Eyes suken in

KamaKamaChameleon!

KamaKamaChameleon!

Avid Member
So I need advice. My chameleon's eyes seem to be sunken in. I'm aware that sunken-in eyes normally mean dehydration but I've been misting regularly and I have a dripper going on throughout the day.


Chameleon Info:
  • Your Chameleon - Veiled, male, 3 years-ish. About 3 years, maybe more maybe less.
  • Handling - At least once a week
  • Feeding - Hornworms, silkworms, BSFL, and crickets. I feed him every other day and then skip the weekend. I feed him about 5-7 total. I gut load my feeders with carrots.
  • Supplements - Rep-cal calcium no d3 I dust his feeders with every feeding but once a week I dust his feeders with either reptivite vitamin with d3 or repti calcium with d3 (i switch between the two each week)
  • Watering - I spray the cage 4 times a day for at least 5 minutes, I also have a dripper running 24/7. At night I have a mister that goes on. I have not caught him drinking because he always stops when I walk into the room.
  • Fecal Description - Darkish-brown with a yellow-white urate. Solid enough that it can stay together. He has not been tested for parasites.
  • History - Any previous information about your cham that might be useful to others when trying to help you. I got him from a local pet store that takes really good care of all their animals.

Cage Info:
  • Cage Type - 18x18x36, we are ordering a 24x24x48 right now, so he won't be in there for long. Mesh.
  • Lighting - For my heat lamp I have a ZooMed basking lamp 75w and a ZooMed 10.0 UVB long bulb. I turn the lights on at 8:45 and turn them off at 9:00
  • Temperature - At the basking spot it's about 86 f (highest it hits is 90) and at the bottom of the cage is about 60-70 f. I measure with a thermometer. The lowest it hits at night is 60 f.
  • Humidity - 50-70%, I do regular misting to maintain it. At night I have a mister that goes on all night. Humidity gauge.
  • Plants - I do use live plants, also one fake plant. The live plants I have in there is a pothos and a yucca.
  • Placement - My cage is located in my room, it's near a fan but I barley even turn it on.
  • Location - Southern Utah.

Current Problem - His eyes seem sunken in even though I've been watering him! He doesn't seem to have any other signs of dehydration besides that.
1598720396545.png
 
Sunken eyes do not just mean dehydration. Could be stress related as well.

Can you take a picture of the entire enclosure lights down while I look at your form?
 
@KamaKamaChameleon! See my feedback in red bold.


Sunken eyes do not just mean dehydration. Could be stress related as well.

Can you take a picture of the entire enclosure lights down and please provide additional pictures of the entire chameleon. Your pic is very hard to see.

Chameleon Info:

  • Your Chameleon - Veiled, male, 3 years-ish. About 3 years, maybe more maybe less.
  • Handling - At least once a week
  • Feeding - Hornworms, silkworms, BSFL, and crickets. I feed him every other day and then skip the weekend. I feed him about 5-7 total. I gut load my feeders with carrots. Carrots is not an adequate gutload. See image for veg variety or get a commercial gutload like repashy bug burger if you do not want to do multiple greens.
  • Supplements - Rep-cal calcium no d3 I dust his feeders with every feeding but once a week I dust his feeders with either reptivite vitamin with d3 or repti calcium with d3 (i switch between the two each week) If your reptivite has D3 you are giving too much calcium with d3. If it does have this then you need to drop the repticalcium with d3 and only use the Reptivite with D3 every other week so that it is only 2 times a month. D3 is fat soluble and stores in the tissues when you over supplement with it this can lead to D3 toxicity.
  • Watering - I spray the cage 4 times a day for at least 5 minutes, I also have a dripper running 24/7. At night I have a mister that goes on. I have not caught him drinking because he always stops when I walk into the room. This is a bit excessive for misting.... Cage should be able to dry out during the day. Also misting during the day when the cage is hot increases risk for them to develop an RI.
  • Fecal Description - Darkish-brown with a yellow-white urate. Solid enough that it can stay together. He has not been tested for parasites. this is always a good idea IMO as most parasites can not be seen. Usually by the time the cham succumbs to them they are quite ill.
  • History - Any previous information about your cham that might be useful to others when trying to help you. I got him from a local pet store that takes really good care of all their animals.

Cage Info:

  • Cage Type - 18x18x36, we are ordering a 24x24x48 right now, so he won't be in there for long. Mesh. good because the smaller cage for an adult will cause stress.
  • Lighting - For my heat lamp I have a ZooMed basking lamp 75w and a ZooMed 10.0 UVB long bulb. I turn the lights on at 8:45 and turn them off at 9:00 what is your distance to basking below the UVB? A 10.0 if it is a single bulb T5 fixture is a very strong bulb and should only be used if you can provide a 12 inch distance. When last did you replace your UVB bulb?
  • Temperature - At the basking spot it's about 86 f (highest it hits is 90) and at the bottom of the cage is about 60-70 f. I measure with a thermometer. The lowest it hits at night is 60 f. 90 is quite high... It should be at the very max 85.
  • Humidity - 50-70%, I do regular misting to maintain it. At night I have a mister that goes on all night. Humidity gauge. This is too high during the day should be 30-50% max during the day. see info above on your mistings as well. When you say you have a mister that goes on all night what do you mean by this? A fogger or are you actually spraying the cage all night?
  • Plants - I do use live plants, also one fake plant. The live plants I have in there is a pothos and a yucca. You should not be using fake plants as they are an impaction risk. Plants used should be from this link and veiled tested only since they eat their plants. https://chameleonacademy.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/12/Chameleon-Plants-122819.pdf
  • Placement - My cage is located in my room, it's near a fan but I barley even turn it on.
  • Location - Southern Utah.
chameleon-gutload.jpg
 
I gave your very thorough feedback on July 13th as well see link below. I am seeing that you have not corrected things you were told needed to be corrected then. These husbandry items can not be ignored or the chameleon suffers and in some cases dies. While you may not see a reason to correct things there are reasons. Hopefully you take my advice this time because your leaning toward it being dehydration and I in no way think it is after reading your passed posts and seeing that changes have not been made to critical aspects of husbandry.

https://www.chameleonforums.com/threads/help-not-eating.176481/post-1581694
 
I appreciate the feedback! Ill work on fixing the humidity and temperature and etc. Sorry for not adding in some of the things the first time, I have cut back on his feeding so its normal now though. But sometimes my brain just gets foggy and 2020 just had been just a crazy year. I'll get some photos in a sec.
 
Beman said:
Feeding - Hornworms, silkworms, BSFL, and crickets. I feed him every other day and then skip the weekend. I feed him about 5-7 total. I gut load my feeders with carrots. Carrots is not an adequate gutload. See image for veg variety or get a commercial gutload like repashy bug burger if you do not want to do multiple greens.
Click to expand...
I recently also got a 'cricket care' gutload but i'm not sure if I should use it, the ingredients in it are the following,

Organic Soybean Meal, Suncured Alfalfa Meal, Dried Lima Beans, Wheat Middlings, Rice Bran, Escarole, Endive, Calcium Carbonate, Monocalcium Phosphate, Dicalcium Phosphate, Dried Dandelion Greens, Sodium Bicarbonate, Dried Lactobacillus acidophilus Fermentation Product, Dried Lactobacillus casei Fermentation Product, Dried Bifidobacterium bifidum Fermentation Product, Dried Enterococcus faecium Fermentation Product, Hydrated Sodium Calcium Aluminosilicate, Brewers Dried Yeast, Yeast Culture, Yucca schidigera Extract, L-Ascorbyl-2-Polyphosphate (source of stabilized Vitamin C), Garlic Extract, Anise Extract, Chinese Cassia Extract, Ginger Extract, Horseradish, Juniper Extract, Vitamin E Supplement, Zinc Methionine Complex, Mixed Tocopherols (a preservative), Rosemary Extract (added flavor), Ascorbic Acid, Citric Acid (a preservative), Lecithin, Silicon Dioxide, Choline Chloride, Vitamin A Supplement, Vitamin D3 Supplement, Niacin Supplement, d-Calcium Pantothenate (source of Vitamin B5), Menadione Sodium Bisulfite Complex (source of Vitamin K activity), Riboflavin Supplement (source of Vitamin B2), Thiamine Mononitrate (source of Vitamin B1), Pyridoxine Hydrochloride (source of Vitamin B6), Biotin, Folic Acid, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Zinc Oxide, Manganous Oxide, Ferrous Sulfate, Copper Chloride, Calcium Iodate, Sodium Selenite.
 
Beman said:
  • Humidity - 50-70%, I do regular misting to maintain it. At night I have a mister that goes on all night. Humidity gauge. This is too high during the day should be 30-50% max during the day. see info above on your mistings as well. When you say you have a mister that goes on all night what do you mean by this? A fogger or are you actually spraying the cage all night?
Click to expand...
Oopsie worded that wrong ? its a fogger
 
KamaKamaChameleon! said:
I recently also got a 'cricket care' gutload but i'm not sure if I should use it, the ingredients in it are the following,

Organic Soybean Meal, Suncured Alfalfa Meal, Dried Lima Beans, Wheat Middlings, Rice Bran, Escarole, Endive, Calcium Carbonate, Monocalcium Phosphate, Dicalcium Phosphate, Dried Dandelion Greens, Sodium Bicarbonate, Dried Lactobacillus acidophilus Fermentation Product, Dried Lactobacillus casei Fermentation Product, Dried Bifidobacterium bifidum Fermentation Product, Dried Enterococcus faecium Fermentation Product, Hydrated Sodium Calcium Aluminosilicate, Brewers Dried Yeast, Yeast Culture, Yucca schidigera Extract, L-Ascorbyl-2-Polyphosphate (source of stabilized Vitamin C), Garlic Extract, Anise Extract, Chinese Cassia Extract, Ginger Extract, Horseradish, Juniper Extract, Vitamin E Supplement, Zinc Methionine Complex, Mixed Tocopherols (a preservative), Rosemary Extract (added flavor), Ascorbic Acid, Citric Acid (a preservative), Lecithin, Silicon Dioxide, Choline Chloride, Vitamin A Supplement, Vitamin D3 Supplement, Niacin Supplement, d-Calcium Pantothenate (source of Vitamin B5), Menadione Sodium Bisulfite Complex (source of Vitamin K activity), Riboflavin Supplement (source of Vitamin B2), Thiamine Mononitrate (source of Vitamin B1), Pyridoxine Hydrochloride (source of Vitamin B6), Biotin, Folic Acid, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Zinc Oxide, Manganous Oxide, Ferrous Sulfate, Copper Chloride, Calcium Iodate, Sodium Selenite.
Click to expand...
There are only a few commercial ones I like... Repashy makes bug burger and supperload both of these are ones you mix with hot water to create a gel that serves both as water and gutload... I would hesitate to use anything else that is a commercial gutload because I do not know enough about them.
 
KamaKamaChameleon! said:
Im also concerned because he seems to have extra saliva? I just noticed this
Click to expand...
This can be a sign of an RI. This is why having increased mistings when the heat lamp is on is a danger. Is he holding his nose up or gaping? Do you hear wheezing?

If you could please post pics of the entire cage and of the cham that would be helpful for me.
 
Beman said:
  • Lighting - For my heat lamp I have a ZooMed basking lamp 75w and a ZooMed 10.0 UVB long bulb. I turn the lights on at 8:45 and turn them off at 9:00 what is your distance to basking below the UVB? A 10.0 if it is a single bulb T5 fixture is a very strong bulb and should only be used if you can provide a 12 inch distance. When last did you replace your UVB bulb?
Click to expand...
Ah. Its almost about the time I replace but I was planning to when the cage came. I can also downgrade it to a 5.0 if that helps?
 
KamaKamaChameleon! said:
View attachment 275914View attachment 275915View attachment 275916View attachment 275917
Click to expand...
Ok so the cage is not set up correct at all. Chameleons do not like being low which is why we fill the top portion of their cage with plants and branches. He only has one branch to choose from. All the moisture is just sitting low. The temp probe should be on the basking branch directly below the heat fixture for an accurate reading.

I would start reading every module in this husbandry program before you start working on the new cage. The new cage has to be set up properly for him.
https://chameleonacademy.com/chameleon-husbandry-program-getting-started-with-chameleons/

His eyes look a little sunken in but this I am guessing is more from stress... could also be stress due to improper environment or stress due to illness if he has an RI started. That would require a vet visit if that is the case.

His weight looks better now as well.
 
Beman said:
Ok so the cage is not set up correct at all. Chameleons do not like being low which is why we fill the top portion of their cage with plants and branches. He only has one branch to choose from. All the moisture is just sitting low. The temp probe should be on the basking branch directly below the heat fixture for an accurate reading.

I would start reading every module in this husbandry program before you start working on the new cage. The new cage has to be set up properly for him.
https://chameleonacademy.com/chameleon-husbandry-program-getting-started-with-chameleons/

His eyes look a little sunken in but this I am guessing is more from stress... could also be stress due to improper environment or stress due to illness if he has an RI started. That would require a vet visit if that is the case.

His weight looks better now as well.
Click to expand...
Got it. Also from what I can hear he does not appear to be wheezing. Ive seen tip his nose up sometimes but like its not constant.
 
KamaKamaChameleon! said:
Got it. Also from what I can hear he does not appear to be wheezing. Ive seen tip his nose up sometimes but like its not constant.
Click to expand...
I am going to be really honest with you and this may sound very harsh... But you have been a member here longer then I have... Since February 2018. How can you still have him in a cage like this that is totally not set up correctly for him? We post every single day here about the proper set up and care. You should know better by now.

I suggest you make changes very quickly to his care so he can live the rest of his years at least in a correct enclosure. Start reading through that husbandry program as it will give you the exacts on how everything needs to be set up.

Per the potential for RI if he does have one they progress fast and often by the time the visible signs are there you risk it being too late. Here is more info on that. https://xjz.96f.myftpupload.com/chameleon-medical-respiratory-infection/
 
Beman said:
I am going to be really honest with you and this may sound very harsh... But you have been a member here longer then I have... Since February 2018. How can you still have him in a cage like this that is totally not set up correctly for him? We post every single day here about the proper set up and care. You should know better by now.

I suggest you make changes very quickly to his care so he can live the rest of his years at least in a correct enclosure. Start reading through that husbandry program as it will give you the exacts on how everything needs to be set up.

Per the potential for RI if he does have one they progress fast and often by the time the visible signs are there you risk it being too late. Here is more info on that. https://xjz.96f.myftpupload.com/chameleon-medical-respiratory-infection/
Click to expand...
I've actually had him in a nice 24x24x48 before but during moving it broke, so we had to resort to a 18x18x36. I actually learn from more harsh feedback, so thank you.
 
Ok, from what I understand from reading the uvb module, I can rest a ZooMed T8 5.0 directly on the top screen with the basking branch about 6-7" below the top screen and that would be fine right?
 
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