Can't pull herself up, please help
- Thread starter Bekkageary
- Start date
Bekkageary
Member
I have to wait until one is open, I am trying to keep her as comfortable as possible
Andee
Chameleon Enthusiast
She looks like she has some severe swelling and what could be MBD, which could likely be from dehydration or issues with you supplementation. There is a lot that needs to be adjusted in your care so bare with me as I try cover as much as possible.
Why do you have two UVB? first of all? There is no need for two and is likely bad for her eyes especially in that size of a cage.
Why are you putting liquid calcium in her water? It is not the way it should be supplied and I never recommend using an over the counter brand like fluker's. You should be using a multivitamin as well as d3 both twice a month depending on what you get, and if you aren't giving her a good type of liquid calcium the normal way then dust all her feeders. You are over feeding her extremely. You need to reduce her feeders by a lot. Most females her age aren't fed more than 8 large crickets (or feeders that are the correct equivalent) because otherwise they produce HUGE clutches of eggs. She likely may have eggs, but with her condition she may have serious issues having them and will likely never survive it. You aren't misting her enough or for long enough. You shouldn't have a waterfall, since they are the worst source of bacteria and unless you clean it and the filter every day then they are a danger zone.
Why do you have two UVB? first of all? There is no need for two and is likely bad for her eyes especially in that size of a cage.
Why are you putting liquid calcium in her water? It is not the way it should be supplied and I never recommend using an over the counter brand like fluker's. You should be using a multivitamin as well as d3 both twice a month depending on what you get, and if you aren't giving her a good type of liquid calcium the normal way then dust all her feeders. You are over feeding her extremely. You need to reduce her feeders by a lot. Most females her age aren't fed more than 8 large crickets (or feeders that are the correct equivalent) because otherwise they produce HUGE clutches of eggs. She likely may have eggs, but with her condition she may have serious issues having them and will likely never survive it. You aren't misting her enough or for long enough. You shouldn't have a waterfall, since they are the worst source of bacteria and unless you clean it and the filter every day then they are a danger zone.
Bekkageary
Member
Got back from the Vet, Ivy had a calcium shot, viatamins A-D-E shot, as well as some medicine and food for her. She will be okay, thank god.
Andee
Chameleon Enthusiast
Who said she's going to be ok? If your vet said that and still gave her all that supplements and medicine etc, I would call that wishful thinking and counting your chickens before they hatch. Exotics of all types are something that once they get sick it can take months for them to show improvements, especially reptiles.
Bekkageary
Member
Doesn't mean they can't get better. She won't be able to do everything normally but she'll still be happy. Thanks for you positivity though.
Andee
Chameleon Enthusiast
I don't mean to sound negative, I never mean to be taken that way. But I am not going to give false hope, I am just being realtistic. Trust me I am totally aware of how a run down and sick chameleon can become healthy (I do rehab work with them on my own pocket money). And she can get "better" but the issue with her not being able to do everything normally is she is an egg laying species. which means she will lay eggs eventually unless you get her spayed. And you can ask a lot of people on here whose chameleons look bad or came in like yours looks, they don't live a normal life span and usually die far sooner than they should from egg issues. Either way, I don't want you to be blind to possible issues that may arise.
Bekkageary
Member
I understand. Thank you
Andee
Chameleon Enthusiast
I didn't mean to upset you, just be prepared for a long recovery road ahead, and some fighting, usually if you give them the correct tools and if she's showing goods signs in a week, then all you have to do is keep on top of things. She will worry you, but just breathe and check back in with any worries and we can direct you if you actually NEED a vet or if it's just paranoia <3 keep your head up
Bekkageary
Member
Thank you, you've been very kind. I apologize for being sensitive and a bit hostile. I've always had very healthy pets, I freak out a little when things happen to her.
Andee
Chameleon Enthusiast
It's ok, it's been emotional for you the passed few days, and you've probably stressed yourself silly. Just breathe and make sure she has everything she needs, otherwise it's up to her. Oh have you made her a catch net? I honestly keep my MBD or generally chameleons with walking issues on vines because it's important for them healing correctly from what I've noticed, but catch nets are necessary if you do that
Bekkageary
Member
I'll definitely get one of those, they sell them at the store near me, thank you!
ChameleonTide
Member
Take some pictures up top of how you have your lights set up.
You said you don't use real plants...veileds are known to nibble on greens so it's advised that you use real well washed non toxic plants.
I notice you have a substrate...if ingested it can lead to impaction.
I would recommend that you feed/gutload the crickets and superworms etc with a wide assortment of greens such as dandelion greens, kale, endive, escarole, collards, etc and veggies such as carrots, squash, zucchini, sweet potato, sweet red pepper, etc and a bit of fruit such as berries, melon, pears, apples, etc. These can all be offered to your female too.
Andee has made a lot of comments about overfeeding her, fountains, etc so I won't repeat all of that.
I do want to talk about a few things though because she has a lot of hurdles to cross if she is to get back to being healthy and I just hope she can do it. I'm not intending to be harsh but it's not going to sound good.
Andee is right that she will likely be producing a large clutch and when this happens it comes with a lot of hurdles because the overfeeding plays into this. Veiled females that are constantly overfed not only produce large clutches but are prone to prolapses which I hope won't happen to yours and suffer from calcium issues as you are finding out. The calcium issues affect her ability to lay the eggs because calcium is also needed for muscle contractions. Calcium is also needed to shell the eggs so that's another demand that she has to deal with as well as providing nutrients to go into the eggs. Hopefully she will be strong enough to get through it and I hope she hasn't passed the point where she can lay the eggs.
To get a chameleon with calcium deficiencies back to good health it's important to give her extra calcium in the form of liquid calcium sandoz or liquid calcium carbonate until her bones, etc are strong again. It's also important to dust her insects with appropriate supplements....phosphorous-free calcium at most feedings and twice a month a phosphorous-free calcium/D3 powder and twice a month with a vitamin powder that com a beta carotene prOformed source of vitamin A. PrOformed sources will not build up in the system like prEformed sources will...but this leaves it up to you to decide ifmshe needs prEformed once in a while. The D3 from supplements can build up in the system which is why it's only recommended to be used twice a month allowing the chameleon to produce the rest of the D3 it needs from its exposure to the UVB light. D3 produced from exposure to the UVB light won't build up in the system as long as the chameleon can move in and out if the UVB at will.
Appropriate temperatures will allow her to digest her food and thus absorb nutrients from it. There's another problem you need to address...because she's sitting low in the cage she may not be getting the benefit of the basking light or the UVB...so that needs to be solved.
Until her bones are stronger you don't want her to fall either.
Does she have an egglaying container IN her cage??
I know this is a lot to absorb but I hope it will help you and her!
Hope I didn't miss anything.
Last edited:
Bekkageary
Member
This is what she's looking like now (image attached) significantly better than the past few days, but still has a long way to go. She's got MBD mostly effecting her long bones and jaw structure, some fractures in her long bones, and Gravid. Everyday she will be given Metacam which will relieve her pain as well as seringe feed her twice a day as well as give her water via seringe as well, until she is eating&drinking on her own again. The seringe food includes: 37.80% Crude Protein, 34.00% Crude Fat, 4.50% Crude Fiber, 1.40% Omega 3 Fatty Acids, 11.00% Omega 6 Fatty Acids, 1.00% Calcium, .67% Phosphorus, 9.00% Moisture ---> Calculated Calories: 1.67 Kcal/ml; Dry Weight: 5.14 Kcal/gm.
The changes we have made/are making:
- Switched mealworms to silkworms, will be fed every other day 8 crickets/worms all dusted with calcium ; vitamins 2 times a month. also plan on ordering hornworms&pheonix worms
- gutloading feeders with greens, tomato, potato, yam, and carrot
- misting is 4 times a day, 15 sec intervals.
- egg laying bin with moist play sand in standby for her
- substrate is now paper towels
- fountain will remain, I clean it everyday it's never been a problem&she likes it more than drinking off leaves
As for the MBD we are giving her more natural sunlight everyday, usually leaving the blinds wide open from 10-2 as well as ordering different liquid calcium. We also re-arranged her plants and vines to be lower so there aren't any falls right now, once she is showing signs of better balance&strength we will move the vines slightly higher and underneath put a reptile-hammock in case of a spill.
The changes we have made/are making:
- Switched mealworms to silkworms, will be fed every other day 8 crickets/worms all dusted with calcium ; vitamins 2 times a month. also plan on ordering hornworms&pheonix worms
- gutloading feeders with greens, tomato, potato, yam, and carrot
- misting is 4 times a day, 15 sec intervals.
- egg laying bin with moist play sand in standby for her
- substrate is now paper towels
- fountain will remain, I clean it everyday it's never been a problem&she likes it more than drinking off leaves
As for the MBD we are giving her more natural sunlight everyday, usually leaving the blinds wide open from 10-2 as well as ordering different liquid calcium. We also re-arranged her plants and vines to be lower so there aren't any falls right now, once she is showing signs of better balance&strength we will move the vines slightly higher and underneath put a reptile-hammock in case of a spill.
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Bekkageary
Member
Brodybreaux25
Chameleon Enthusiast
Is there glass or screen between the bulbs and your Cham? How old are your UBV bulbs? Why do you have two UBVs?
Brodybreaux25
Chameleon Enthusiast
You beat me to it! Isn't uvb also heavily filtered out through screen as well?
I've also been advised in the past not to use tomatoes in a gut load, can't recall the specific reason at the moment but maybe Andee knows why...
Andee
Chameleon Enthusiast
It depends on the screening, but if it's natural uvb, it doesn't matter because they will get enough useful uvb from it. Natural UVB is far better and stronger in a good way the light we provide.
It's advised not to use under ripe tomatoes at all, and use relatively low amounts of tomatoes otherwise...
"
Plant toxicity
Leaves, stems, and green unripe fruit of the tomato plant contain small amounts of the toxic alkaloid tomatine.[25] They also contain small amounts of solanine, a toxic alkaloid found in potato leaves and other plants in the nightshade family.[74][75] Use of tomato leaves in herbal tea has been responsible for at least one death.[25][74]However, levels of tomatine in foliage and green fruit are generally too small to be dangerous unless large amounts are consumed, for example, as greens. Small amounts of tomato foliage are sometimes used for flavoring without ill effect, and the green fruit is sometimes used for cooking, particularly as fried green tomatoes.[25]Compared to potatoes, the amount of solanine in green or ripe tomatoes is low; however, even in the case of potatoes while solanine poisoning resulting from dosages several times normal human consumption has been demonstrated, actual cases of poisoning resulting from excessive consumption of potatoes that have high concentration of solanine are rare.[75]
Tomato plants can be toxic to dogs if they eat large amounts of the fruit, or chew plant material.[76]:
It's advised not to use under ripe tomatoes at all, and use relatively low amounts of tomatoes otherwise...
"
Plant toxicity
Leaves, stems, and green unripe fruit of the tomato plant contain small amounts of the toxic alkaloid tomatine.[25] They also contain small amounts of solanine, a toxic alkaloid found in potato leaves and other plants in the nightshade family.[74][75] Use of tomato leaves in herbal tea has been responsible for at least one death.[25][74]However, levels of tomatine in foliage and green fruit are generally too small to be dangerous unless large amounts are consumed, for example, as greens. Small amounts of tomato foliage are sometimes used for flavoring without ill effect, and the green fruit is sometimes used for cooking, particularly as fried green tomatoes.[25]Compared to potatoes, the amount of solanine in green or ripe tomatoes is low; however, even in the case of potatoes while solanine poisoning resulting from dosages several times normal human consumption has been demonstrated, actual cases of poisoning resulting from excessive consumption of potatoes that have high concentration of solanine are rare.[75]
Tomato plants can be toxic to dogs if they eat large amounts of the fruit, or chew plant material.[76]:
