Cham with four joints on each hind leg?

[CrystalsoftheWaters]

Hey, Im new here, so give me some slack.

My veiled chameleon, Turquoise, who is still juvenile, at an unknown age to me, appears to have four joints on each hind leg. Images below...

Any info on this would help greatly. I'm worried about him!

 

[carol5208]

Unfortunately that looks like Metabolic Bone Disease to me. It if from lack of calcium and or uvb lighting. They could even have been broken and healed. In the health section there is a whole thing written about it. can you post some better pics of the front legs also.

 

[qdude46]

What UVB do you use and what is your supplementing schedule.

 

[CrystalsoftheWaters]

Thanks...

Now this, the MBD thing, has gotten my palms shaking, because he had other signs of it as we'll, like I crook in the spine if his veil, and a slight crook in his back spines. That is strange, though, because I am feeding his crickets withFluker's Cricket Quencher Calcium Fortified and Fluker's Orange Cube Complete Cricket Diet.
He also has a history of health problems, like a weird gunk in his eyes that I has to remove with water droplets to the eye.

I'm holding him right now, and he's grunting at me.

Supplements? By that I'm guessing you mean how I feed him and what...

I feed him 4-7 adult cricks Dailey, fed with the following. I sometimes give him Superworms, or large mealworms. I try to convince my did to give him other bugs, but he won't buy them.

I don't know what his lamps are, but they're by some brand like HerpaCare or something...

I'm desperate to get him back to good health, and I don't think my father can afford a vet bill right now, with him moving at the moment...

Grah. I'm nearly crying right now, and my hands are shaking...

 

[gavriel]

Carol's right. Better pictures of the whole cham would be greatly beneficial. MBD comes from a calcium or UVB loss so you would assume it affects the whole body of the cham. You can use the template from the link below to give us an idea of your supplementation, enclosure and general husbandry.

Please don't take this the wrong way, but are you sure it's a male? From the pictures you have here, I don't see the typical spur on the hind feet you would find on male veiled chams. I don't have as much experience with veiled, but maybe others can better assist with this. I do know that females require more calcium than males due to egg production so I just want to make sure we cover all basis when helping.

https://www.chameleonforums.com/how-ask-help-66/

 

[deadhd5]

I am sorry that your cham is ill, I'm sure it hard to find out that he is very ill. I can't believe that whoever sold him to you did not tell you about the basics of cham care. This is going to require a vet visit to stop the progress of the mbd (liquid calcium injection). You also urgently he to get him a uvb bulb / fixture and some calcium with d3.

He is in bad shape so urgent action is required. Also study a couple care sheets. Good luck to you and your chameleon

 

[carol5208]

By supplements I meant what do you dust your feeders with. Feeding your crickets a calcium diet is not enough. Your feeders should have been dusted with a calcium supplement everyday and then you should have been using a calcium supplement with d3 to dust your feeder with also two times a month or so. A multi vitamin is also needed to dust your feeders with. Most of us do that twice monthly also. LAck of this(the multivit) would not contribute to the MBD. You should have been using a UVB light of which needs to be changed out every 6 months or so for the future. The lack of dusting and if you have not have given your cham uvb exposure has led to his disease.

 

[gavriel]

Now this, the MBD thing, has gotten my palms shaking, because he had other signs of it as we'll, like I crook in the spine if his veil, and a slight crook in his back spines. That is strange, though, because I am feeding his crickets withFluker's Cricket Quencher Calcium Fortified and Fluker's Orange Cube Complete Cricket Diet.
He also has a history of health problems, like a weird gunk in his eyes that I has to remove with water droplets to the eye.

I'm holding him right now, and he's grunting at me.

Supplements? By that I'm guessing you mean how I feed him and what...

I feed him 4-7 adult cricks Dailey, fed with the following. I sometimes give him Superworms, or large mealworms. I try to convince my did to give him other bugs, but he won't buy them.

I don't know what his lamps are, but they're by some brand like HerpaCare or something...

I'm desperate to get him back to good health, and I don't think my father can afford a vet bill right now, with him moving at the moment...

Grah. I'm nearly crying right now, and my hands are shaking...

Don't be discouraged or scared. MBD is serious, but the problem can be helped and your cham could live a good life, but unfortunately MBD cannot be reversed. If it is MBD though, we need to get you on the right track as soon as we can.
Supplementing your feeder crickets is a really good thing because they carry those nutrients to your cham when they eat. However, using a calcium dusting powder on them before you feed is needed as well. Dusting one a week with some calcium +D3 powder, with UVB bulb helps the body break down calcium and use it efficiently.
When you fill out the questionnaire in the link I posted previously, we can look at everything you have and fill in any blanks you have in your husbandry. But you are probably looking at a vet visit for sure to confirm as this cannot substitute for vet care.
Also, you mentioned eye problems and a grown or noise while you were holding him? This could be a sign of infection that you can get looked at by a vet as well.

 

[Olimpia]

That's definitely a male, no doubts about that.

But the calcium deficiency is serious. Those gutloads (the food your insects are eating) are really crap, unfortunately, and your chameleon probably hasn't been getting any quality nutrition from them. Crickets and worms should be a fed a high-calcium diet of fresh fruits and veggies, like dark collard greens, and you can use a commercial cricket food of quality (Flukers is certainly not a quality brand).

When Carol says supplements she means if you are using any calcium or vitamin powders on your insects. We recommend using a plain calcium powder (one that has no phosphorous or vitamin D3) every day, to make sure that the chameleon is getting enough of it.

I know it sucks because it's expensive but a vet will be a great help right now. They can help you get his blood calcium level back to normal with the help of calcium injections and liquid calcium. However, getting your hands on some calcium powder is better than nothing so I would definitely start dusting his food with plain calcium (not super heavily, a moderate-to-light coat is enough) at every meal.

Also, you really need a good UVB bulb OR to take him outside for some natural sunshine. Sunshine causes the skin to make vitamin D3 naturally, like in us, and this vitamin is vital in the proper absorption of calcium in the bones and muscles. A good UVB bulb would be either a Reptisun (either 5.0 or 10.0 type) or Reptiglo 10.0, which you can usually find at any pet store.

You can cure MBD, but the physical breaks will never get much better. But getting his blood calcium level back to normal will definitely improve his quality of life.

 

[carol5208]

Carol's right. Better pictures of the whole cham would be greatly beneficial. MBD comes from a calcium or UVB loss so you would assume it affects the whole body of the cham. You can use the template from the link below to give us an idea of your supplementation, enclosure and general husbandry.

Please don't take this the wrong way, but are you sure it's a male? From the pictures you have here, I don't see the typical spur on the hind feet you would find on male veiled chams. I don't have as much experience with veiled, but maybe others can better assist with this. I do know that females require more calcium than males due to egg production so I just want to make sure we cover all basis when helping.

https://www.chameleonforums.com/how-ask-help-66/

That is a male for sure! You can tell by the markings and casque. He is mature enough to tell.

 

[gavriel]

That is a male for sure! You can tell by the markings and casque. He is mature enough to tell.

Yeah, I saw the colors and casque but just wasn't 100%, that's why I asked for more pictures. I just don't have as much experience with veiled as others do. If it did turn out to be female, since the owner looks to be dealing with MBD in her cham, just wanted to make sure.

 

[carol5208]

Yeah, I saw the colors and casque but just wasn't 100%, that's why I asked for more pictures. I just don't have as much experience with veiled as others do. If it did turn out to be female, since the owner looks to be dealing with MBD in her cham, just wanted to make sure.

nothing wrong with that because I know you were thinking on top of the MBD there could be the egg laying issue.

 

[Zen Reptiles]

Sad.

The fault is not your own. No breeder of any animal should let them go to new homes without a proper explanation of care and products required to keep a chameleon. Likewise, it is sickening how many breeders are in this only for profit and wholesale to petstores knowing their chameleons will end up like this. Shame on them.


You may want to try a Repashy product called Rescue Cal http://www.amazon.com/Repashy-Rescue-Cal-150-gram/dp/B0043XG87O

And although I have never had to use it myself, I have heard Calcium Glubioniate is an excellent calcium to use for reptiles in this dire of a situation.

Along with some exposure to DIRECT sunlight (outside), and a good variety of silkworms, butterworms, and phoenix worms....your guy should live, though the damage is permanent.

 

[ferretinmyshoes]

Poor guy, he has multiple fractures of each leg. Here is more information on metabolic bone disease: https://www.chameleonforums.com/what-metabolic-bone-disease-mbd-looks-like-how-happens-how-fix-95071

 

[Video Master]

Here is the link to the Veiled Caresheet.

https://www.chameleonforums.com/care/caresheets/veiled/

 

[CrystalsoftheWaters]

Thanks.

I will take your advice very seriously. I'll get my dad to get the proper lamps and such.

Your Chameleon - The species, sex, and age of your chameleon. How long has it been in your care?; Male veiled, about eight months old. No exact age known. I have had him for about four months.
Handling - How often do you handle your chameleon?; Most of the time, when I'm around. He hisses at me but let's me handle him.
Feeding - What are you feeding your cham? What amount? What is the schedule? How are you gut-loading your feeders?; Crickets and Superworms. 4-7 daily or the cricks, 1-4 weekly on the Superworms. With Fluker's brand cricket feed, calcium-enriched watering gelatin and complete feed.
Supplements - What brand and type of calcium and vitamin products are you dusting your feeders with and what is the schedule?; None, couldn't find in pet store.
Watering - What kind of watering technique do you use? How often and how long to you mist? Do you see your chameleon drinking?; misting.every 6 or so hours, lasting 12 seconds. No. Nor do I see him feeding.
Fecal Description - Briefly note colors and consistency from recent droppings. Has this chameleon ever been tested for parasites?; Black and yellow. No.
History - Any previous information about your cham that might be useful to others when trying to help you.; Has had problems with his eyes before.

Cage Info:
Cage Type - Describe your cage (Glass, Screen, Combo?) What are the dimensions?; Glass with screen top, that covered with a thick plastic sheet to regulate heat. Ventilation can still occur through a crack in between the two doors that is approx. 1/4 an inch(about half a centimeter(?)) and through openings in the top. About 1-2 foot by 2-3 feet.
Lighting - What brand, model, and types of lighting are you using? What is your daily lighting schedule? Unknown; 5:00 AM Mountain Time- 7:00 P.M.
Temperature - What temp range have you created (cage floor to basking spot)? Lowest overnight temp? How do you measure these temps?; last time I checked before thermometer was lost; 102 highest basking, 83/93 lowest cooling. Unknown. None, before a small wall thermometer made by Fluker.
Humidity - What are your humidity levels? How are you creating and maintaining these levels? What do you use to measure humidity?; 55 on my Hydromometer. Heat and misting. Fluker's Hydromometer.
Plants - Are you using live plants? If so, what kind?; None, planning to get a small mustar-leaf bush.
Placement - Where is your cage located? Is it near any fans, air vents, or high traffic areas? At what height is the top of the cage relative to your room floor?; in a corner, near a window but not directly in front. No, relatively low traffic. About 6 feet, judged by sight estimation.
Location - Where are you geographically located? In Arizona, desert region.

Really hope this helps.

 

[CrystalsoftheWaters]

Oh, no...

It's been clarified. Each of his legs are broken; I can tell by the war they move when he tries to walk around. He's in pain, and I hate to see him like this! I'm telling my dad this right now...

He's going to the herpa vet vet for sure. Poor guy...

 

[Dez]

YOur first priority is to see a vet and get proper lighting. If its warm where you are take him out in natural sunlight as much as you can.

From your answers this is what i see right off that should be fixed.



Your Chameleon - The species, sex, and age of your chameleon. How long has it been in your care?; Male veiled, about eight months old. No exact age known. I have had him for about four months.

Handling - How often do you handle your chameleon?; Most of the time, when I'm around. He hisses at me but let's me handle him.

Excessive handling causes stress...too much stress can cause a weaken immune system leading to illness and problems.s

Feeding - What are you feeding your cham? What amount? What is the schedule? How are you gut-loading your feeders?; Crickets and Superworms. 4-7 daily or the cricks, 1-4 weekly on the Superworms. With Fluker's brand cricket feed, calcium-enriched watering gelatin and complete feed.

Forget that flukers stuff. You will need to gutload with fresh vegetables and fruits. Use leafy greens...mustard greens, collards, but avoid broccoli and spinach

Supplements - What brand and type of calcium and vitamin products are you dusting your feeders with and what is the schedule?; None, couldn't find in pet store.

You will want to get calcium dust with D3 and without D3. also a multivitimin.
I would also suggest a liquid calcium and a calcium shot from a vet for his mbd

Watering - What kind of watering technique do you use? How often and how long to you mist? Do you see your chameleon drinking?; misting.every 6 or so hours, lasting 12 seconds. No. Nor do I see him feeding.

12 seconds is not very long. It would be best to have a dripper that drips throughout the day so you chameleon can drink when he feels the need

Fecal Description - Briefly note colors and consistency from recent droppings. Has this chameleon ever been tested for parasites?; Black and yellow. No.

Yellow poo means dehydration... a well hydrated chameleon poop is white and black/brown.. another reason the dripper would be a good idea

History - Any previous information about your cham that might be useful to others when trying to help you.; Has had problems with his eyes before.



Cage Info:
Cage Type - Describe your cage (Glass, Screen, Combo?) What are the dimensions?; Glass with screen top, that covered with a thick plastic sheet to regulate heat. Ventilation can still occur through a crack in between the two doors that is approx. 1/4 an inch(about half a centimeter(?)) and through openings in the top. About 1-2 foot by 2-3 feet.

Chams do best in an all screen cage. Ventilation is essential for a cham to thrive

Lighting - What brand, model, and types of lighting are you using? What is your daily lighting schedule? Unknown; 5:00 AM Mountain Time- 7:00 P.M.

You need a reptile light that gives off UVB waves. If your chameleon is not living in natural sunlight they NEED the uvb waves from the special light bulb to absorb calcium to thair bones. If they don't have this their bones get soft like spaghetti and break easily. The effects of MBD can be reversed and the bones can be made hard again.. but the deformates will always be there

Temperature - What temp range have you created (cage floor to basking spot)? Lowest overnight temp? How do you measure these temps?; last time I checked before thermometer was lost; 102 highest basking, 83/93 lowest cooling. Unknown. None, before a small wall thermometer made by Fluker.


Much Much too HOT I would be worried about cooking the cameleon in a glass cage. Basking temps can be in the mod to high 90s and the coolest part of the cage can be room temp...(70s)


Humidity - What are your humidity levels? How are you creating and maintaining these levels? What do you use to measure humidity?; 55 on my Hydromometer. Heat and misting. Fluker's Hydromometer.



Plants - Are you using live plants? If so, what kind?; None, planning to get a small mustar-leaf bush.

A live plant will help raise the humidity level


Placement - Where is your cage located? Is it near any fans, air vents, or high traffic areas? At what height is the top of the cage relative to your room floor?; in a corner, near a window but not directly in front. No, relatively low traffic. About 6 feet, judged by sight estimation.
Location - Where are you geographically located? In Arizona, desert region.

 

[carol5208]

why are you covering the cage with a plastic sheet? How would that regulate heat? If anything, sounds like you are cooking him in there. 102 degrees!! Remove the sheet until you can get a proper cage for him. Where did you get the lights from that you state "unknown"??

 

[gavriel]

I agree, glass sides and plastic covering the sides, sounds like its getting way to hot in there. Humidity is great, but there needs to be fluctuations in it as well. It's ok to let it drop and dry out some between mistings. Heat and water create the chances for bacteria and fungal growth but also turn the enclosure into a steamer if there isn't enough air flow. Stagnant humid air can also lead to RI's.

Hope your guy starts feeling better. With the pouring of ideas and support, we'll get you on the right path and get him straightened out, feeling better.