Calcium without D3 every other day.
- Thread starter broderp
- Start date
Blocking of the spiracle valves...
https://books.google.ca/books?id=Bt...v=onepage&q=powder crickets spiracles&f=false
https://books.google.ca/books?id=Bt...v=onepage&q=powder crickets spiracles&f=false
theintouchable88
Member
Not meaning to hijack the thread but on one of the latest chameleon breeder episodes with John Courtney(?) About vitamins and minerals he mentions a powder that's "full spectrum" and contains an incredible amount of supplements. I was wondering what is the name? and if it's only available in the UK? I think the only thing it didn't have was vit d3
nightanole
Chameleon Enthusiast
Yes the mysterious nasal salt glands.
So calcium "salts" and other excess mineral "salts" do not come out the nose, only sodium?
So calcium "salts" and other excess mineral "salts" do not come out the nose, only sodium?
broderp
Avid Member
Well heck, I just read that thread and opinions are all over the place there also. One guy says he does what I've been saying and doing: "the amount depends on how often and how old the Cham is" or something. So essentially saying if I skip a day, then the next day should have a little extra to make up for the previous day. This was the premise of my original post.
But, yes it appears I have been over dusting my crickets. It's so hard not to, as a tiny amount in the container I use along with the small crickets equals medium heavy dusting. Maybe my calcium w/out D3 is old. It's not like a fine baby powder, it's got larger sized particles.
Bush baby
Avid Member
Calcium is water soluble. You cannot overdose on it. Whatever the chams body can't use/ doesn't want, will simply be passed in it's waste. It's the fat soluable supplements like Vitamin A and D that are the dangerous ones for chams.
broderp
Avid Member
Yes it was, thanks. The pictures are pretty clear. I did read the posts though and at least one person does what I was thinking of doing, right or wrong, it just goes to show that there is no one easy answer.
I read opposing views and then look at who says it and attempt to judge their knowledge on the topic. Its a shotgun approach at best. But short of having a vet or a Cham biologist reply (who's info would have more weight than a "new member" for example) you have to pick and choose what you believe. That's the nature of forums. Do you have any proof of this? This would imply that you can not over dose a Cham by feeding them "ghost crickets" daily or every other day. It also implies that you can heavily powder the crickets, and the Chams body will absorb what it needs and pass the rest. This goes against what many others have been saying in this thread and in others.
theintouchable88
Member
Yeah I heard on the chameleon breeder podcast that if too much calcium is given, it accumulates in the joints and organs. But they also mentioned that is also caused by poor vitamin and mineral supplementation. It was a couple weeks back so I'm not quiet sure what exactly they said but it was a very thorough explanation. That's where I heard about the full spectrum supplements I heard about and asked earlier which Noone answered lol
niels99
Member
i did not read all of the anwers given above, i just thought id give you my opinion.
i do recognise what you are saying from what i have heard from a friend of mine with similar problems, i advised him to do the same thing as me and it solved pretty much all of his problems. here is what i do.
i personally do not like dusting, im not vegan or anything like that (no hate, vegans care about this planet way more than most of us) but i do not like additives in my chameleons diet.
i trie to put as much effort into gutloading my roaches as i can, and things are working out fine, i am a happy cham owner for nearly a year and i own other lizards as well that feed on the same bugs as my cham.
i do not say your cham does not need the minerals and elements included in the dusts, but i like to give it to them in a more indirect way, by gutloading.
if done correctly i believe your cham can live a healthy live( maybe even better) without dusted food.
i grow all of my ingredients for the gutload mix myself, or i gather them.
here are some of the plants and dustings i put into my gutload mix.
carrot( both the orange type and the white wild type that i gather outside)
dandelion
curly kale (much calcium, but i dont put in to much of it. anxiety with kale i guess, some kind of traumo from my youth XD)
a variety of beans( most beans are high on protein, and green snap beans are also good for calcium)
some walnuts( i have a tree in my backyard)
some sort of seaweed that i get at the market, dont know the english name
all of this goes together with the dusting and is blended and then frozen into cubes.
this way i get three kind of frozen cubes for each kind of dusting (multi vits, calci with and calci wihtou d3)
this way i can provide my bugs with healty food all year round. i feed my cham just as much as he wants.
i feed my bugs in the order that others feed their cham, calci without d3 cubes every day, calcu with d3 and multivits cubes every other week.
this way my cham gets everything i need in a more natural way,
feel free to critisize cause thats how people learn.
sorry for the long post and my bad english and that ive been away quit a while(but im back)!
i do recognise what you are saying from what i have heard from a friend of mine with similar problems, i advised him to do the same thing as me and it solved pretty much all of his problems. here is what i do.
i personally do not like dusting, im not vegan or anything like that (no hate, vegans care about this planet way more than most of us) but i do not like additives in my chameleons diet.
i trie to put as much effort into gutloading my roaches as i can, and things are working out fine, i am a happy cham owner for nearly a year and i own other lizards as well that feed on the same bugs as my cham.
i do not say your cham does not need the minerals and elements included in the dusts, but i like to give it to them in a more indirect way, by gutloading.
if done correctly i believe your cham can live a healthy live( maybe even better) without dusted food.
i grow all of my ingredients for the gutload mix myself, or i gather them.
here are some of the plants and dustings i put into my gutload mix.
carrot( both the orange type and the white wild type that i gather outside)
dandelion
curly kale (much calcium, but i dont put in to much of it. anxiety with kale i guess, some kind of traumo from my youth XD)
a variety of beans( most beans are high on protein, and green snap beans are also good for calcium)
some walnuts( i have a tree in my backyard)
some sort of seaweed that i get at the market, dont know the english name
all of this goes together with the dusting and is blended and then frozen into cubes.
this way i get three kind of frozen cubes for each kind of dusting (multi vits, calci with and calci wihtou d3)
this way i can provide my bugs with healty food all year round. i feed my cham just as much as he wants.
i feed my bugs in the order that others feed their cham, calci without d3 cubes every day, calcu with d3 and multivits cubes every other week.
this way my cham gets everything i need in a more natural way,
feel free to critisize cause thats how people learn.
sorry for the long post and my bad english and that ive been away quit a while(but im back)!
broderp
Avid Member
No negative criticism from me. I don't know how all that plays into the Chameleon nutritional requirements, or how the ingredients you use attribute to overall health, but I admire your ability to do this and make it work.
Just reading your thoughts make me tired
! There would not be enough hours in a day for me to do what you do given my resources. Not to mention, making gut load for one Cham's crickets is very costly and wasteful as I tended to have a lot of spoilage and freezer burn due to having to buy in amounts that I could never go thru for some reason. My breeder uses Rapashy Bug Burger for his animals and so far, the crickets are eating the stuff up. It's simple and I can make what I need. That's not to say I wont give them fresh leftover vegies from time to time. So I still need to supplement, unless I can get a All in One power for every day. (Wich I thing Rapashy does make)
If your chameleon gets too much vitamin D3 from supplements and too much calcium too it can lead to problems so although there is quite a bit of leeway in how much calcium is too much it's still not advised to overdo it. D3 and prEformed vitamin A can build up in the system and cause prob!ems and the balance of the two of them is important too because they are somewhat antagonistic to each other.
We have come up with our supplementing and gutloading from experience and to simplify it for newbies...however there are many ways to end up in the same place if you want to try any number of other supplements and commercially and homemade recipes for it all.
We limit the supplement with the D3 dusting to twice a month so that the chameleon gets some without overdosing it. This leaves the chameleon to produce the rest of the D3 from its exposure to the UVB light which allows it to make what it needs without overdosing it....as long as the chameleon can move in and out of the UVB at will.
We dust insects with calcium because most feeder insects have a poor ratio of calcium to phosphorous. If you can figure out a mix of ingredients that accomplished this by some other method...more power to you I guess.
We dust with a vitamin powder with a beta carotene (prOformed) source of vitamin A because prOformed won't build up in the system...so you don't have to worry about overdosing the vitamin A but it leaves us with the decision about how much prEformed is needed if any.
So...you can follow what we recommend oir you can invent your own method. We just try to make it simple.
As for my credentials...I've been keeping, breeding, raising chameleons and numerous other lizards, turtles/tortoises, and a couple of frogs for close to 30 years. I've worked with the vets on chameleon studies and to learn more about chameleons and also with the zoo to some extent too. I'm not a chameleon biologist (is there even such a thing?) nor am I a vet and I don't consider myself an expert because there's still too much to learn.
I hope this has helped a bit.
We have come up with our supplementing and gutloading from experience and to simplify it for newbies...however there are many ways to end up in the same place if you want to try any number of other supplements and commercially and homemade recipes for it all.
We limit the supplement with the D3 dusting to twice a month so that the chameleon gets some without overdosing it. This leaves the chameleon to produce the rest of the D3 from its exposure to the UVB light which allows it to make what it needs without overdosing it....as long as the chameleon can move in and out of the UVB at will.
We dust insects with calcium because most feeder insects have a poor ratio of calcium to phosphorous. If you can figure out a mix of ingredients that accomplished this by some other method...more power to you I guess.
We dust with a vitamin powder with a beta carotene (prOformed) source of vitamin A because prOformed won't build up in the system...so you don't have to worry about overdosing the vitamin A but it leaves us with the decision about how much prEformed is needed if any.
So...you can follow what we recommend oir you can invent your own method. We just try to make it simple.
As for my credentials...I've been keeping, breeding, raising chameleons and numerous other lizards, turtles/tortoises, and a couple of frogs for close to 30 years. I've worked with the vets on chameleon studies and to learn more about chameleons and also with the zoo to some extent too. I'm not a chameleon biologist (is there even such a thing?) nor am I a vet and I don't consider myself an expert because there's still too much to learn.
I hope this has helped a bit.
broderp
Avid Member
@kinyaonga Do you have a link that describes the products and recipes you buy and use? I'd like to read in some more detail on what you purchase and how you use it for your Chams.
At the end of the day, I want my Sherman to be healthy. I'm willing to try and see if there is a better way.
At the end of the day, I want my Sherman to be healthy. I'm willing to try and see if there is a better way.
I use Rep-cal phosphorous-free calcium powder and Rep-cal phosphorous-free calcium/D3 powder and Herptivite. I use them as described in my post above.
I feed/gutload crickets, locusts, roaches, superworms with a wide assortment of greens and veggies such as dandelion greens, kale, collards, endive, escarole, carrots, squash, zucchini, sweet potato, sweet red pepper, etc and a small amount of fruit like melon, berries, apple, pear I don't use commercial feeds/gutload at all....I just prefer natural. I cut the items into appropriate pieces and put all of it in a dish in the insects cage. This is the same basic food I provided for my tortoises and omnivorous lizards...including veiled chameleons.
I feed/gutload crickets, locusts, roaches, superworms with a wide assortment of greens and veggies such as dandelion greens, kale, collards, endive, escarole, carrots, squash, zucchini, sweet potato, sweet red pepper, etc and a small amount of fruit like melon, berries, apple, pear I don't use commercial feeds/gutload at all....I just prefer natural. I cut the items into appropriate pieces and put all of it in a dish in the insects cage. This is the same basic food I provided for my tortoises and omnivorous lizards...including veiled chameleons.
