BURNS. photographic demonstration.

[Eric Adrignola]

I have been meaning to post these pics together for years.

When I was going away to Raleigh in February of 2007 for training for 3 weeks, I changed the lighting on my melleri cages. I went from 100W bulbs to 90W halogens. To compensate for the increased heat, I raised the bulbs off the cages quite a bit. I thought they were safely away from the melleri.

I was wrong. My WC didn't get burned badly, just on his knees a bit. But Ardi got cooked. The door to the basement was left open, and the room they were in went down to the low 4's upper 30's at night. The temps were in the 50's and 60's during the day - except near the lights. With their internal temperature still low, due to the cold air temps, the animals did not feel the need to move form the basking area. They sat there all day, every day, for about two weeks(I came home one weekend and fixed it).

The skin simply turned whitish. Stayed that way for months until it started to die and dry out. Not just skin, but flesh and bone. During the whole time, Ardi behaved as if not a thing was wrong. He never showed any sign of being in pain. I applied silvadine cream to all burns, and no infection ever took hold. The damaged area did not fully fall off until nearly a year later. Since then, some skin has began to grow back.

This is a pic of him before the burn.

This is a pic of him about 4 months AFTER the burn.

Here is him today. Note how much of his dorsal crest was lost.

Here is Ardi next to one of the CH melleri. He seems to be protecting him from the evil camera...

 

[codiwatkins]

oh wow.....now i see why yall are always stressing the distance and watts of the bulbs....hopefully everyone checks this out and realize the importance

 

[luevelvet]

That happened to a male veiled i once owned. I left him with a female for a little too long and she bit him good right on his belly. A few months later, a scab about the size of a 50 cent piece fell off with a part of his rib cage with it. I looked fake. I couldn't believe how smooth the scar tissue on his belly was. Wonderfully healed. No scales or color, but still, for what I saw fall off of him, it healed great!

 

[jukeboxpunk]

burns

I learned the hard way and so did the chameleon. I caught the problem before it seriously damaged my cham. There is a minor slump in is back, barely noticeable. He his all better now and enjoys his time under the lights.

Are those just standard flourscent lights? or UVB? in those pics above?

 

[Eric Adrignola]

I am hanging two 48" double strip lights form the ceiling. Each one has a reptisun 10.0 and a standard tube for bright light. I measured with a solarmeter, and the configuration seems to provide a good flood of light UVB radiation over the entire basking area.

 

[Kent67]

Wow. I really have nothing to say at all but was still compelled to post. That is incredible. Knock on wood, I've never had a burn with any of the chams so I can't even imagine what that was like to go through. Ardi (that still feels weird to type) certainly isn't affected by it negatively. I'm sure it must've hurt like hell once the damage was done but you have to be impressed with their programming to never show a weakness. Great post!

 

[Eric Adrignola]

Yeah, their ability to cook themselves (wth our help) is surpassed by their ability to be totally unphased by massive trauma. It's crazy.


I named him Ardi because Ardi Abate, the former head of the CIN, told me years ago, that melleri were unsuitable for captivity. They could NOT live in captivity, HATED humans and all other chameleons - especially their conspecifics - were the most nervous chameleons she'd ever seen, etc...

She wanted their importation banned because of the "deadly retrovirus*" they carried.

This virus was so deadly, it would wipe out every animal you had Heck, so deadly it was, that it even infected the developing eggs. Yes, that's right folks - the melleri virus would be able to jump from you CH and CB babies to wipe out your entire colony of C.parsonii!

I had known of melleri for years before, through my friend Pete in the Poconos. I knew she was incorrect, and probably just acting out cause she and her buddies couldn't get them to live.

I was right. Pete was right. Everything he told me about melleri back in the early 90s was true.

So, when I had this awesome, friendly, healthy CB melleri - one so acclimated to people and captivity, it would eat in front of large groups of strangers - there was only one name I could give it.

Plus, Ardi is appropriate sounding for male or female. And I had no freeking idea what he heck he was at the time!

*my favorite aspect of the melleri virus sham was the addition of the little prefix 'retro'. Since a retrovirus sounds scarier than virus they used it. I may have been 15 or 16 when I heard this story from her, but I was not falling for it. I was young, but I was a NERD, first class. I knew well enough that a lizard virus was not going to demand the attention and expertize required to determine the virus' method of operation. Seriously, you think they're going to take the time to isolate a melleri virus, and THEN determine if it contains DNA or RNA?**

**typical virus is just DNA contained in a protein coating. It enters a cell, combines with host cell's DNA. Host cell makes virus components. Virus components join together, pop out and go to town.

Retrovirus' contain RNA, not DNA. They need to be changed into DNA after they leave the virus and enter the host cell. The DNA created from the viral RNA template is inserted into the host cell's DNA, which starts the process as above.

There ain't no way in all the nine hells that time and technology capable of determining this distinction was used on tree lizards. The addition of the retro prefix was a scare tactic.

Especially when you consider the melleri virus was really made up because some people let their LTC parsonii live with some WC melleri. The parsonii died. The melleri "virus" was probably bacteria, and was transmitted not by air, but "with nasty, big, pointy teeth. " (Monty python quote was fitting, I thought)

 

[nick barta]

Eric,

I wondered if the name you chose for Ardi was in fact rooted in Ardi Abates name. She and I had many conversations on the various 1990's species and husbandry, and the Mellers was a cham of suspicious husbandry technique. It was quite surprising to see her leave the hobby, and the effect it had on the C.I.N. publication.
I am sure we will in the future look back at our husbandry of what we beleive today, and chuckle at our absolute positions we hold so dearly now!

Nick

Yeah, their ability to cook themselves (wth our help) is surpassed by their ability to be totally unphased by massive trauma. It's crazy.


I named him Ardi because Ardi Abate, the former head of the CIN, told me years ago, that melleri were unsuitable for captivity. They could NOT live in captivity, HATED humans and all other chameleons - especially their conspecifics - were the most nervous chameleons she'd ever seen, etc...

She wanted their importation banned because of the "deadly retrovirus*" they carried.

This virus was so deadly, it would wipe out every animal you had Heck, so deadly it was, that it even infected the developing eggs. Yes, that's right folks - the melleri virus would be able to jump from you CH and CB babies to wipe out your entire colony of C.parsonii!

I had known of melleri for years before, through my friend Pete in the Poconos. I knew she was incorrect, and probably just acting out cause she and her buddies couldn't get them to live.

I was right. Pete was right. Everything he told me about melleri back in the early 90s was true.

So, when I had this awesome, friendly, healthy CB melleri - one so acclimated to people and captivity, it would eat in front of large groups of strangers - there was only one name I could give it.

Plus, Ardi is appropriate sounding for male or female. And I had no freeking idea what he heck he was at the time!

*my favorite aspect of the melleri virus sham was the addition of the little prefix 'retro'. Since a retrovirus sounds scarier than virus they used it. I may have been 15 or 16 when I heard this story from her, but I was not falling for it. I was young, but I was a NERD, first class. I knew well enough that a lizard virus was not going to demand the attention and expertize required to determine the virus' method of operation. Seriously, you think they're going to take the time to isolate a melleri virus, and THEN determine if it contains DNA or RNA?**

**typical virus is just DNA contained in a protein coating. It enters a cell, combines with host cell's DNA. Host cell makes virus components. Virus components join together, pop out and go to town.

Retrovirus' contain RNA, not DNA. They need to be changed into DNA after they leave the virus and enter the host cell. The DNA created from the viral RNA template is inserted into the host cell's DNA, which starts the process as above.

There ain't no way in all the nine hells that time and technology capable of determining this distinction was used on tree lizards. The addition of the retro prefix was a scare tactic.

Especially when you consider the melleri virus was really made up because some people let their LTC parsonii live with some WC melleri. The parsonii died. The melleri "virus" was probably bacteria, and was transmitted not by air, but "with nasty, big, pointy teeth. " (Monty python quote was fitting, I thought)

 

[Eric Adrignola]

Yup. Ardi was a really nice person. I talked to her for hours as a teenager. She seemed to have 'snapped' to me. Ehen the CIN became a guilt-trip, and it's position seemed to be contrary to the original idea behind it...

I kinda understand her deal with melleri. She tried, but couldn't get them to live. Lots of people did. So many of them died, so consistently, that she got sick of knowing that so much death was going on with the species. I believe she tried to succede with them. When she failed, she "knew" in her mind, that importation of melleri was simply killing them - they had no chance of survival.

She, as the very easy-to-contact head of the CIN, heard from lots of people. LOTS of them. And most of them were beginners with sick or dying chameleons. She probably heard from dozens of people a day about their dying chameleons. That could get to some people. Make them feel HORRIBLE, you know? Make them feel like their hobby was contributing to the deaths of thousands of animals. It got so bad, I think, that she started to come up wiht things to justify her beliefs - the melleri virus, the CIN article using old import data for maximum effect, the letters from schoolchildren begging people not to keep chameleons as pets - in the CIN NEWSLETTER.

Dealing with animals involves death. It's a very sad aspect of the hobby. Experimentation, science and discovery - all deal with death. The chameleon hobby even now is in its early stages of development. Everyone is learning. So much is unknown and so much must be learned. The path of discovery is not easy, and it is not for everyone.

I think, in the end, Ardi (Abate) was just not able to live with all the death associate withthe hobby. Being at the very center - if not THE center - meant she had to deal with a lot of it.

So, my meller's name is both an ironic statement, that stands against bull$hit and myths regarding the species, and a tribute to Ardi Abate, who did, in her days, do a lot for the hobby. I would like to think she'd be happy that some people are having success with the species.

 

[SimonBolivar]

Damn that sucks big time bout your chams. I'm really glad you are willing to share this experiences with us. Educational and it might prevent it from happening to anyone else's chams

I am amazed at how you describe their.. overlooking their skin and flesh (flesh??) being burned off. And the pictures make it look damn painful. I always wanted a Meller's, now that i know they are invincible i want one even more.

Thanks for sharing again.

 

[Pure]

I always wanted a Meller's, now that i know they are invincible

Be careful with that statement. Hardy would be a better term. Though, I don't think I would even list Melleri as hardy. Their level of care required to keep them successfully removes them from what I would call hardy. Invincible doesn't really describe any species of Cham.

Eric, Thanks for posting this. My Feruzi has a bad burn that has long since healed. We've discussed her being WC/CB and I believe she is WC. At least now I have a base line for just how long she's been in captivity. If it takes about a yr to heal like that then she has been in the US for at least 1.5 yrs. Eh, I find it comforting knowing she is well acclimated.

I'll get some pics of the healed burn, and post it later today.

 

[reyesjoshuacruz]

Yeah, their ability to cook themselves (wth our help) is surpassed by their ability to be totally unphased by massive trauma. It's crazy.


I named him Ardi because Ardi Abate, the former head of the CIN, told me years ago, that melleri were unsuitable for captivity. They could NOT live in captivity, HATED humans and all other chameleons - especially their conspecifics - were the most nervous chameleons she'd ever seen, etc...

She wanted their importation banned because of the "deadly retrovirus*" they carried.

This virus was so deadly, it would wipe out every animal you had Heck, so deadly it was, that it even infected the developing eggs. Yes, that's right folks - the melleri virus would be able to jump from you CH and CB babies to wipe out your entire colony of C.parsonii!

I had known of melleri for years before, through my friend Pete in the Poconos. I knew she was incorrect, and probably just acting out cause she and her buddies couldn't get them to live.

I was right. Pete was right. Everything he told me about melleri back in the early 90s was true.

So, when I had this awesome, friendly, healthy CB melleri - one so acclimated to people and captivity, it would eat in front of large groups of strangers - there was only one name I could give it.

Plus, Ardi is appropriate sounding for male or female. And I had no freeking idea what he heck he was at the time!

*my favorite aspect of the melleri virus sham was the addition of the little prefix 'retro'. Since a retrovirus sounds scarier than virus they used it. I may have been 15 or 16 when I heard this story from her, but I was not falling for it. I was young, but I was a NERD, first class. I knew well enough that a lizard virus was not going to demand the attention and expertize required to determine the virus' method of operation. Seriously, you think they're going to take the time to isolate a melleri virus, and THEN determine if it contains DNA or RNA?**

**typical virus is just DNA contained in a protein coating. It enters a cell, combines with host cell's DNA. Host cell makes virus components. Virus components join together, pop out and go to town.

Retrovirus' contain RNA, not DNA. They need to be changed into DNA after they leave the virus and enter the host cell. The DNA created from the viral RNA template is inserted into the host cell's DNA, which starts the process as above.

There ain't no way in all the nine hells that time and technology capable of determining this distinction was used on tree lizards. The addition of the retro prefix was a scare tactic.

Especially when you consider the melleri virus was really made up because some people let their LTC parsonii live with some WC melleri. The parsonii died. The melleri "virus" was probably bacteria, and was transmitted not by air, but "with nasty, big, pointy teeth. " (Monty python quote was fitting, I thought)

I like how it stemmed from two groups, 9/10 is scary when its parsons, but if it was veileds would it have gotten the attention?

but what about ken writing " There was a study done on C.melleri by a vet in Florida that was able to isolate a specific virus that was responsible for the symptoms described with the Melleri/parsonii. The data was lost and the contact with that vet as well. This was an unfortunate loss of valuable data."

thats a bummer.


" rom what I understand, there were several deaths in parsonii due to melleri bites. This was construed into a virus, then a retrovirus (my guess is that it sounded scarier than a regular virus...). then, it became something that would pass from the egg of a melleri into the soul of every living thing in your house, and - possibly - humans as well. The last time I head of it from someone claiming to know about it, I was convinved it was not true - that person had an agenda, and this virus thing fit it all too well.

Plus, I have melleri, and veileds and deremensis. The only illness I've had to deal with was coccidia in my WC's. "

lol, retro virus, hahaha that gets me everytime


and ive always loved the story behind the name.

 

[Eric Adrignola]

I would say that melleri ARE very tough, hardy chameleons. Their requirements are more demanding than a veiled, but I do not think they are really as sensitive or delicate as people think.

You absolutely cannot base anything on WC animals.

With CB animals, I feel they are actually easy to care for - provided you have the proper setup and information at your hands. There are aspects of their care that makes them more difficult - space and hydration being major issues. The concern ovr space seems to be complicated by their apparant desire to seek out other chameleons.

Many melleir are very roamy, and seem to despise cage walls. People couldn't keep them alive, they'd just keep trying to get somewhere else. I had no problem - Kristina thought the reason hers did well was because they were in a group - I believed her. Ardi was 3 months old when I got him,a nd he lived in a 2'x'2'x3' cage for about 2 years. Never climbed the screen once. I joined two of thesr together, and he lived in there (just 4'long, 2'deep and 3'high)up until I put in a big free-roam sized cage in the basement last year.

I believe the reason he was ok with that was because he was surrounded by other chameleons - he could see them. The seek out "others." They don't want to get too close - but they seem to be stressed if they are visually isolated.

This WC female climbed to the ground off her free range at KRistina's place, crawled across a cold, concrete floor, around the room and climbed up a table leg - to roost just 3-4 feet away from where Kristina an dI were talking. She went from a comfy, warm perch in a tree to a metal perch near the floor - because it was near us. Kristina said she used to climb onto the back of the chair she sat in while working.

They're not "friendly" in a human sense - don't want to go there! The best way to put it is that they seem to be less stressed, and they seem to feel safe when they are in proximity to animals they percieve as non-threats.

They have VERY different sets of behavioral quirks than most other species.

They're weird - for chameleons.

Nutritionally, I found that Ardi was a breeze to raise. Very light dustings of D3 and vitamins (occational vitamin A), UVB bulb, 60-75 W heat bulb. Frequent waterings.

Food intake was not all that much greater than a veiled. The only health probelem he's had was a recent swelling of his rear foot. I noticed this shortly after the female arrived. His food intake had increased dramatically. I kind of let him eat, figuring he was getting ready for some fun. Since he had gaine so much weight, I have decided to cut him way back. He's getting a smallish cricket every other day, with some other things thrown in on occation. Been about 2 weeks, and the swelling has gone down.

Chameleons are not delicatein every aspect. They are tough critter under certain situations. The more specialized ones are tougher, for obvious reasons.

One thing that seems to be pretty universal is their physical toughness. They are very hardy when it comes to physical trauma. I guess most reptiles are though!

I don't believe the story about the vet isolating a virus. You know how hard it is to do that? Isolate something only an electron microscope can see - it's not easy.
Besides, Ardi and Ken were both trying to get melleri to live. I know Ken had a hell of a time with it. She told me that Ken hatched them out and even the CB's were impossible to keep. They were worse than WC's! I've seen entire clutches of CH/CB melleri just fail to survive. I've seen some thrive. It's NOT the species. It's husbandry or something else (fire ants, etc.).

 

[Kent67]

Eric, thanks for posting the full background about Ardi Abate. I was wanting to post something similar last night but was just too tired. And you said it better than I would have, too. In spite of our very different views on these animals, Ardi was one of the pioneers in this hobby and had a LOT of success with many species of chameleons that 98% of the readers here have probably never even heard of and I also still consider her a friend on a personal level. She cares much more about these animals and their survival than hurting any of our feelings, that's for sure. She's not the bad person that many seem to think she is now. I think anyone that allowed themself to be the center of the hobby, as you said, for any length of time, would go through the same transition after listening to SO MANY people calling with their dieing chameleons.

For what it's worth, weren't the Davisons responsible for the Melleri bite/dead Parson's colony part of the story? I thought Steve even wrote something about it, maybe on Adcham?

 

[Sepioteuthis]

Hey Eric,

I think it's great you started this thread.
My melleri Guin is currently recovering from a similarly bad burn with the one difference that in his case he got a nasty pseudomonas infection in his knee. He is doing well, but he's been on antibiotics for months now.
Like you said,though; those horrible injuries don't even seem to phase them.

I'll see if I can dig up some before and during (since there's no real 'after' yet) pics of him.

cheers,
Suzanne

 

[Pure]

Here you go Mr Eric. I almost think this isn't a burn. It's location makes me think it was caused by rubbing in the box she was imported in. She does still have her horn but it is badly bent.
Any thoughts?

 

[Eric Adrignola]

could be. Rubbing, burn, bite. It's an injury of sorts. Unusual spot for a burn though!

Ardi Abate did a lot of good work, and shoudl eb remembered for it. I also will remember the annoying stuff that she did in the end of the CIN. No grudges, no animosity at all - but it is all stuff that is interesting. If anything, it shoudl eb a reminder of how BAD thigns were back then.

I had always suspected the Davidsons were the ones that lost the melleri. When she told me abou the "virus", she had spoke about their setup. She was very critical of the things they did with their greenhouses, and mixing of species in particular.

I know hey had a greenshouse full of chameleons, just roamign free.