Feeding large chameleons warm blooded prey

[Extensionofgreen]

I've never fed chameleons things like pinky mice or quail chicks, for various reasons. It is a reasonable supposition that large chams, like parsons and melleri, would encounter and consume hatchling birds, at least seasonally. I would think veileds and other African, sun loving species also find and consume small nestlings, such as finches, on occasion. I see few instances of captive chams being offered these items, so I thought I'd inquire as to who does or does not offer these prey items and why or why not?

In my case, I am entertaining the idea of offering hairless prey items, to the females, during breeding activity and while gravid. I feel that the extra calories, calcium, D3, and Vitamin A would be beneficial and likely very absorbable from actual prey, versus supplementation, though I supplement as well.
I think, if I did offer them, one pinky or chick every 2 weeks would be the maximum, as I doubt that chameleons consume large numbers of these items or are equipped to digest large amounts of even soft bones.
Possible concerns I've had with the idea are that feathered or haired prey may contribute to blockages, any but the newest of newborns may contain bones too calcified to be digested and cause problems, the prey itself may be a rather "rich" item and not the best for regular consumption, and I don't like feeding items that I haven't raised myself, on a known, nutritious diet.
I also feel that feeding these items is strictly optional, possibly of some use during specific times of a chameleon's life, but certainly not a requirement.
This a hypothetical discussion only and I'm interested to hear from keepers of larger chameleon species, in particular.

 

[Andee]

Pinkies have no really added calcium unless they were just recently nursing. All their bones are pretty much cartilage at the time they are born. So they offer no added calcium from their bones, plus they are extremely fatty. Offering animal protein every two weeks could easily result in gout.

 

[Extensionofgreen]

I would disagree that a pinky mouse wouldn't provide calcium. That cartilage is soft, digestible, calcium. Cartilage, in this instance, is bone that hasn't fully mineralized. Pinky mice being full of fat is old school, perpetuated myth. There are several comparison sheets of feeder items that can be found that illustrate this.
As far as offering animal protein every two weeks causing gout, I agree that this could be a problem, long term, but is you consider a 24-30" chameleon having one pinky, every 2 weeks, during gestation, you are not going to risk gout, IMO. You would adjust your supplementation and feeding of other items accordingly.
I'm not stating that I am planning to feed pinky mice or that one should, but I think it is a viable, safe possibility, and I am interested in the opinions of people that have fed these sorts of items or who absolutely will not and their reasoning behind their choice. Most people who don't feed animal prey feel the way you do, based on the perpetuation that pinky mice or abnormally high in fat and fear gout, if fed too often.

 

[Extensionofgreen]

I dug up the partial nutritional content of a pinky mouse, after the above post.

• Pinky:12% crude protein, 4.72% crude fat, 0.2% crude fiber, 80% moisture

 

[KLowery88]

So far the argument I've seen for feeding mammal or bird prey has been as a way to give a natural source of vitamin A, and then it was only fed once a month.

I can't see a pinky being any harder for a chameleon to eat than a large hornworm. I think I remember seeing a thread on this forum about a member's adult female Veiled catching and eating a hummingbird while outside with no ill effects.

Hopefully some more experienced members will have answers for you. I'm curious about the topic as well.

 

[Virgil1972]

I would think that large wild chams would eat a small baby bird if they happened upon a nest.

 

[Andee]

I would disagree that a pinky mouse wouldn't provide calcium. That cartilage is soft, digestible, calcium. Cartilage, in this instance, is bone that hasn't fully mineralized. Pinky mice being full of fat is old school, perpetuated myth. There are several comparison sheets of feeder items that can be found that illustrate this.
As far as offering animal protein every two weeks causing gout, I agree that this could be a problem, long term, but is you consider a 24-30" chameleon having one pinky, every 2 weeks, during gestation, you are not going to risk gout, IMO. You would adjust your supplementation and feeding of other items accordingly.
I'm not stating that I am planning to feed pinky mice or that one should, but I think it is a viable, safe possibility, and I am interested in the opinions of people that have fed these sorts of items or who absolutely will not and their reasoning behind their choice. Most people who don't feed animal prey feel the way you do, based on the perpetuation that pinky mice or abnormally high in fat and fear gout, if fed too often.

I can understand your point with the fat. I still am not swayed on the gout. I believe they would be a good source of Vitamin A however. And am far from swayed on the calcium front, pinky mice are regularly dusted by snaked keepers with calcium powder because they are low in calcium and can cause skeletal disorders if your snake eats only that. Would you feed frozen? Or live?

 

[Extensionofgreen]

Snake keepers need to dust pinky mice, because snakes eat whole prey, including adult prey, that have fully mineralized bone. Since pinky mice don't have fully calcified bones, the snakes are not getting the amounts of calcium they would, if they were living in the wild, consuming adult prey and other vertebrates, such as amphibians.
For a chameleon, the cartilage would be more calcium in one pinky is likely more than several insects and would be released nor slowly, since it would digest more slowly, than insect bodies.
If I fed animal prey, I would choose live prey and probably utilize a known source of quail chicks, over mice. I'd want to know what the animals were fed on, before I'd feed them to my chameleon. I doubt I will feed these types of prey, for that reason, though I do know some local breeders of quail, dove, and other fowl.

 

[Andee]

If you are going to feed animal prey then definitely feed live but prekilled. Because frozen has hardly any nutrients. I can see your point on the pinkies though ^^

 

[brownie64]

I wouldn't feed mice, or birds because I don't feel it would be necessary. Why bring in another bunch of factors to worry about? However if I did it would most likely have to be alive and moving, or my cham wouldn't eat it. At least that's always been my experience with insects.

 

[alphakenc]

I wouldn't feed the warm blood menu cause how often this occurs in the wild??
Plus you will have to gutload the FINE CHAMELEON NUTRITION needs for these prey which it will be VERY hard to feed the vegetables to a pinky mice or birds.

 

[DanSB]

I would fully expect that in the wild chameleons are going to eat anything that moves and will fit in their mouth. I would also fully expect that small birds, lizards, frogs, rodents, etc... make up a portion of the wild diet in any bigger species. I am of the opinion that the more different feeder items you can provide the better off you will be and if you can include the occasional hatching quail, lizard, pinky mouse etc all the better.

I want to emphasize I don't have any scientific backing for anything I'm saying but sometimes new things need to be tried.

I do know that people feed quail chicks and mice to chameleons I just couldn't find any of the supporting threads from the past on here I know I've seen. I don't know about long term health results from doing so. I suspect gout would not be a problem though as that seems to come from over dusting with vitamins that are hard to metabolize not from living vitamins...

 

[JoeVet]

We know from studies from wild caught Jackson's in Hawaii that Jackson's will eat other reptiles. I would think they would eat small mammals if they can catch them. That said I don't think pinkies are good food for chameleons. As previously said they are high in fat and low in calcium. Cartilage is basically bone without the calcium. They are a good source of vitamin A. If they are to be fed I wouldn't recommend feeding more than 2 times a year and mainly to females which could use the vitamin A. They shouldn't be a consistent part of their diet.

 

[alphakenc]

The question is how suitable the prey for the chams,I havnt see any documentary video for a chameleon eating live bird n mice,especially when the parents birds are on guard with their youngs,if there will be any proof that,these warm blooded mice n bird are a great nutrition for the captivity bred chams,Then why not have a feeder sponsors selling these prey instead of just the insects....SO FAR I haven't see any sponsors in this forum selling mice n birds for the chameleon food....so what is that telling us!!

 

[DanSB]

The question is how suitable the prey for the chams,I havnt see any documentary video for a chameleon eating live bird n mice,especially when the parents birds are on guard with their youngs,if there will be any proof that,these warm blooded mice n bird are a great nutrition for the captivity bred chams,Then why not have a feeder sponsors selling these prey instead of just the insects....SO FAR I haven't see any sponsors in this forum selling mice n birds for the chameleon food....so what is that telling us!!

I haven't seen a stomach content analysis on any statistically relevant number of Mellers, Ousties, Parsons or any other even moderately large species from the wild, have you? Has anyone here? Has anyone anywhere? I suspect the answer is no but I could be wrong.

If we wanted to know someone who keeps a larger species would have to try!

Also the site sponsors are just businesses that want to sell us items we will pay more for than they paid for them. So the fact they aren't selling quail hatch lings tells me they can't make a profit selling them to us.

 

[alphakenc]

So should everyone start feeding their precious cham with mice n birds??
Can any chameleon specialist vet approve these diet for our chameleons???
Also how would you gutloaded the mice and birds with the proper nutrition???
The reason the sponsors wouldn't make a profit is majority of the forum members dont think is a good idea to feed the cham with mice n birds ,cause there are lots health reasons behind it,and no one will buy it.
Im sure there are lots more chameleon. health reason for bad rather than good by doing more research on the same topic from the past in this forum just awaiting for you to look at it and proof them all wrong.

 

[Extensionofgreen]

The reasons they wouldn't make a profit is because there are already plenty of distributers for mice, rats, chicks, and the like. Gut loading is to make up for and enhance an apparent of perceived deficit in a feeder insects diet. Feeders that are fed on their natural diets are complete and don't require gut loading. In the case of chicks, the could easily be gut loaded, if that was desired. No one has advocated feeding, without careful consideration, animal prey. We are discussing possible merits and shortcomings and trying to support that with facts, rather than anecdotal, emotional, outdated, and not thoroughly investigated opinions.

 

[alphakenc]

Until you finish all your investgation,I will still believe feeding cham in the feeder insect , I will not use my own cham to feed them mice n birds due to all the prior chameleon keepers experience in this forum...unless you want to fatten your cham with biweekly mice n bird diet,why not feed a baby garter snake to your cham also....they will go down much easier in their throat rather chewing on their claw n feet!!

 

[DanSB]

So should everyone start feeding their precious cham with mice n birds??
Can any chameleon specialist vet approve these diet for our chameleons???
Also how would you gutloaded the mice and birds with the proper nutrition???
The reason the sponsors wouldn't make a profit is majority of the forum members dont think is a good idea to feed the cham with mice n birds ,cause there are lots health reasons behind it,and no one will buy it.
Im sure there are lots more chameleon. health reason for bad rather than good by doing more research on the same topic from the past in this forum just awaiting for you to look at it and proof them all wrong.

Everything Extensionofgreen said directly after this post applies and I agree.

Also please don't take a healthy curiosity and an acknowledgment that we really don't know as an invitation for everyone to run out and get mice and birds. I remember feeding full grown captive Jackson females pinkies back in the early 90s. They bred, had babies, and lived a good 4 -5 years. Was this good for them? I don't really know. I wasn't actually keeping them or watching them closely nor did I run any experiments to see if they were better off than animals that didn't get pinkies once a month.

So no, not everyone should run out and feed their chameleons (precious or otherwise) birds and mice. What experienced and skilled keepers could do is try and see if they notice any improvements / detriments on overall health. I would of course be very careful about where the feeders are sourced, how they are fed, etc etc there are a ton of variables! So no, I absolutely do not recommend that some kid who thinks it would be cool to feed their monster a bird go out and do it. That stuff irritates me. I don't even feed my Pixie frog mice because I'm not breeding them nor do I think it is necessary for a long life. But many people think it is. While on the subject NOBODY sells earthworms as feeders and they are about the best possible feeder for Pacman and Pixie frogs; the reason? You can buy them at Walmart for cheap.

If you could find cheap parasite free lizards and frogs I think those would make great feeders as well. And honestly I think that birds, frogs, and lizards would be the best chameleon feeders that aren't currently used. Lizards aren't used because feeder geckos / anoles are full of parasites.

 

[alphakenc]

That sounds little bit better....so how easy is to breed a baby bird than a dubia roaches....space n time consuming??what is the ultimate goal for this warm blood feeder project???
How will you guys make me a believer with this untraditional biweekly warm blood diet.... try sell it to me .