Feeding large chameleons warm blooded prey

You havnt answer my question about the breeding time consuming parts?is it really worth it to sacrifice a new born baby bird Just to make the chams in the higher food chain??what about the birdlover activist,how would u explain all this to them???
 
alphakenc said:
You havnt answer my question about the breeding time consuming parts?is it really worth it to sacrifice a new born baby bird Just to make the chams in the higher food chain??what about the birdlover activist,how would u explain all this to them???
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If by you you mean me I happen to love birds, I don't advocate any type of cruelty and it frankly turns my stomach when someone feeds exotic prey just because they think it is neat. With that said there are most definitely gaps in our understanding and captive husbandry of Chameleons especially in larger species like Mellers and Parsons but also in Panthers and Veiled where we have seen the most success in Captive propagation. I just saw a thread today commenting about how wild panthers have a definite different and healthier look than captive born. This is clearly environmental and diet has to be a big place to look for that lacking.

Contrary to popular belief veterinary science is not really able to take an animal apart and tell us what the ideal food source is. Our medical doctors can't even give us our own ideal nutrition how could a vet give us ideal nutrition for an animal that has barely been studied? As people who love chamelelons and have an interest in breeding and captive propagation we need to try new things from time to time.

If birds provide something that insects don't as far as vitamins and minerals that chameleons need for ideal growth and health we really wouldn't know because the only people who regularly feed quail don't talk about it.
 
Those are the stomach contents of smaller species, incapable of eating chicks.

As for the cruelty argument:
What about insect lovers? Explain feeding insects to our chams. If I thought there was good reason to source and feed quail to my chameleons, I'd do so without any guilt. I don't delight in seeing animals, vertebrate or invertebrate, suffer or die needlessly, but feeding appropriate food items to captive animals is neither cruel nor needless. You still seem to be under the impression we are arguing to have people feed vertebrates and we are not. We are simply speculating based on the limited information we have about wild chameleons and learned discussion.
 
I believe those wild chams in Madagascar are eating all type of insects,and those insects do carry bacteria n parasite in the wild,and that makes the wild cham adopt into a better resistance than the captivity bred chams.
Human eats cow n drink cow milk for ages,"IF" the scientists discover by eating a lions ball will live a longer life,Im sure it will be a trophy hunting craze for the lion ball,but the general public will not tolerate any lion killing..
Samething with a quail baby bird...why bother take a long time to breed them then kill them as soon as they born???(and you are a bird lover right)
Thats why there are supplements for us to dust on the insects,why change the food chain if there are other factors to be considered....since we already took them out from the wild,and now we have to kill another life just to satisfy our needs for them? Life is too short to be destroyed too quickly!!
 
So insects are not a live and have less value than a bird, also being raised for human consumption? This is an emotional argument, not a factual one.
 
To me this is far from an argument,its the fact of the food chain in life ,and Im having fun to discuss with it....Im very happy to express my feeling and so should you n Dan.
 
I'm just not interested in debating ethics. It's not that I mind the dicussion. I'm looking for nutritional or behavioral validity or the lack of it, to larger chameleons consuming vertebrates. All other discussion is opinion and everyone has one.
 
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alphakenc said:
I believe those wild chams in Madagascar are eating all type of insects,and those insects do carry bacteria n parasite in the wild,and that makes the wild cham adopt into a better resistance than the captivity bred chams.
Human eats cow n drink cow milk for ages,"IF" the scientists discover by eating a lions ball will live a longer life,Im sure it will be a trophy hunting craze for the lion ball,but the general public will not tolerate any lion killing..
Samething with a quail baby bird...why bother take a long time to breed them then kill them as soon as they born???(and you are a bird lover right)
Thats why there are supplements for us to dust on the insects,why change the food chain if there are other factors to be considered....since we already took them out from the wild,and now we have to kill another life just to satisfy our needs for them? Life is too short to be destroyed too quickly!!
Click to expand...

If I am being picked on I have to respond and I will only respond to that particular part, the rest is either too silly or would entail me rewording what I have already said.

I eat chicken, turkey, and eggs. They are good for me. I still love birds.
 
I think this thread began with the intentions of discussing the nutritional content of vertebrates vs. invertebrates. I am with @Extensionofgreen of this one. Somewhere it got turned from being about the science behind the topic to the emotional and ethical side of the topic. I think that turn is not doing the thread any real justice.

I think that you have to be logical when thinking about things like this. When discussing wild animals, we must remember that they are opportunistic feeders. I don't believe that a large chameleon, like a melleri for example, would pass up a hatchling bird, lizard, etc. My melleri get fed an abundance of food. But, I can't tell you how many times that when I'm outside feeding them, even if it's their favorite food, that they will pass it up to chase down a green anole. I have them all over the place at my house. I have never caught one and offered it to my chams intentionally, but I also can't stop them all the time before they get it. So, even though they are now in a captive situation...they still have that opportunistic drive when it comes to feeding. I have learned a lot from keeping melleri because all I own are WC specimens. Common sense points to the fact that prey is seasonal and an animal must have a wide and varied diet to survive year round.
 
And Im here to support alphakenc myself n thousands insects feeders in this forum community .
Like I said , if you want to feed ur cham pinky mice n bird biweekly,do as u please,cause alphakenc will never sacrifice a bird or pinky mice just to doing a research for a captivity bred of the cham.
Here is some suggestions,maybe put thousands quail birds n million mice in the Madagascar,just to see if that makes difference on ur project,BUT I will never ever try to change the food chain source,who knows the bird n mice will start eating the chams in return.
 
jpowell86 said:
I think this thread began with the intentions of discussing the nutritional content of vertebrates vs. invertebrates. I am with @Extensionofgreen of this one. Somewhere it got turned from being about the science behind the topic to the emotional and ethical side of the topic. I think that turn is not doing the thread any real justice.

I think that you have to be logical when thinking about things like this. When discussing wild animals, we must remember that they are opportunistic feeders. I don't believe that a large chameleon, like a melleri for example, would pass up a hatchling bird, lizard, etc. My melleri get fed an abundance of food. But, I can't tell you how many times that when I'm outside feeding them, even if it's their favorite food, that they will pass it up to chase down a green anole. I have them all over the place at my house. I have never caught one and offered it to my chams intentionally, but I also can't stop them all the time before they get it. So, even though they are now in a captive situation...they still have that opportunistic drive when it comes to feeding. I have learned a lot from keeping melleri because all I own are WC specimens. Common sense points to the fact that prey is seasonal and an animal must have a wide and varied diet to survive year round.
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Bingo.
 
alphakenc said:
And Im here to support alphakenc myself n thousands insects feeders in this forum community .
Like I said , if you want to feed ur cham pinky mice n bird biweekly,do as u please,cause alphakenc will never sacrifice a bird or pinky mice just to doing a research for a captivity bred of the cham.
Here is some suggestions,maybe put thousands quail birds n million mice in the Madagascar,just to see if that makes difference on ur project,BUT I will never ever try to change the food chain source,who knows the bird n mice will start eating the chams in return.
Click to expand...

This is purely emotional I agree. I love insects, there are some insects I keep just for the sake of keeping them. Not for raising them as feeders. Yet I still feed insects to my chameleons. I realize that chameleons are eaters of insects, but like said before, opportunistic feeders. I agree feeding the animal protein with the Vitamin A defficient feeders we raise, would be helpful. But I think that it would need to be limited to twice-three times a year. Otherwise there is too much of a possibility of gout, even in large chameleons. Even with that amount in their system though I think the vitamin A build up would be enough.
 
Extensionofgreen said:
I think, if I did offer them, one pinky or chick every 2 weeks would be the maximum, as I doubt that chameleons consume large numbers of these items or are equipped to digest large amounts of even soft bones.
Click to expand...
Here is the question that makes me wonder???if u can explain the nutritional values behind this,why every 2weeks with the pinky ??
 
kinyonga said:
Seasonal, opportunistic and even selective...
https://www.researchgate.net/public..._Senegalese_Chameleons_Chamaeleo_senegalensis
Click to expand...

Why can you never summarize? :)

Either way how is this relevant to the conversation? Since you didn't say I will guess it has to do with a preference for chameleons to naturally seek variety in their food. I have observed this in Senegal chameleons as well. Does it extend to larger chameleons, and would it extend to vertebrate species as prey?

My only real point in this whole debacle is just this: that chameleons need more variety than we provide them and for larger species this could very well extend to vertebrates.
 
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