula for droplet size vs animal lung size. It was found that once the reptile was smaller than 150 grams, the typical droplet size of the ultra sonic humidifier was too large. So instead o breathing in "humid air" its more like you are just hand spraying directly into their lungs. So the droplets are big enough to transport bacteria directly into their lungs.

Lets think about this. "Fogging" is just exploding water into droplets using sound. Its not creating humid air, that comes after the droplets evaporate and turn into water vapor, and by that time you cant "see" it. You are making 50 micron droplets (or the manufacture is lying) which is the limit for a 150g reptile(or odds are any creature).

 

[NashansCamos]

theres not much to see there was only 1 reply to the original thread

https://www.chameleonforums.com/threads/foggers.174652/#post-1560452

 

[NashansCamos]

Im not going to dig up the data. But Basically there was a formula for droplet size vs animal lung size. It was found that once the reptile was smaller than 150 grams, the typical droplet size of the ultra sonic humidifier was too large. So instead o breathing in "humid air" its more like you are just hand spraying directly into their lungs. So the droplets are big enough to transport bacteria directly into their lungs.

Lets think about this. "Fogging" is just exploding water into droplets using sound. Its not creating humid air, that comes after the droplets evaporate and turn into water vapor, and by that time you cant "see" it.

huh my female veiled is lighter than 150 grams so i shouldnt fog her because of that risk?