Feeding large chameleons warm blooded prey

[ferretinmyshoes]

Oh and they're the opposite of human forget using sunscreen they need all the sun they can get. AND REMEMBER TO CHANG ULTRA VIOLET AND BASKING LIGHTS EVER 6 MONTHS!

I'M sorry to sound rude I love my chameleons and get heated when people don't take time to research

Ironic because you clearly don't have any idea what you're talking about. Gout and MBD - not same.

 

[jpowell86]

I haven't found you to be rude per se. I find it hilarious that you are telling people to educate themselves on chameleon husbandry when obviously you haven't done so yourself.

 

[lolaandlucy]

MY MALE VEILED CHAMELEON LEMMY is almost 7 years old and he was bought from local pet store pet Co so yes I do think I can I know what is what.
THE LIFE SPAN OF A MALE VEILED CHAMELEON IS 6 YEARS FYI. Good night

 

[jpowell86]

Not trying to burst your "I'm making a point" bubble, but male veiled chameleons are known to live to 7 years on average. Most taken care of properly can live even longer. I have seen plenty, including my own, live over ten years of age with ease.

 

[alphakenc]

BASKING LIGHTS EVER 6 MONTHS!

What type of basking light are u using that requires to change every 6 month??Good night

 

[DanSB]

I didn't think it was possible but this thread got even weirder.

This is why we can't have adult discussions. How very sad.

 

[kinyonga]

Gout...
http://reptile-parrots.com/forums/showthread.php/3969-Gout-in-Reptiles

Acute and chronic renal disease in reptiles..
http://veterinarycalendar.dvm360.com/acute-and-chronic-renal-disease-reptiles-proceedings

 

[leedragon]

MY MALE VEILED CHAMELEON LEMMY is almost 7 years old and he was bought from local pet store pet Co so yes I do think I can I know what is what.
THE LIFE SPAN OF A MALE VEILED CHAMELEON IS 6 YEARS FYI. Good night

I have been educated with the knowledge that yemes can become 20 years old and females around 13 but that was back in 2006. don´t know maybe the facts about it has changed

 

[jajeanpierre]

MY MALE VEILED CHAMELEON LEMMY is almost 7 years old and he was bought from local pet store pet Co so yes I do think I can I know what is what.
THE LIFE SPAN OF A MALE VEILED CHAMELEON IS 6 YEARS FYI. Good night

Your argument that simply because your veiled is alive at 6 years of age makes you an expert on diet and care of veileds is a little flawed. One single animal does is not a valid sample size. It means nothing and might say more about the individual chameleon's genes and immune system than your husbandry.

 

[DanSB]

Your argument that simply because your veiled is alive at 6 years of age makes you an expert on diet and care of veileds is a little flawed. One single animal does is not a valid sample size. It means nothing and might say more about the individual chameleon's genes and immune system than your husbandry.

This is a VERY important point that in my opinion is often overlooked. Without extensive research (that our house vet gave a good indication of how these studies work above) conclusive evidence will continue to be lacking.

Success or failure by a small group does not give us anything more than a data point.

The sad thing to me (and the reason I was irritated) is that I know for a fact many members here either have, or do feed vertebrates. Most will not come forward and share their results because of the general reactionary responses.

 

[oneillchameleons]

The main issue is essentially the nutrients in a pinkie mouse in comparison to say, 2 well gutloaded, dusted Dubia roaches. I have a hard time believing that there are any more nutrients in a pinkie mouse, in fact I'd assume quite the opposite. So what's the point of feeding them at all when an all insect diet is likely more nutritious?

Pinkie mice:
Protein: 12%
Fat: 4.72%
Fibre: 0.2%
Moisture: 80%
*unable to gutload so no additional nutrients

Dubia roach:
Protein:36%
Fat: 7%
Fibre: 3.25%
Moisture: 59%
*able to gutload with a variety of nutritious items

There seems to be some indication that pinky mice have more calcium, although none of the info I found was consistent. With the methods we have of administering calcium now (liquid, powdered, gutload etc) it negates the benefits of feeding vertebrates altogether in my opinion.

 

[gotwqqd]

The main issue is essentially the nutrients in a pinkie mouse in comparison to say, 2 well gutloaded, dusted Dubia roaches. I have a hard time believing that there are any more nutrients in a pinkie mouse, in fact I'd assume quite the opposite. So what's the point of feeding them at all when an all insect diet is likely more nutritious?

Pinkie mice:
Protein: 12%
Fat: 4.72%
Fibre: 0.2%
Moisture: 80%
*unable to gutload so no additional nutrients

Dubia roach:
Protein:36%
Fat: 7%
Fibre: 3.25%
Moisture: 59%
*able to gutload with a variety of nutritious items

There seems to be some indication that pinky mice have more calcium, although none of the info I found was consistent. With the methods we have of administering calcium now (liquid, powdered, gutload etc) it negates the benefits of feeding vertebrates altogether in my opinion.

You fail to consider minerals/vitamins/amino acids etc.

 

[DanSB]

You fail to consider minerals/vitamins/amino acids etc.

This is a good point. I don't think anyone is advocating that vertebrates would make a good staple feeder. Rather an occasional supplemental feeder that could (possibly) provide trace elements / minerals that are either not provided, or not easy to absorb in the methods we currently use.

As such I believe the standard bullet point nutrition values given aren't really relevant to the discussion.

 

[oneillchameleons]

Yes there is certainly a lack of good data on in depth nutrition values. I guess it really comes down to the preference of the owner, but until I see some good data, I'll assume that an all insect diet is the best option. I've never fed vertebrates and all my chameleons are in stunning health. I agree that I'd love to hear from more keepers that do feed vertebrates and get their input though. I've kept carnivorous snakes/reptiles in the past and wouldn't be averse to feeding to them to chams if I absolutely knew they got some benefit from them that an all insect diet wasn't providing.

 

[Extensionofgreen]

Yes there is certainly a lack of good data on in depth nutrition values. I guess it really comes down to the preference of the owner, but until I see some good data, I'll assume that an all insect diet is the best option. I've never fed vertebrates and all my chameleons are in stunning health. I agree that I'd love to hear from more keepers that do feed vertebrates and get their input though. I've kept carnivorous snakes/reptiles in the past and wouldn't be averse to feeding to them to chams if I absolutely knew they got some benefit from them that an all insect diet wasn't providing.

This is the exact point of this discussion! All I wanted was to entertain possibilities, both negative and positive. I gave theories and an idea, for critique, but with no indication that I would be feeding vertebrates. Things got long, twisted, then finally came around to this most wonderful statement!

 

[nightanole]

Ill be honest. In the early days (and i mean the early 1990's with the good ol vita lights and veileds costing more than parsons) EVERYONE in my group got 70% of their food from pinkies. It could be a veiled,beardy,frilly,panther, you name it, if it ate it, it got it. The suckers were cheap at 20 cents per fuzzy, and they only needed one a week.

Vet bills went away and life expectancy went up almost 50%, and deaths were not due kidney failure, as soon as i went with an all insect diet for the group.

Im just one guy, but if the entire batch goes from the min to the max for life expectancy with just a food change, its got to count for something.

Im with the rest of the "feels" on this thread. Just because they will eat it and like it, doesnt mean its good for them. Ive seen cane toads eat ping-pong balls that were bounced in front of them in the wild...

 

[Extensionofgreen]

That's great information! That's one I'm looking for, someone who has had experience in the comparison of feeding vertebrates vs an all insect diet. I think it's a start, but it sounds like your feeding was the extreme end, with a large portion of the diet being vertebrate and no one suspects or advocates that as beneficial.

Interestingly, in my continued research on the topic and to prepare for my chameleon's vet visit, I came across this ( see image ) on Dr.Stahl's website, for Chameleon care. Interestingly, the other information is spot on, so I'm imagining his suggestions are at least not supported by his experience and research.
I don't want to awaken "support" for feeding vertebrates, nor am I doing it, suggesting others do it, nor am I ruling out the possibility of offering an occasional vertebrate. I'm only compiling information, giving it thought, and sharing in a discussion. I want emotional protest to be kept out of the conversation and only facts, experience, theories and opinions involving the inclusion of facts or supported ideas of a useful nature, no proclamations of moral, ethical, or non scientific ideals can be saved for other threads.

It's important to compile facts, whether the facts support or contradict our opinion, because facts give new hobbiest solid foundations and if they clearly see compelling evidence and not just moral objections, it creates a stronger impression and helps ensure the best approach for the chameleon is being followed.

I appreciate the thoughtfulness and proves rive thinking going on in this thread, even if stirs the pot for some. Stirring the pot is a side effect, not the intention.

 

[Cheeky]

There is a lot of anecdotal evidence on the forum that our captive raised chams don't do as well as wild chameleons.

Really you would expect the opposite to be true.

There is clearly a hole in our current understanding of their needs which could be filled to help all of our chams live a better life.

Any serious, well considered attempt to fill this hole should be applauded and investigated so far as is practical.

 

[RescueHerp]

Well i'm going to put my 2.3 cents in on this subject as it's often broached with various other herps as well. I scanned through the entire thread and some of the responses are rather emotional and we'll simply bypass those you are welcome to your emotions. Others like the gout/mbd person are rather confusing a little reading goes a long way.

The animals toxicity reply I have a response to I don't recall who stated it but dogs eating chocolate are not a fair comparison, in nature most insects are bright flashy advertising poison/toxicity and predators quickly learn which to avoid. Dogs however will eat anything that smells good and are incapable of connecting the resulting sickness (I have two accreditation and train dogs professionally for a living which is how I pay for rescuing animals). I am sure in nature many predators eat something they shouldn't and die from it but survival and darwin dictates these animals arent going to do so often enough since they as a species are still here. dogs and cats are tailored we created/bred them from wild animals. apples and oranges my friend. of course if we are presenting poisonous prey that may be different like offering a monarch butterfly for a snack. but mice and birds aren't inherently poisonous.

So here's my spin/view on vertebrates for most carnivorous/omnivorous herps. It's completely going to depend on the size and nature and the normal diet of the herp. The smaller the herp the more likely it is to avoid areas with strong rodent/mammal smells and bird smells because adult rodents/mammal and birds can be predators too if you are small enough to be lunch...... They may luck into a meal or two every now and then but definitely never as a staple (unless birds and mice are their staple such as various snakes etc.). As a once a month thing to provide aminos/fatts etc that may not be normally available and to diversify diet I see no reason not to the smaller the herp the less often such foods should be offered. Remember the simple fact of science there are no toxic substances only toxic amounts.

Now as for feeding them to chameleons in general if Gout from overly fatty foods is common I would consider it risky to feed something like that more than once a month or every 2 months.

Just my thoughts.

 

[Virgil1972]

Well i'm going to put my 2.3 cents in on this subject as it's often broached with various other herps as well. I scanned through the entire thread and some of the responses are rather emotional and we'll simply bypass those you are welcome to your emotions. Others like the gout/mbd person are rather confusing a little reading goes a long way.

The animals toxicity reply I have a response to I don't recall who stated it but dogs eating chocolate are not a fair comparison, in nature most insects are bright flashy advertising poison/toxicity and predators quickly learn which to avoid. Dogs however will eat anything that smells good and are incapable of connecting the resulting sickness (I have two accreditation and train dogs professionally for a living which is how I pay for rescuing animals). I am sure in nature many predators eat something they shouldn't and die from it but survival and darwin dictates these animals arent going to do so often enough since they as a species are still here. dogs and cats are tailored we created/bred them from wild animals. apples and oranges my friend. of course if we are presenting poisonous prey that may be different like offering a monarch butterfly for a snack. but mice and birds aren't inherently poisonous.

So here's my spin/view on vertebrates for most carnivorous/omnivorous herps. It's completely going to depend on the size and nature and the normal diet of the herp. The smaller the herp the more likely it is to avoid areas with strong rodent/mammal smells and bird smells because adult rodents/mammal and birds can be predators too if you are small enough to be lunch...... They may luck into a meal or two every now and then but definitely never as a staple (unless birds and mice are their staple such as various snakes etc.). As a once a month thing to provide aminos/fatts etc that may not be normally available and to diversify diet I see no reason not to the smaller the herp the less often such foods should be offered. Remember the simple fact of science there are no toxic substances only toxic amounts.

Now as for feeding them to chameleons in general if Gout from overly fatty foods is common I would consider it risky to feed something like that more than once a month or every 2 months.

Just my thoughts.

It would be nice if there were some data on this subject.