Early Eggs

chamillion

Established Member
Hi everyone. My chameleons have mated 20 days ago. On 8/10/2013. Today I find three eggs on my plantation soil. I think she lays eggs after 30 days but she layed just 20 days later. And I'm waiting for 20 or more eggs not three !! What is the problem ?

 

fluxlizard

New Member
I don't think there necessarily is a problem.

Lizards don't have exact lengths of gestation any more than humans do, plus being cold blooded you get some pretty dramatic differences sometimes because of differences in metabolism depending on environmental conditions.

And then there are unexplained things that can happen too- I had a bearded dragon once lay 2 full clutches of healthy eggs only 10 days apart and she continued to live a healthy life for years afterwards.

20 days though is not really amazing IMO.

I'm not sure what kind of chams you have, but that is sometimes right in the ballpark for veileds and panthers that I have had.

The eggs look viable and healthy- I'd incubate them.

Really, if I were you a larger concern is why she is dropping them instead of making a nest. She almost certainly has more if she is a veiled or a panther but she is trying to hang on to them because conditions are not to her liking.

Your soil may be a little too dry or there may be no cover to make your female feel secure, or you may be disturbing her too often.

You might sprinkle some dried leaves thinly over the top of the soil so the soil is still visible between the leaves- my chams like that, they like the smell of real garden soil from my yard, and they often like to lay in or next to roots or under flat stones and the like- I will sometimes provide an old dried root or limb going into the soil or a piece of flat bark and sometimes starting a tunnel a few inches will also often give her a nice place to choose to start digging to lay.
 

chameleontb83

New Member
I have panthers. Soil is enough wet to lay. I looked eggs with a lamp. They are infertilizei.
This "can" be considered normal. It may or may not be a good or ok thing.
It really depends on her level of health, how old she is, and if she has done
this before, even if you didn't know it. Though my concern is that usually
when this happens, it's a health issue of some kind. That said, it could be
different factors that would cause her to not lay the eggs all at once. One
would be, that if she's not healthy enough, "and" if this is the first time she
has had fertile eggs, she won't go and lay them like she's supposed to. The
reason is that a female's level of health goes through a draining process
during the final stages of the egg development inside her, which is normal.
That said, when a female isn't healthy enough by the time the eggs are
ready for laying, "she" won't be ready. Her body tells her what she can and
can't do. It's just the way it is with chameleons. This includes whether or
not she may feel sick, which could prove fatal for the rest of the eggs, and
if that happens, that could make her even more sick, resulting in her not
getting all the eggs out in a timely matter, which in turn results in
egg-bounding. I hope none of this is the case with your female.

Tell me more about your female......

1 -- Is this the first clutch of "fertile" eggs she's ever had?
2 -- Was 20 days ago the first time she has ever mated?
3 -- Can you tell if she is ill?
4a -- Does she seem to be holding onto branches strongly?
4b -- ....or does she seem weaker than usual?
5 -- Does her tail seem to be weak at all?
6a -- Is she using her tail for anything at all?
6b -- If she's using her tail, can you tell if she uses it to climb with?
7 -- What would you consider to be her normal daily habits and behavior?
8 -- What are her eating habits?
9 -- What is her usual diet?
10 -- How old is she?
11 -- Has she ever dug and buried eggs before?
12 -- Has she ever used this soil before, or what has she used before?

I would ask if you are giving her enough supplements(calcium), but the eggs
in the photo seem to verify that she may have received enough calcium,
......"but"......we haven't seen the rest of the eggs yet. Time will tell.

Before considering taking her to the vet to get her checked out,
make sure she does not seem ill or overly weak, weak back legs, very
weak tail, sucken skin, sucken eyes, dry mouth, pale tongue, or
white-fuzzied nostriles, etc...)
If you monitor her a fair amount each day, then that's good, but now
spend "more" time with her, keeping your eye on her a lot closer, checking
for the above signs.

Here's some things you can do:

** Check again her level of health and for any abnormal habits.

** Study her current habits for anything unsual like weakness in
her legs, arms, and tail usage.

** Study and remember how the soil looks.

** Take as much time as you can while you are at home to see
if she ever goes to the soil to dig.

** Look for any places on the soil that looks
like she may have attempted to dig.

** If you see that it looks like she tried, then the soil may
not be right for her. Like some chameleons, she may be
picky about what she chooses to dig and bury with.
(mine mostly prefer damp sand) If you see her try, then you know
the choice of soil is wrong for her. Try damp sand at this point.

** If you never see her dig "and" you don't see any sign of her
having tried to dig, then she may be ill, or her health prior to mating
(and during egg development) has been poor.

** If she is very healthy, and you never see her dig, but you "do" see
dropped eggs, then the eggs are likely premature, and something
happened during the development process that caused them to develop
too quickly and her body didn't give her the signal to lay them yet, but
they are being slowly forced out.

** If ^-this is the case, incubate any eggs. It's worth a try, but likely
there may only be a 30% chance the eggs will survive and grow. That's
the bad part about "early eggs".

** You may also try to get a very large plastic storage tub, and fill it with
sand, anywhere between half and 3/4 full, depending of the size of the
container. First, poke holes in the sand bigger than your thumb at each 4
corners, and 4 holes in a square in the central area. Now, pour a considerably
fair amount of water evenly at each corner of the surface of the sand, then
pour a bit more 4 central areas of the middle, but not too much....just until
the same is still mostly dry at the top, but enough that you can tell that it's
getting pretty damp. This will ensure the sand gets evenly damp.
...........take the lid that came with the container, and cut out the inside of the
shape of it......about 3 to 4 inches away from the edges. Now get some mesh
screen material, and some cardboard. Cut about 1 to 2 inches in strips of the
cardboard, and cut a large enough piece of the mesh screen material that is bigger
than the hole you made in the lid. Lay the mesh and lay it evenly over the hole.
Now lay the strips of cardboard along all the sides atop the mesh around the hole.
Use a stapler and staple the cardboard down all around, and you will now have a
viewing area, area for hanging a warm lamp a few inches above the lid, well vented,
and is now an anti-escape lid that will ensure that you can leave your female in there
out of sight and make sure she digs in private.

This has proven successful for me many many times.

See if she digs at all. I would give her atleast a couple hours to try to dig.

If this doesn't work, let me know, as there may be something seriously wrong with her.

I've seen many different things happen with eggs: fertile, non-fertile, early
ones, healthy ones, unhealthy ones, etc.... I've seen it all.

Like I said before, there may be several varying factors involved that can
cause a number of different things to happen unexpectantly. If there is anything
wrong with her at this point, then you may need to seek a vet and get her
checked for anything that may be possibly wrong. You could save her life, and
the life of her future babies.

I love what I do, but sometimes, I admit, it's not easy, considering whether
if you think you're doing everything right, but then something goes wrong....
....that is "sometimes" just nature.
 

fluxlizard

New Member
They don't look infertile to me. I can't see size in the photo, but they actually look good- appear well formed and calcified. Usually infertile eggs do not look like that. Eggs don't look like they come from a female suffering from poor health either- usually deficiencies that prevent laying show in the appearance of the shell- at least that is my experience. Those look on my computer screen like nice, well formed, clean white eggs.

You may not see much yet when you candle. Incubate them anyway and wait and see. Worst happens- you waste a little time.

Soil may be damp enough, but conditions are still probably not right. You might want to visually isolate her (cover sides of her enclosure or move her - sometimes I use clean new garbage cans filled partway with soil). Try some of the other tricks I mentioned in my first response to you (add some fresh soil from outdoors (smell and texture can help), A few dried leaves, maybe a piece of bark or stick stuck into the soil at an angle and give her a start on a tunnel.

because of how the egg appears, my first guess would be something about her environment is not to her liking, not something wrong with her.

Could be wrong- I'm not there to see for sure.

But if I had to guess based on what you've given us so far- that would be my guess.
 
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chameleontb83

New Member
They don't lnook infertile to me. I can't see size in the photo, but they actually look good- appear well formed and calcified. Usually infertile eggs do not look like that.

You may not see much yet when you candle. Incubate them anyway and wait and see. Worst happens- you waste a little time.

Soil may be damp enough, but conditions are still probably not right. You might want to visually isolate her (cover sides of her enclosure or move her - sometimes I use clean new garbage cans filled partway with soil).

because of how the egg appears, my first guess would be something about her environment is not to her liking, not something wrong with her.

Could be wrong- I'm not there to see for sure.
Yes, you could be wrong, not to scare anyone, but we always have to
consider the possibility of something being wrong with a female. If you
don't consider it, then you may be too late to help her, if needed.
 

fluxlizard

New Member
Yes that is true and post previous to mine (simultaneous actually- I didn't read that post before responding- it's a good post to consider) is an excellent starting point.

On the other hand if you start with the assumption the lizard has something wrong and ignore the nesting conditions you may end up with an otherwise healthy lizard dieing egg bound.

I still stand by my guess based on the appearance of the eggs. I'll be surprised if I'm wrong. but I've been surprised before.

But agree- evaluation of the female is important part of it.
 

sandrachameleon

Chameleon Enthusiast
Really, if I were you a larger concern is why she is dropping them instead of making a nest. She almost certainly has more if she is a veiled or a panther but she is trying to hang on to them because conditions are not to her liking.
^^ this.

even so, the dropped ones could be fertile. keep in appropriate incubation medium to find out (you'll know if the eggs go shrivel and moldy that they are not fertile, otherwise they likely are, even if you couldn't see it)
 

chamillion

Established Member
Okay. I'm very happy to see your help, intrests. It's very very important for our country for TURKEY. Because these are the first panther chameleon eggs in our country. You will be sure female is very healthy. This is her first mating. I feed her very well. She got a lot of calcium and multivitamin. She dig soil usually. But after mating, she didn't eat anything she didn't dig she seems very strong and active but just she isn't digging and eating. Only she drinks water and when ı came home from school ı find three eggs. The soil is perfect and she used to dig it. But now she don't. Maybe it is abaout her first time. Maybe there are some fertile eggs in her stomach :D maybe they are waiting for 30th day :)
 

fluxlizard

New Member
I wouldn't count on waiting- once they start coming they usually need to come.

Especially when they start dropping them without nesting.

Does she look like she is having muscle contract around the eggs? they appear more visible beneath her skin usually just prior to laying. Can you get us a pic of her?

Soil dug in before breeding doesn't necessarily mean she will feel comfortable later. Don't make the mistake of overconfidence of conditions.

Actually- if you could take picture of her and then picture of her enclosure where she is set up to lay so we can see how it is set up and substrate, maybe we can be more helpful...
 

chameleontb83

New Member
First, when you wake up tomorrow, schedule an appointment with
the nearest vet that deals with reptiles.

I definitely see that there is a problem with her. She really needs help.

There are a couple of problems here:

#1 -- I noticed her eyes look a little bit sunken in. In the video, her
eyes look fine. This is either caused by illness, or pain, or complications
with delivery. That is a true sign that your chameleon is feeling ill.

#2 -- She should not be sleeping during the day, especially with
lights on. There is definitely something wrong at this point, meaning
she is very ill. When a chameleon feels sick, they tend to sleep at
abnormal times of the day, especially involving pain, because the only
way they know how to deal with pain is to sleep. In this case, you
need to take this seriously since she is pregnant.

#3 -- The male "may" have had an infection and given the infection to
her via mating, which will make her ill, give her pain, and give her
muscular issues and keep her from laying eggs.

If she has mated with a male that has a disease or has had
issues with his stool or infections with his private area, you may not
know about it until it's too late......this is because if he has an infection,
which may be small enough that it doesn't bother him, he may have given
it to her, and she may now have an infection, which could effect her even
greater, which will result in her having problems with getting the eggs out.
The infection may be causing both pain and problems internally, which may
be preventing her from getting them out. The reason she may not be
pushing them out is that if she now has an internal infection, then it may
be affecting her muscles around her private area, and every time she may
get the urge to "birth" them out, it may be hurting her badly. She knows
whether or not she can push them out, because of what she feels, and
she may be feeling the pain of the possible infection. That's why she's not
digging. She knows there is something wrong and she cannot handle laying
all of them at once.

With all honesty and seriousness here, I would take her to the
vet. She's pregnant, and she may have complications with
egg delivery. They may have to extract the eggs, so that she will get
better and not die. The vet can give her an antibiotic to cure the
"possible" infection (if there is one, but it sounds like there is), but they
may not be able to give it to her until all the eggs are out. The eggs
could carry the infection in the blood stream and an antibiotic will not
be strong enough to get rid of it, so the eggs will likely have to be
extracted by the vet either way.

Her life "may" be at risk here. Do not put this off. She may be ill, "and"
having delivery complications, which combined, could kill her. The
complications may be causing her to not be able push them out, then
eventually, she will hold the eggs for too long, becoming egg-bound, and
she can die from that. This isn't something new, but it's not to be taken
lightly. This is a very crucial and sensative part of a female chameleon's
life, so don't sit around and think it won't happen to her, because it might.

It will be worth taking her to the vet. They can and will help her, and
possibly save her life.

Schedule an appointment tomorrow!
 

kinyonga

Chameleon Enthusiast
In most cases with panthers its not a good thing when the female drops eggs like that. Sorry to have to tell you that...hoping it isnt' true this time. I hope she's not heading to eggbinding.

I would incubate the eggs she already laid. They could be fertile.

You said you feed her well...if you have been constantly overfeeding her it can cause reproductive issues.
 

chameleontb83

New Member
I wouldn't count on waiting- once they start coming they usually need to come.

Especially when they start dropping them without nesting.

Does she look like she is having muscle contract around the eggs? they appear more visible beneath her skin usually just prior to laying. Can you get us a pic of her?

Soil dug in before breeding doesn't necessarily mean she will feel comfortable later. Don't make the mistake of overconfidence of conditions.

Actually- if you could take picture of her and then picture of her enclosure where she is set up to lay so we can see how it is set up and substrate, maybe we can be more helpful...
^- This a very good comment. Overconfidence is and will always be a
recipe for disaster. Sounds like she has complications.
 

chameleontb83

New Member
In most cases with panthers its not a good thing when the female drops eggs like that. Sorry to have to tell you that...hoping it isnt' true this time. I hope she's not heading to eggbinding.

I would incubate the eggs she already laid. They could be fertile.

You said you feed her well...if you have been constantly overfeeding her it can cause reproductive issues.
^- This can be true is some cases.

The thing to also consider is the grasshoppers could be an issue
if they are caught from outside. Wild bugs and insects can carry
diseases, which could also be a factor here.
 

bobcochran

Chameleon Enthusiast
I would try digging a hole in the dirt 4 or 5 inches down to get her started. This has worked for me in the past. It also saves the female some energy.

If this is her first breeding and she is laying eggs after 20 days, it could be
you missed the timing to fertilize the eggs already formed inside her and she
bred for the next clutch. I also agree that the eggs could be fertile and they developed sooner than most because of individual metabolic reasons mentioned earlier. I have seen eggs from virgin females that looked perfectly fine for the
first few months only to fungus later.
 

chameleontb83

New Member
I would try digging a hole in the dirt 4 or 5 inches down to get her started. This has worked for me in the past. It also saves the female some energy.

If this is her first breeding and she is laying eggs after 20 days, it could be
you missed the timing to fertilize the eggs already formed inside her and she
bred for the next clutch. I also agree that the eggs could be fertile and they developed sooner than most because of individual metabolic reasons mentioned earlier. I have seen eggs from virgin females that looked perfectly fine for the
first few months only to fungus later.
^- This is exactly right. It was stated that they are fertile,
so the lives of potential future babies are at risk too.

Off topic.....hey Bob, that male in your avatar is just beautiful.
 
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