Chameleon with bad balance and signs of URI

Scott85

New Member
Hello everyone, its been quite a while since Ive been around but I have a chameleon that has just stumped me.

Your Chameleon - He is a WC panther which has been state side for 2+yrs now. He has been treated for all parasites and is still clean. Best guess on age would be 3ish.

Feeding - He gets fed every other day with crickets as a staple and other feeders occasionally all gutloaded and kept clean.

Supplements - I alternate herptivite, minerall with d3 and calcium without every feeding is dusted.

Watering - He is sprayed 2-3 times daily, and given a dripper

Fecals - His fecals look normal.

History - He had no issues from importation and he has acted totally normal until about 3 1/2 weeks ago. As winter came, the house temps dropped. It wasn't really bad but nightime temps would get around 65, daytime ambient was like 70. I noticed him not eating as normal (quantity wise) for about a week. I have dealt with URIs around this change of season alot unfortunately. I just attributed it to the temps at the time as a few of my others slowed eating a little as well.

As far as his cage set up its pretty standard.

Cage - 4x4x2 screen cage 3 sides of cage covered for humidity retention top and front open.

Lighting - 2 fluorescent fixture above, 1 grow bulb, 1 reptisun 5.0 as well as 1 75 watt incandescent for basking

Temperature - under the basking light its 85-90. And as low at 65 towards the lower parts of the cage

Humidity - I use an ultrasonic humidifier during the daytime and shut it off before I go to sleep. It keeps the humidity at 50%. At night it drops to nearly nothing in the winter. We have forced air heat in a very old house.

Location - The cage is in a very low traffic area, he does not get bothered much.

Plants - I use 1 tall palm and 1 s. arbicola in his cage.

Geographic Location - I am outside of Buffalo NY.


Now to the issue.... This has me stumped and I think my vet as well tbh.

About 3 weeks ago I noticed he was on the ground in the middle of the night and he hadn't been 2 hours earlier. I helped him back into the tree his grip was strong he moved well and all seemed fine. I watched him for the next few days with no odd signs, other than he wasn't eating as much as usual. 3-4 days later I noticed him leaning to his left quite severely on his perch. I took him out and he continued to lean to his left, I honestly at the time thought he was trying to hide, now I know that was not the case. After another two days he was actually turning his head to the left and arching his body as well. At this point he stopped eating on his own. If I put a cricket or hornworm in front of him he would open up and eat it if I put it in his mouth. It took me about an hour to get an appointment with my vet and I rushed over.

At this point he showed no sign of a URI. I was going on the premise that it was either a broken bone from his fall or possible nutritional, at the same time I was not opposed to trying some antibiotics. The vet didn't seem to think that it was a broken bone, we opted out of an x-ray. We did do the standard nutrient shots, A D3 Ca as well as fluids, I also came home with some metacam and ceftazdime. 3 doses into the ceftazdime (9 days later) it was pretty clear that wasn't helping. As he developed the tell tale signs of the URI while on it, extended gular crest, popping while exhaling, and excess this mucous in the mouth. I went back and got some chloampenichol. I am 4 doses into that now, and still see no improvement with either the URI symptoms or the fact that he his almost totally turned to his left at all times.

I did notice one interesting thing since this all started, that I have never seen in any cham before. He seems to have lost the ability to match the colors on his left and right sides. His head actually has a line going down the middle, His right half is "fired up" and his left is "dark basking". This is only since he has started to turn his head to the left, at first it really looked like he might of had a stroke. But he retains good grip all his limbs, just lacks coordination and balance.

One more thing that I noticed while clearing his mouth the other day. His trachea seems to run to the right side of his throat, not sure if it is because he is turned or what. It also seems to extend much further forward than other chams I have seen. Again not sure if his is due to inflammation as if is very red at the tip. One more thing, his tongue seems to be a little redder than I am used to seeing.

I hope I was able to include all the info. Any questions please ask. I am totally stumped on this one. If anyone has some ideas or similar experience please let me know. Thanks in advance.
 
Anyone have any idea? Please, I have another vet appointment at noon tomorrow but I dunno what else we can try for him.
 
Scott, I don't think everyone is ignoring you, I think they don't have any ideas. I know I sure don't! I saw one on here with the coloring you are speakig of but it was a temporary thing. There was a chameleon on here that kept turing to one side like yours. I wish I could find the thread and remember what the diagnosis was. Sorry cannot be of more help. Let us know what your vet says. Maybe we can all learn something from this. Good luck!
 
I am not sure about chams, but I just had a foster dog who had been bitten in the back of the head, as the days went by, his head started to tilt, and arch back - he had a brain injury - maybe for some reason he fell, and has hit his head - just a thought - ? or a stroke ? sorry, just trying to give a few ideas of things I have seen in our foster guys - I am not sure if chams can have the same issues - best of luck , I hope he gets better
 
Thanks both for your input. Carol, it makes me feel better and scares me at the same time that everyone else reading it so far is stumped as I am. little leaf, It is entirely possible that it is some physical injury. My first inclination was that, being that he started doing this after his nightime fall.

I did notice as I was turning off his lights and repositioning him, he is starting to develop a dark coloration in one spot on his right side. Basically where his body starts to bend. He has been laying up against it for the better part of 2 weeks so I dunno if its some sort of "rash" or if its part of the original problem. Im not sure if anyone has ever experienced a black spot, more a few discolored scales that a defined spot, from prolonged contact with a surface on a chameleon?!
 
here is my little rescue cham Gail- ( she passed away ) but she would do this sometimes - mostly when stressed I think- and more often before she passed ( not trying to say your little guy is going to pass- ) but does it look like this at all ? I do not know if this had anything to do with her being ill, or just something she did -
 
sorry - the pic wont stick ? but you can see it on my one post - "3rd vet visit - ohhhh Gail, you are an incredible Cham " its on the 3rd page- sorry I dont know how to post a link to it -
 
Yea the split coloration is very similar to what he is doing. I will get some pics up tomorrow either before or right after the vet.
 
What is up man so glad to see you post buddy.... As for your problem I am stumped man . Keep us updated it would be nice Intel if you and the vet figure it out.
 
Hi, i truly have no experience with this so what i am about to say would be what i would do if this was my animal.

1. I would have an xray done to see if the internal organs or any bone structure has abnormalities.

2. I would also suspect the drug prescribed to be possibly causing the inflammation. Im not familiar with the drug prescribed and maybe one of the vets will see this and give a little insight.

It is a controversial subject whether or not reptiles need help to replenish gut flora when ill or even on antibiotics but I suggest using benebac for (reptiles or birds) or nutribac. You can use human grade probiotics but to end up with the strains they believe are in reptiles you will spend a load on them. This can only help alleviate one possible issue.

Is it possible he aspirated from anything being administered?
 
It was a really long day, the snow complicated things. Here is an update for anyone following. My vet took three x-rays today. One from overhead, one from the side and one close up of his head from the top. No broken bones, no tumors, no real explanation as to what is going on still. The only thing that look questionable what the right lung was slightly brighter than the left. Which could be fluid or inflammation. My vet is having them sent out to be reviewed by a specialist, not sure who it slipped my mind to ask. Given the we have used two broad range antibiotics so far with little success, we are going to give an antifungal a try as well. I have to go pick it up from the compounding pharmacy tomorrow. I got a bag of sub q fluids to keep his hydration going as well, given all the meds he is on, don't want to beat this and end up with kidneys that are toast.

This morning I didn't give him the antibiotic or the metacam, in case I came home with a new med that couldn't be given at the same time. Turns out drug interaction shouldn't be a problem. His breathing was extremely laboured, mouth wide open, at the vet and when we got home. I gave him a dose of metacam and within 15 minutes he had closed his mouth and looked more relaxed, his gular crest was still extended but looked much more comfortable. Just wanted to share that experience, hopefully it helps someone down the road when their cham is having trouble breathing due to inflammation. I am in no way saying it will cure a uri, he had no mucous at the time I gave it to him, just what appears to have been a constricted airway.

So for now its just a waiting game to see if something works.... I will do my best to get up some pics shortly.

Thank you everyone who has taken the time to read about my buddy's problems.
 
There was a thread a couple years back about panthers only going one direction in there cages. Does anybody else recall? Also I wonder if its possable for a chameleons to have a stroke??? this is a stumper....
 
I know sometimes it is more frustrating to go to the vet and still not know anymore than you did before you got there- maybe the X-ray will show more to someone who can read it better- but glad they did not show a broken skull or tumor - sorry you little guy is still not feeling better :( hang in there, will add your buddy to my little cham pray chain :) keep us posted , I am curious too because mine also did this 1/2 & 1/2 pattern thing
stay strong
 
For anyone curious here is an update on his situation.

I got his new meds yesterday morning, Terbinafine an antifungal. I gave it to him at about 10am. He seemed fine all day until after I finished dinner, about 7-8pm. When I checked in on him he had his mouth full open and was pushing his tongue out trying to clear something. I couldn't see any mucous but I swabbed his mouth with a q-tip anyhow. To my suprise I found a tiny .5mm yellowish white lump. It was more solid than anything I had ever found in their mouths before. The best I can describe it as is the thick stuff inside a pimple, not fluid and not solid. I swabbed a few more times and found 3 more very small pieces. He was having a really hard time breathing, I honestly thought he was going to pass last night.

I figured it was better for him to be able to breathe than possibly OD him on metacam. I gave him a second dose of metacam, .01cc of a .5mg/ml oral suspension, which helped immensely again. If anyone with the knowledge could please chime in here I dunno the exact acceptable mg/kg dosage for repiltes and metacam. But again I just was trying to make him more comfortable. He stopped trying to clear his mouth with his tounge about 30 minutes later, and shortly after I turned out his lights. He slept all night long with his mouth open. I had an ultrasonic humidifier pointed right at him and a warm vapor humidifier in the room as well so his mouth wouldn't dry out too much. I covered him with some linens so he wouldn't get soaked from the ultrasonic fog overnight.

This morning he woke up and was trying to clear his mouth again, but more normally like when they first wake up. He was breathing better, mouth closed, and seemed generally in less distress. I noticed something large and more white in his mouth. I got it out along with 5 or 6 small yellowish white chucks like last night. This larger piece however was about 2mm long and about .5mm in height and width. Same consistency as the other smaller more yellow pieces, just larger and more bleached in appearance. I should have taken a pic or saved it but my first inclination was that it was a piece of food item left in his mouth. I squeezed it between my fingers, gloved of course, and spread it out. It was very slightly moist but very dry at the same time, and turned into a bunch of little threads, which could be spread out even more. I could then form it back into a ball. It appears to be masses of something, but what I am not sure. I am headed to the vet tomorrow for one of the cats. I am going to see about getting something to collect a sample with, I am just not sure how to preserve it viably at this point.

I have read some reports of nasty fungal infections and their effects, including both neurological and respiratory disorders. Hopefully he is on this right track with the terbinafine. Its the first real effects I have seen from any meds so far.

Thanks again to everyone again who has offered opinions and prayers, I think they really helped last night.
 
Every time I want to say, "Oh, I think its this..." you add a little more info to confuse the situation more :confused:. I was going to say internal bleeding, a stroke, a tumor, kidney failure, infection, etc., etc., but I have NO IDEA! I wish I had some advice for you, but I think you are doing everything you can. I would try to bring a sample of the chunks, maybe wrapped in a moist paper towel in a zip bag, to the vet and see if they can run some tests. Almost sounds like a severe case of pneumonia, but again I don't know. Best of luck with your little one, and I will also keep him in my thoughts!
 
I squeezed it between my fingers, gloved of course, and spread it out. It was very slightly moist but very dry at the same time, and turned into a bunch of little threads, which could be spread out even more. I could then form it back into a ball. It appears to be masses of something, but what I am not sure. I am headed to the vet tomorrow for one of the cats. I am going to see about getting something to collect a sample with, I am just not sure how to preserve it viably at this point.

When you say little threads, did they look like they might have been tiny worms? Like a pocket of small parasites? Otherwise it was probably pus. Reptiles make very thick pus to the point of even turning solid. It's kind of like you describe as being dry but moist. Maybe he has multiple abscesses in his oral cavity. Or fungal granulomas, which are basically abscesses from fungal infections. You didn't save any of it? If you get any more definitely save some! Just put it in a sealed plastic bag so it doesn't dry out and take it to your vet. They can look at it under the microscope and see if they can fungal or bacterial organisms. Based on your description I'd want to sedate your cham and get a really good look inside his entire mouth to see if there are more, where they are, and a good sample for culture to determine what caused them.
 
Decadancin, I pulled what I could find outta the garbage, luckily a fresh bag! I have it in a bag with some paper towels gonna take it with me tomorrow. Im glad I am not the only one who is stumped. At the same time I wish I wasn't. Many thanks for your kind thoughts.

Ferret I was hoping you might read this. It definitely was not worms or parasites, I have seen their pus before and the larger mass looked very much like that. The smaller more yellow chucks, which were more numerous, were more sticky and did not break apart like the larger piece. Before writing this i fished the q-tips that had a little remaining out of the garbage, I am trying to rehydrate them now, they weren't totally dried yet. Before I found the first piece he was tilted forward, I really do think that the junk came from his lung. My vet did remark that one lung looked to possibly have some fluid or something in it. Fwiw I do have a Leica DMLS microscope which is in complete working order and some basic stains, I just do not know what I am looking for.

Last night his mouth was open so wide I had a very good chance see inside for a long time. Nothing looks out of the ordinary, no lesions or lumps, other than the length and placement of his trachea. It seems to extend further into the gular pocket then normal, the tip is also very red, but Ive seen that with a URI before. It also sits on the bottom right side of his throat, although that could be because of how he is constantly turned.

Either way I am headed to the vet tomorrow, if these samples look viable then I will take them. If not Ill just bring home one of the sterile sample kits they use for the cultures, in case I can get some more.
 
A few comments-

-At this point, we really need to see some photographs of what you are describing, particularly the color change. I understand photographs of his mouth may not be possible, but you should certainly be able to show us his coloration, his stance, and from now on take photographs of the kind of stuff you're pulling out of his mouth.

-Bloodwork should be done and should have been done already imo, particularly before he went on an antifungal.

-It is very easy to photograph a standard x-ray when it's on the light box with a digital camera, and at that point post-processing can allow tremendous visualization. I don't know if you can get a photograph or a copy of the x-ray as I don't know if they were digital or old school, but I would certainly like to see the x-ray. If you're vet really feels that one lung is “whiter" then the other, he likely has a very serious case of pneumonia on that side at least.

-Regarding some other comments; antibiotics are not pro-inflammatory and would not cause inflammation. also, i may have missed his weight but I just gave one of my 180g panthers a medium dose of 0.5mg/ml meloxicam, and the volume for that was 0.05ml.


Overall, it would frankly be very easy to follow the path of an upper respiratory infection turning into pneumonia and then leading to a stroke, particularly with the change of season and your lack of humidity. I lived in upstate New York for almost the last 10 years, but the humidifier was going all winter long and I did whatever I had to do to keep it at a minimum of 50% in the chameleon room. Once they are at the point where they have significant pneumonia and the kind of abscesses that you're discovering, it is exceedingly easy for a stroke to occur due to the bacteria, pus, and other crud that is floating around his system right now. So if the clot hit the right part of his brain, it can definitely split his colors, and also does not mean it would have any effect on his strength. Just like a human who may have had a stroke can physically walk just fine and be physically strong, but their speech is slurred. It just matters what part of the brain is affected. Last year I was in the hospital for a month, and was with a girl in her 30s who had a stroke and she appeared normal in every single way, except to her the entire left side of her body was constantly burning, like a icy hot burn. her skin would even redden asymmetrically. From her head to her toes, only the left side. It just matters where the clot goes.

Both antibiotics that you have used are typically very good in general, but if this turns out to be bacterial or fungal pneumonia his lung can be damaged enough that a world's supply of antibiotics would unfortunately not make a difference.

You should be getting a very good answer on your x-rays soon, but if your vet can get a copy out, feel free to post it here or email it to me and I am more than happy to look at it. And I strongly feel that bloodwork is indicated, particularly with the change from antibiotics to antifungal.

Unfortunately, I do not have a great gut feeling about his prospects and I am very sorry to say that. At least know that the meloxicam is a good pain reliever for reptiles, so he is feeling better than he probably did. Keep us updated, and try to get some photos.

o—
 
Hoping for a good report today! Thanks for keeping us up to date! You guys are in my prayers!!! Good luck. :)
 
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