Eyes suken in

[KamaKamaChameleon!]

Plus, would I just mist in the morning?

 

[Beman]

Ok, from what I understand from reading the uvb module, I can rest a ZooMed T8 5.0 directly on the top screen with the basking branch about 6-7" below the top screen and that would be fine right?

Do you have t8 or a t5? These are very very different in their distance requirements. It should say on your bulb if you are not sure....
You could not do a t8 with a distance of 6-7 for a Veiled... You would have to do a 10.0 T8 to do a distance of 6-7inches with the fixture resting directly on the screen top This will produce a basking level of 2-3UVI.

 

[Beman]

Plus, would I just mist in the morning?

Read the modules.... https://chameleonacademy.com/chameleon-cage-set-up-naturalistic-hydration/

 

[KamaKamaChameleon!]

Do you have t8 or a t5? These are very very different in their distance requirements. It should say on your bulb if you are not sure....
You could not do a t8 with a distance of 6-7 for a Veiled... You would have to do a 10.0 T8 to do a distance of 6-7inches with the fixture resting directly on the screen top This will produce a basking level of 2-3UVI.

It says its T8, that means I couldnt just rest it directly on the screen top right? or did i read that wrong

 

[Beman]

It says its T8, that means I couldnt just rest it directly on the screen top right? or did i read that wrong

So if you have a T8 you would rest it directly on the top of the enclosure. You need to use a 10.0 bulb with it and you need to have the basking branches no higher then 6-7 inches.... You want to make sure you lift your heat fixture off the top of that enclosure though. With the height of his casque he could very easily suffer a thermal burn to the casque with your basking level being 6-7 inches down. So T8 with a 10.0 bulb basking branches 6-7 inches below and lift the basking fixture about 4 inches up and move your probe so it is on the branch directly below the heat fixture to get an accurate reading. Temps should be more like 85 max for him.

 

[KamaKamaChameleon!]

Tysm for the help. Sorry for all the questions but as shown, the basking kind of gradients to nothing how would you achieve that?

 

[Beman]

Tysm for the help. Sorry for all the questions but as shown, the basking kind of gradients to nothing how would you achieve that? View attachment 275938

Is this from the hydration page?
So he shows how he does it on this page. when you have what going on. Your gradients happen naturally in a cage when it is set up properly.... Most will set there cages up based on his model.

So this is one of my enclosures... left back side has my basking area... this creates a warmer pocket in that corner while the opposite side is cooler. The top half will be warmer but it will also be where the humidity pockets are reduced... As you move down toward the bottom into the plants this creates cooler gradients with areas of higher humidity. In my cages from the basking level down into the plants I get about a 10-15% difference in humidity. I am providing multiple areas for basking for the cham to choose where he wants to be. I am providing multiple gradients not only for heat but for humidity in the cage as well. This allows for when he goes down and tucks himself into his plants to be in areas of higher humidity at night when I am fogging and all lights are off..

Does this make sense?

 

[KamaKamaChameleon!]

Is this from the hydration page?
So he shows how he does it on this page. when you have what going on. Your gradients happen naturally in a cage when it is set up properly.... Most will set there cages up based on his model.

So this is one of my enclosures... left back side has my basking area... this creates a warmer pocket in that corner while the opposite side is cooler. The top half will be warmer but it will also be where the humidity pockets are reduced... As you move down toward the bottom into the plants this creates cooler gradients with areas of higher humidity. In my cages from the basking level down into the plants I get about a 10-15% difference in humidity. I am providing multiple areas for basking for the cham to choose where he wants to be. I am providing multiple gradients not only for heat but for humidity in the cage as well. This allows for when he goes down and tucks himself into his plants to be in areas of higher humidity at night when I am fogging and all lights are off..

Does this make sense?

View attachment 275943

Yeah that made sense ty! Tomorrow were rearranging the enclosure so he feels more safe while were waiting for the new cage to come. Do you think he'll be fine until then?

 

[Beman]

Yeah that made sense ty! Tomorrow were rearranging the enclosure so he feels more safe while were waiting for the new cage to come. Do you think he'll be fine until then?

I would watch his breathing... Listen closely for wheezing... I am a bit concerned about the potential for an RI here. And there is no way to know for sure unless he starts exhibiting the tell tell signs or he goes to a vet for them to listen to his breathing.

Keep reading that husbandry program...

 

[KamaKamaChameleon!]

I would watch his breathing... Listen closely for wheezing... I am a bit concerned about the potential for an RI here. And there is no way to know for sure unless he starts exhibiting the tell tell signs or he goes to a vet for them to listen to his breathing.

Keep reading that husbandry program...

?if case comes to worse are there any herp vets in southern utah? i know we have vets but i dont know if we have herp vets

 

[PetNcs]

@KamaKamaChameleon! See my feedback in red bold.


Sunken eyes do not just mean dehydration. Could be stress related as well.

Can you take a picture of the entire enclosure lights down and please provide additional pictures of the entire chameleon. Your pic is very hard to see.

Chameleon Info:

• Your Chameleon - Veiled, male, 3 years-ish. About 3 years, maybe more maybe less.
• Handling - At least once a week
• Feeding - Hornworms, silkworms, BSFL, and crickets. I feed him every other day and then skip the weekend. I feed him about 5-7 total. I gut load my feeders with carrots. Carrots is not an adequate gutload. See image for veg variety or get a commercial gutload like repashy bug burger if you do not want to do multiple greens.
• Supplements - Rep-cal calcium no d3 I dust his feeders with every feeding but once a week I dust his feeders with either reptivite vitamin with d3 or repti calcium with d3 (i switch between the two each week) If your reptivite has D3 you are giving too much calcium with d3. If it does have this then you need to drop the repticalcium with d3 and only use the Reptivite with D3 every other week so that it is only 2 times a month. D3 is fat soluble and stores in the tissues when you over supplement with it this can lead to D3 toxicity.
• Watering - I spray the cage 4 times a day for at least 5 minutes, I also have a dripper running 24/7. At night I have a mister that goes on. I have not caught him drinking because he always stops when I walk into the room. This is a bit excessive for misting.... Cage should be able to dry out during the day. Also misting during the day when the cage is hot increases risk for them to develop an RI.
• Fecal Description - Darkish-brown with a yellow-white urate. Solid enough that it can stay together. He has not been tested for parasites. this is always a good idea IMO as most parasites can not be seen. Usually by the time the cham succumbs to them they are quite ill.
• History - Any previous information about your cham that might be useful to others when trying to help you. I got him from a local pet store that takes really good care of all their animals.

Cage Info:

• Cage Type - 18x18x36, we are ordering a 24x24x48 right now, so he won't be in there for long. Mesh. good because the smaller cage for an adult will cause stress.
• Lighting - For my heat lamp I have a ZooMed basking lamp 75w and a ZooMed 10.0 UVB long bulb. I turn the lights on at 8:45 and turn them off at 9:00 what is your distance to basking below the UVB? A 10.0 if it is a single bulb T5 fixture is a very strong bulb and should only be used if you can provide a 12 inch distance. When last did you replace your UVB bulb?
• Temperature - At the basking spot it's about 86 f (highest it hits is 90) and at the bottom of the cage is about 60-70 f. I measure with a thermometer. The lowest it hits at night is 60 f. 90 is quite high... It should be at the very max 85.
• Humidity - 50-70%, I do regular misting to maintain it. At night I have a mister that goes on all night. Humidity gauge. This is too high during the day should be 30-50% max during the day. see info above on your mistings as well. When you say you have a mister that goes on all night what do you mean by this? A fogger or are you actually spraying the cage all night?
• Plants - I do use live plants, also one fake plant. The live plants I have in there is a pothos and a yucca. You should not be using fake plants as they are an impaction risk. Plants used should be from this link and veiled tested only since they eat their plants. https://chameleonacademy.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/12/Chameleon-Plants-122819.pdf
• Placement - My cage is located in my room, it's near a fan but I barley even turn it on.
• Location - Southern Utah.

View attachment 275904

I apologize thag I will. Ot be too positive but ai guess a new ie needs a correcg information and rhe comments are not flawless.

1. the vutloading asvice is an ansilute nonsense. It is baded on NOTHING no science, no evidence, just imagination of the authors and nothingelse. Such gjtloading absokutely makes. O sense as ithas nothing in common with natiral vutloading nekther with the real nutrition needs if the chameleon, as they are not capable of digesting such food - so, to ask a new ie to perform such gutloading is a nonsense that helps nothing

2. the red comments on D3 toxicity sre exGerrated and incorrect. The supplěentation routine of the OP is a solutely correct and needs just to be enhanced by daily pollen, which was not mentioned

3. Correct notes on how much misting were not corrected with recommendation of using night fogging

4. recommendation of doing fecalnis pointless

I would expect if corrective measures sre recommended that they are flawless and correct and not pronlematic andnincomplet

 

[DocZ]

I apologize thag I will. Ot be too positive but ai guess a new ie needs a correcg information and rhe comments are not flawless.

1. the vutloading asvice is an ansilute nonsense. It is baded on NOTHING no science, no evidence, just imagination of the authors and nothingelse. Such gjtloading absokutely makes. O sense as ithas nothing in common with natiral vutloading nekther with the real nutrition needs if the chameleon, as they are not capable of digesting such food - so, to ask a new ie to perform such gutloading is a nonsense that helps nothing

2. the red comments on D3 toxicity sre exGerrated and incorrect. The supplěentation routine of the OP is a solutely correct and needs just to be enhanced by daily pollen, which was not mentioned

3. Correct notes on how much misting were not corrected with recommendation of using night fogging

4. recommendation of doing fecalnis pointless

I would expect if corrective measures sre recommended that they are flawless and correct and not pronlematic andnincomplet

@PetNcs I’ve never heard your thoughts on Gut loading insects, and I would love to hear your opinion.
It’s seems that minerals and vitamins added into gut loads will increase the values of those nutrients within the feeder insects according to Finke 2003
https://www.researchgate.net/public..._as_food_for_reptiles_A_mathematical_approach


Wouldn’t it follow that using mineral and nutrient rich foods for the feeders such as those suggested by @Beman would create similar results?

D3 supplementation with proper UVB exposure is still a fuzzy area for me. Too much Oral D3 is poorly tolerated, and with good lighting, most, if not all D3 necessary for proper calcium absorption and cycling should occur

 

[PetNcs]

@PetNcs I’ve never heard your thoughts on Gut loading insects, and I would love to hear your opinion.
It’s seems that minerals and vitamins added into gut loads will increase the values of those nutrients within the feeder insects according to Finke 2003
https://www.researchgate.net/public..._as_food_for_reptiles_A_mathematical_approach


Wouldn’t it follow that using mineral and nutrient rich foods for the feeders such as those suggested by @Beman would create similar results?

D3 supplementation with proper UVB exposure is still a fuzzy area for me. Too much Oral D3 is poorly tolerated, and with good lighting, most, if not all D3 necessary for proper calcium absorption and cycling should occur

I have presented my a bit black and white view on gutloading many times.
I do not like the hystery and lack of science science and logic behind.
My view is:


feeders should be fed properly si that their bodies sre nutritious
Gjtloading should not contsin undigestable psrts flrmchsmrlrins as if rhe can not the plant matter, the gutloading is just unnecessary waste as they csn not extract hutrients from it or very likired way only
Guloading should be done either naturally (pollen eg) or in a form that allows the chameleon to digest it

some reading

GUTLOADING IS A BULLSHIT

I am sorry for the provocative title. Gutloading is a fashion with no base.
Most ingredients you find in virally spread recipes are unnatural, absolutely nonsensous, non-digestible for chameleons and even harmful.
The normal gut load of typical chameleon food is pollen, nectar (in the guts of pollinators) or grass resp. leaves (in the case of orthopterans and diverse caterpillars) but not in a variety of them but monodietary - as they are as a rule specialists and/or deed on one spot before being eaten.

The rule of thumb is:
1. Feed your feeders proper natural diet so that they build strong, well built and nutritious bodies
2. Gutload with pollen

https://www.chameleons.info/l/the-sweet-sour-story-of-the-gut-loading/

 

[TimothyOnTop]

I appreciate the feedback! Ill work on fixing the humidity and temperature and etc. Sorry for not adding in some of the things the first time, I have cut back on his feeding so its normal now though. But sometimes my brain just gets foggy and 2020 just had been just a crazy year. I'll get some photos in a sec.

Please rehome any animals in your care immediately

 

[Chameleomom]

Please rehome any animals in your care immediately

TimothyOnTop there is NO need talking to another member like that...she is here and asking for help.

 

[AmandaS]

View attachment 275914View attachment 275915View attachment 275916View attachment 275917

I just want to say his casque is very impressive!

 

[DocZ]

I have presented my a bit black and white view on gutloading many times.
I do not like the hystery and lack of science science and logic behind.
My view is:


feeders should be fed properly si that their bodies sre nutritious
Gjtloading should not contsin undigestable psrts flrmchsmrlrins as if rhe can not the plant matter, the gutloading is just unnecessary waste as they csn not extract hutrients from it or very likired way only
Guloading should be done either naturally (pollen eg) or in a form that allows the chameleon to digest it

some reading

GUTLOADING IS A BULLSHIT

I am sorry for the provocative title. Gutloading is a fashion with no base.
Most ingredients you find in virally spread recipes are unnatural, absolutely nonsensous, non-digestible for chameleons and even harmful.
The normal gut load of typical chameleon food is pollen, nectar (in the guts of pollinators) or grass resp. leaves (in the case of orthopterans and diverse caterpillars) but not in a variety of them but monodietary - as they are as a rule specialists and/or deed on one spot before being eaten.

The rule of thumb is:
1. Feed your feeders proper natural diet so that they build strong, well built and nutritious bodies
2. Gutload with pollen

https://www.chameleons.info/l/the-sweet-sour-story-of-the-gut-loading/

Thanks. That’s a very logical conclusion regarding the homemade gut loads

you mentioned “Or is the whole story of gutloading actually irrelevant or of minute importance and important is, to feed the feeders properly so that they become nutritionally valuable themselves? That seems to be close to true. But then gut-loading is really not as important...” I think this is where recommendations given earlier come in. The recommended fruits and vegetables are full of highly bioavailable nutrition. Most have good Calcium to phosphorus ratios, lack high oxalates that could effect Calcium absorption, and do not have high goitrogens that effect thyroid hormone production.

I was a little confused why it is called “gut-loading” at first. I agree that the bioavailability of the gut contents in an insect (mostly fruits and vegetables) seemed likely to be quite low to an insectivore

I view the recommended vegetables and plants as insect food. If the insect eats A nutritious, bioavailable diet, it’s tissues will have maximum nutritional content. I don’t care much about what they’re carrying around in their gut. Although it may be the initial digestive process in the gut of the insect has increased the digestibility for the chameleon as well

 

[Beman]

I apologize thag I will. Ot be too positive but ai guess a new ie needs a correcg information and rhe comments are not flawless.

1. the vutloading asvice is an ansilute nonsense. It is baded on NOTHING no science, no evidence, just imagination of the authors and nothingelse. Such gjtloading absokutely makes. O sense as ithas nothing in common with natiral vutloading nekther with the real nutrition needs if the chameleon, as they are not capable of digesting such food - so, to ask a new ie to perform such gutloading is a nonsense that helps nothing

2. the red comments on D3 toxicity sre exGerrated and incorrect. The supplěentation routine of the OP is a solutely correct and needs just to be enhanced by daily pollen, which was not mentioned

3. Correct notes on how much misting were not corrected with recommendation of using night fogging

4. recommendation of doing fecalnis pointless

I would expect if corrective measures sre recommended that they are flawless and correct and not pronlematic andnincomplet

1. Since 99% of the recommended info is to gutload feeders then that is what I recommend. You are the first leader in the hobby that I have heard say anything against this.

2. So you are recommending giving Calcium with D3 every week? Because that is what they are doing with their supplement rotation. You would be the only person I have ever heard to recommend this.

3. I gave them complete links to read and learn about the natural hydration cycle. I even showed them an image of my cage explaining it because they did not understand the gradients. I can not teach every aspect of care but only try to point them to places like the Chameleon academy by Bill Strand so that they can learn full details.

4. I did not say go get a fecal I said it is a good idea....

So now that you have slammed my feedback to the original poster how is this helpful? You did not assist with what to look for if the cham does have an RI. You did not do anything but tell me how wrong I was.... I would love to know how this helps?

Honestly the last thread you came in on and slammed the OP and the information they provided for review made them not return to the forum. They stopped posting. How does this allow us to help them if they feel that they can't post because someone was extremely harsh with them. In the USA petstores sell chameleons and they are known for giving out the wrong information. So when people find us they are doing things incorrectly so we GENTLY provide feedback and explain that they were told to buy the wrong items and how to fix it. We do not take a harsh hard approach with people here because then they leave and then the chameleon is the one that pays for it when it dies.

 

[kinyonga]

“Or is the whole story of gutloading actually irrelevant or of minute importance and important is, to feed the feeders properly so that they become nutritionally valuable themselves?" I agree that making the insects as nutritionally healthy/valuable themselves is whats important....but don't we have to also try to ensure that the chameleons get the nutrition that they lack because what we feed them is not what they get in the wild?

DocZ said..."I view the recommended vegetables and plants as insect food. If the insect eats A nutritious, bioavailable diet, it’s tissues will have maximum nutritional content. I don’t care much about what they’re carrying around in their gut. Although it may be the initial digestive process in the gut of the insect has increased the digestibility for the chameleon as well"...I'm wondering about the initial process in the insect gut too.

 

[NashansCamos]

I just want to say his casque is very impressive!

I was going to say the same!