Eye problems with my Fischer's...

So I took my cham to a check up to a different Vet up here in Citrus Heights, "All About Pets." It was interesting how much more information I received from this vet than the last. She was a little odd, haha, but she seemed much more experienced with reptiles. The first thing she told me was that if the other vet had told me her calcium levels were a bit low. I said no since the other vets never mentioned this. The second thing was after she examined my cham, letting her walk around on her hand/arm, she said that another clue to the low calcium levels is that my cham has a very slight tremor when she goes to grasp something. I never noticed this or heard of this. I was wondering how can her levels be low when I have calcium supplement, and I have the correct lighting, plus I let her out for natural sunlight at least 3 times a week (when its not raining lately)...

...Anyway, she mentioned several things I found interesting. First she said my calcium supp with its D3 is fine. Next, she said most of the reptile lights UVB and UVA that are sold in stores, will only put out the uvb and uva for about 8 weeks, then it sorta dies out and youre left with just the light. Then she said to go along with that, the design of nearly all cham cages, with their mesh, screen, glass, etc, only allows for like 2% of those already weak uva and uvb waves to actually reach the chameleon. (WHAT? Then what the hell am I suppose to have her in?) Next she said most eye problems are caused from low calcium levels. She also said that my cham had dark areas on her crown which is probably from her sitting too high/too close to the lights and if I noticed her doing that. (My poor baby!!) I'll have to raise the lights up higher then.

So yea she talked on and on forever, which was nice cuz I'd rather her talk a lot then not at all. She said everything else seems to be fine, just need to up her calcium levels. She told me to keep giving her the eye drops, but also gave me "Neocalglucon Elixir" to put on her mouth for her to lick off to raise her calcium. She also gave me "Silvadene Creame 2%" to apply to the dark areas on her crown....I'm thinking it's like ointment for sunburns? And to check back in 3 weeks. She then preceded to baby talk and cuddle with my lil cham....hahahaha!

Oh, she also mentioned she's a personal friend, (and carer of pets) of Jeremy and Angel of "Upscale Reptiles" who put on the Sacramento Reptile Show. I'll have to go check out their store in Elk Grove.
 
Ummm-your Vet is a little off. We have many members here with UV meters, and these bulbs are often fine past 6-9 months. These members and other people have tested these bulbs throught the different kinds of mesh. It is also a proven fact that chams can be oversupplemented with D3, and Fischers seem to be supplement sensitive. Did she test the calcium levels? If not, she really cannot make a concrete statement. Eye problems are caused by a multitude of issues, not usually low calcium. Chams will "slightly tremor" while walking on purpose to avoid predation. How much did that mess of interesting advice cost? I really love my Vet.

Oh-and to make it clear-I am not bashing you, but slightly bashing this Vet. You are doing everything you can to help your little one out. Just making it clear for the lovely person that said I was bashing. :)
 
Hey Amber,

I have to agree with Julie on this one. It sounds like your vet knows far less about chameleons than she is claiming. Having not seen your chameleon personally, its hard to completely discount some of what she said but I definitely would like to see some more photos of her so I can give you my thoughts.

Regarding UVB bulbs, obviously it is going to depend on the type of bulb and every once in a while you may find a dud but the truth of the matter is most reptisun 5.0s seem to last well over the 6 month mark (I have a UVB meter and monitor my bulbs). We tend to recommend replacing them at 6 months if you don't have a meter because it is typically a safe time period to avoid UVB levels having dropped too much.

It is true that these UVB bulbs tend to put out less UVB than natural sunlight and that screen filters some of this out but the species you are working with is not a desert basking reptile like a bearded dragon and the output of a reptisun 5.0 through a screen enclosure has a track record of working well for chameleon keepers for a long time.

As Julie said, it is possible to overdose on vitamin D3 and montane species like K. multituberculatum seem to be more sensitive to vitamins then other species (i.e. Ch. calyptratus). It seems that her advice lacked the precautionary note that is important to mention, in my opinion, and perhaps she is not familiar with montane species.

Unless she took a blood sample or Xray to look at calcium levels in the body, I would not trust what she said about your chameleons calcium levels. Chameleons do shake slightly when walking. Its possible that this shaking you are seeing is abnormal but if that were the case, a thorough vet would have taken blood to examine the cause more completely.

Eye issues can be caused by a number of issues and I would disagree that most are calcium related. There are a number of other causes that seem to be more common in chameleons.

I'd have to see photos of your chameleon's dark spots to be sure but chameleons do have dark patterning on the top of their head and along the crests naturally at times. It seems she isn't necessarily familiar with different chameleon species so I would post photos and get a second opinion if I were you.

Chris
 
I agree with Julie and Chris. For montanespecies the rules are a bit different than for the veileds that vets see most. I wouldn't use anything but a ReptiSun 5.0 for fischeri and replace it at 6 months. We tend to forget that more intense lighting doesn't just add UV, but also tends to add heat and dry out the cage. Bad for montanes. I lost a fischeri to what I think was probably oversupplentation (based on more recent accounts I've read since he died).
 
... she said most of the reptile lights UVB and UVA that are sold in stores, will only put out the uvb and uva for about 8 weeks, then it sorta dies out and youre left with just the light...

Then she said to go along with that, the design of nearly all cham cages, with their mesh, screen, glass, etc, only allows for like 2% of those already weak uva and uvb waves to actually reach the chameleon.

...Next she said most eye problems are caused from low calcium levels.

...also gave me "Neocalglucon Elixir" to put on her mouth for her to lick off to raise her calcium...
Howdy Amber,

Regarding the "8 weeks" comment, some CFLs as well as some linears drop quite a bit during the burn-in period. For example, the "Arcadia D3 Lamp" drops about 25% after 10 days of use and then stays fairly stable for many months (http://www.uvguide.co.uk/compactlamps.htm). There are MV and MH UVB sources made by some mfgrs that also have significant burn-in drops.

Glass will pass only about 2% of the UVB while typical chameleon screen will pass between 50% and 75% of the UVB or any other light aimed at it.

While there may be a relation to low calcium and eye problems, there is more documentation associating a lack of vitamin A and eye problems.

Neocalglucon uses a form of calcium that is "more readily available" to the body for absorption. If there is D3 available then the body can pull the calcium into the bloodstream. Be careful not to overdue it :eek:.
 
Boy, am I ever going to find a Vet that I can take serious up here??

I'll write more in response to all of your questions and such when I get back from a dinner outing in a couple of hours.


**This Vet based the low calcium levels on the records faxed over from the blood tests from the Vet in Monterey.**
 
My, my I have a lot to reply to :)

...It is also a proven fact that chams can be oversupplemented with D3, and Fischers seem to be supplement sensitive...
...Chams will "slightly tremor" while walking on purpose to avoid predation.
How much did that mess of interesting advice cost?...
Yes, even though she told me, and I quote here, "I've never seen a chameleon overdose on calcium" I am still going to keep my routine of using my d3 calcium only 1-2 a month if even that. And the "tremor" that you and Chris voiced your opinions on, I also initially believed it was a cautionary action that all chams make when reaching out, that is why I said I've never heard of this being a health issue. Specially since she's never had any trouble holding onto branches and has never fallen or missed, even when she had only one good eye.
And this trip cost me $70. (First time to Monterey was $160, eek!) I'm the typical poor college student, but I'm not gonna skimp on taking my pet to the vet just cuz I'm short a couple of bucks, though this did rid my wallet of all but $5... I knew coming into this hobby that it is an EXPENSIVE hobby, just like reef aquariums, which I also have experience with, or really, any kind of pet, but it was a conscious choice.
And I know you're not bashing me. I know I'm trying my best with what little means I have, and believe me, I post on here to get your guy's feedback, so feel free to express whatever you want.

...I definitely would like to see some more photos of her so I can give you my thoughts...I'd have to see photos of your chameleon's dark spots to be sure but chameleons do have dark patterning on the top of their head and along the crests naturally at times...
...the truth of the matter is most reptisun 5.0s seem to last well over the 6 month mark...
It's 2am here in Cali, so she's sleeping, but tomorrow I will def. take some pix of her for you and everyone else to look over. Along with the dark spots, which I've always noticed but assumed they were natural.

...the truth of the matter is most reptisun 5.0s seem to last well over the 6 month mark...
...I wouldn't use anything but a ReptiSun 5.0 for fischeri and replace it at 6 months.
I have http://turtleshack.com/store/images/PT2187_EX_RepGlo_5UVB_26W_INT.gif .....should I switch specifically to "reptisun 5.0" like this one here? http://images.bizrate.com/resize?sq=400&uid=627017931.
For my heat lamp I just bought a "Zoo Med 75 watt Halogen Heat Bulb" cuz my other one was giving out....it was the only thing in stock at the pet store....was this a bad choice? I'm always a lil confused when it comes to heat lamps for chameleons. I can always return it and get something else that you guys recommend.

Neocalglucon uses a form of calcium that is "more readily available" to the body for absorption. If there is D3 available then the body can pull the calcium into the bloodstream. Be careful not to overdue it :eek:.
(I LOVE your pic by the way!) She wrote to give her one drop daily...perhaps I should only do it every other day? And I have no clue if she's even "licking" it off her mouth. I put a drop and she just stares at me. I watch her forever (which is really hard for me to stay still) but she just stares at me or walks away, with the drop still there on her mouth...I dunno if it just dries up or drops off...I only see her open her mouth to stretch, eat or drink, or sometimes I see her lick her branches. WHICH is another thing I'm curious about since I reminded myself. WHY do chams do that? I've seen a bearded dragon I had in the past do the same thing but to the ground.

It seemed to me that your vet in Monterey was very good. Perhaps you can ask him/her for a referral in your area?
I liked the way the vet in Monterey spoke to me, very calm, kind and thorough with tests. The vet here in Citrus Heights seemed very condescending when addressing me at first...which OK, I get if my cham was on her death bed or I was some clueless owner, but I hardly got a word in to defend my knowledge...
And when I was able to express that I actually do have background with reptiles and really do care for them she changed her way of addressing me to a nicer tone. I hate having to complain since that clinic was recommended to me by another member on here and I'm incredibly grateful for any advice from you all...maybe there's another vet that works there that they saw and had a good experience with...or maybe I'll go to East Bay Vivarium in Berkeley or the Upscale Reptile's store in Elk Grove and see who do they really go to for their reptiles care...or like you said, ask the vet's in monterey.

This whole ordeal is stressing me out.

I wish I could have a regular vet that is well experienced with all types of chams like it seems you guys have over in Florida. I hate having to search the web for an exotics vet, walk in and hold on to some hope that they know what they're talking about. It's always disappointing when it doesn't turn out that way. Specially when they assure me they've dealt with many reptiles. It's hard for me to walk out of the vet's office with confidence, specially when I compare it to all of you senior members who have many years of working with chameleons and those who make it their life's work/passion.

***But in the meantime, my cham is doing so much better since I started giving her the eye drops. She has her bad eye open regularly and I can tell she is WAY more active than before. I also had her in the bathroom while I showered so she got some good humidity going on.
 
...I have http://turtleshack.com/store/images/PT2187_EX_RepGlo_5UVB_26W_INT.gif .....should I switch specifically to "reptisun 5.0" like this one here? http://images.bizrate.com/resize?sq=400&uid=627017931.
For my heat lamp I just bought a "Zoo Med 75 watt Halogen Heat Bulb" cuz my other one was giving out....it was the only thing in stock at the pet store....was this a bad choice? I'm always a lil confused when it comes to heat lamps for chameleons. I can always return it and get something else that you guys recommend...
Howdy Amber,

To eliminate the potential issues associated with many UVB light sources, particulary CFLs, switch to a ZooMed Reptisun 5.0 linear tube. The 18" T8 (1" diameter) tube should be fine but 18" - 24" - 36" - 48" are all ok. Any T8 fixture that holds your length of choice should be fine too. T12 tubes are going obsolete so unless you already have a fixture designed for a T12 tube (T12 = 1.5" diameter and don't mix T8 and T12 tubes and fixtures!), stick with T8.

LLL Reptile has the 18" tube for $14.09: http://lllreptile.com/store/catalog...por-bulbs/-/zoo-med-18-repti-sun-50-uvb-bulb/
 
Amber,

Chameleons do not lick their lips everytime. I would say yours is just letting the "icky" stuff dry out on her lips.

Anything you are trying to give her orally needs to be done differently than you are doing it now. Fischer's are difficult to get them to open their mouths sometimes so you'll have to possibly get another person to help. VERY GENTLY, grab the cham behind the head and support the body with that same hand. Using the other hand, VERY GENTLY pinch the skin under her mouth/chin and pull down. This will get her mouth open to drop medicine or calcium down there. I always take the opportunity to also drop water at the same time. I know it seems too stressful and forceful but coming from experience I know, it is the best way to ensure the cham is getting what it needs. OF COURSE, if your cham gapes and hisses you'll have an easier time getting meds into it. My Giant Fischer's would rather die than gape at me so I've had to use the other method to give them their meds. I hope this helps!
 
Amber,

Chameleons do not lick their lips everytime. I would say yours is just letting the "icky" stuff dry out on her lips...
Yea that's what I was figuring what happened. It's hard for me to get her to hold still for eye drops...let alone pull her mouth open. I saw this vet do that to check her mouth, but I guess I'm always a lil' weenie about it cuz she's so little I don't wanna like squish her or anything. I'll give it a try though.

Howdy Amber,

To eliminate the potential issues associated with many UVB light sources, particulary CFLs, switch to a ZooMed Reptisun 5.0 linear tube. The 18" T8 (1" diameter) tube should be fine but 18" - 24" - 36" - 48" are all ok. Any T8 fixture that holds your length of choice should be fine too. T12 tubes are going obsolete so unless you already have a fixture designed for a T12 tube (T12 = 1.5" diameter and don't mix T8 and T12 tubes and fixtures!), stick with T8.

LLL Reptile has the 18" tube for $14.09: http://lllreptile.com/store/catalog...por-bulbs/-/zoo-med-18-repti-sun-50-uvb-bulb/
The only thing is I have 2 deep domed light fixtures (http://s3.amazonaws.com/tc-photos/11442/product/giant/513264.jpg) so I don't think that specific bulb you sent me will fit in my fixture...but if they have the same thing in a size that will, I will def. pick one up.

And for Chris and everyone else here are some quick pix I took of her right now. She's outside getting sun and I just gave her some drops so that's why her eye is closed in the pix. But she normally has it open now. And the "dark" coloration on her crest is kinda hard to see with the reflection from the ointment that I've put on these past couple of days...I gotta run to the store later to get some more batteries for my camera.
 

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Oh, she is tiny! If you did decide to go into breeding, I could bring Spike up...he's maybe a tad larger, but not much...they could make lovely petite babies....

But, I don't want to drive up and you don't want babies so that's not happening....

I've seen it suggested that you can piss them off to give them oral medication... the instruction was to put one hand over the chameleon's head in the enclosure and lower it down, aiming to grab the jaws....hopefully before you got there the chameleon would open his mouth in the classic "scary chameleon face" and you would shoot the meds into the mouth with the other hand.

Were I to have to do this, I would first have to remove my animal to some place like the kitchen sink because the cages have way too many vines and climbways for me to get two hands up close to the chameleon easily.

I've also seen a slide show on "prying your chameleon's mouth open"...the gist is: get a small rubber spatula/scraper...like an inch wide...then start pressing it into the chameleon's mouth...at some point the chameleon will decide to chew on the rubber,that gives you your in to squirt the medicine into the mouth.
 
Oh, she is tiny! If you did decide to go into breeding, I could bring Spike up...he's maybe a tad larger, but not much...they could make lovely petite babies....

Their babies would be microscopic!!! hahaha But no, no I don't want babies, and if that did happen I'll just let you keep them all since I don't have the means to care for more than 1 chameleon right now.

The whole prying the mouth open with something, the vet tried doing that with a stick or wand or something she had and that wasn't working so thats why she did the whole, pulling lower jaw down. I haven't tried it yet. She's in the middle of shedding right now.

***OH does anyone have a good Silkworm company to order from?? Coastal Silkworms and Mulberry Farms are out of stock of all their silkies except the tiny ones.....is it the off season??
 
***OH does anyone have a good Silkworm company to order from?? Coastal Silkworms and Mulberry Farms are out of stock of all their silkies except the tiny ones.....is it the off season??

You shouldn't wait for your chameleon to shed if you're vet says to give a chameleon oral medication. Just do it! Chameleons aren't smart enough to know that we are trying to help them...so just know pulling the lower jaw down won't be fun but the results will speak for themself.

As for silkies, they are pretty hard to come by right now. You could try Nick, he had some awhile ago. Here is his thread!
 
You shouldn't wait for your chameleon to shed if you're vet says to give a chameleon oral medication. Just do it! Chameleons aren't smart enough to know that we are trying to help them...so just know pulling the lower jaw down won't be fun but the results will speak for themself.

As for silkies, they are pretty hard to come by right now. You could try Nick, he had some awhile ago. Here is his thread!

Chill, I just mentioned that she's in the middle of shedding. That didn't mean I'm not gonna give the meds...and it isn't medication. It's just a liquid supplement to raise her calcium levels. The only "medication" is the ointment for her dark spots on her crown and the Eye drops.

and thanks for the thread
 
Mine happily eat the tiny worms....it just means you need to give more of them because, well...they're small. However, shipping is a big factor...maybe check around and see if you can find small worms that won't be as prohibitive on shipping.

I bought phoenix worms from that guy. One of my chameleons thinks this is the best thing I've ever done...the other (Spike) is a bit less enthusiastic but chowed 5 today...so he may be coming around.

I believe he has phoenix worms in all sizes. Again, the shipping is a bitch but the current special is "buy 2 cups, get one cup free" so I got 300 phoenix worms for $24 including shipping....That's not horrible. They last a long time at moderate (50-60 degrees) temperature....
 
Actually his shipping is cheaper (for me in Sacramento...dunno where you're located) than Mulberry Farms, but he charges a crap load more for only 50 small silkworms ($15.50) compared to Mulberry Farms who charges $7.49 (on sale right now) for 100 small silkies. BUT then MF makes you buy a minimum order amount of $14.90 to even check out.....
 
yeah...that's like high math...and while I admit to having been a "mathlete" in Junior High...I don't really do a lot of math in my 51 year old existence....

I actually live about 3 miles from the guy...I tried to work a deal in which I picked up my purchase, but they wouldn't go for it.

Anyway, it seemed to me that for the phoenix worms, the "buy 2 get one free" thing sort of negated the shipping charge.

the question then is: can I use that many worms?
 
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