Breeding true bloodlines

[Rocky]

Its for the purists ! If one wants pure pedigrees, one can take the necessary precautions, and expense, to maintain that standard. The market for crosses is not only among those who like the unexpected, and sometimes gorgeous, color combinations, but also with the inexperienced, if not completely uneducated, who may buy on impulse from a pet store that has an animal labeled no more descriptively than "panther chameleon". Locale crosses typically sell for less, while essentially costing the same amount to produce and raise, and do not make the same economic sense to many of us who want the best bang-for-the buck from the facility available to us. But to reject, or cull, or criticize crosses, is to be oblivious to the reality of the marketplace. If you got 'em, sell 'em !

I try to avoid hybrids like the plague, but that is just a personal opinion, with a good dose of business strategy included. It falls well short of being an ethical decision, so long as one is honest in how the product is represented. Put another way, producing crosses has no ethical shadow over it. The original stock upon which we base these distinctions is just fine in Mada, regardless of the alarmists. Chicanery within the hobbyist community is not the result of deliberate cross-breeding of locales, but rather the product of deliberate or slapshod misrepresentation, in "pursuit of the almighty buck" (how is that put on the Continent ? ... you don't have "bucks" ... just curious). That ethical lapse is rampant, btw.

Frankly, as facets of the marketplace become more polluted, it will increase the value of what the reliable purists sell. Both worlds can co-exist IMMHO.

I didn't keep up with this thread nor do I want to read through it so I read the first, second, and last page.

I completely agree with this. There are tons of breeders that mix locales to make interesting males. IMO a female will probably sell just as well as a male in a pet store. They don't look disgusting and if they see one for 1/2 the price I doubt it will go un sold. Why are there 12 pages of people ragging on a guy because he mixed locales. He came here with a problem and everyone started yelling at him.

Sponsors with mixed locales:
http://chameleonsonly.com/panther_crosses.htm
http://www.chameleonsnorthwest.com/breeders.htm

 

[sandrachameleon]

Frankly, as facets of the marketplace become more polluted, it will increase the value of what the reliable purists sell. Both worlds can co-exist IMMHO.

YES! That's what I was trying to say also.

 

[eisentrauti]

It's a problem with no real right answer. For me, though, the answer is simple - stick to Trioceros.

My words

 

[ChromaChameleons]

I have to admit , this has been one excellent thread. Nothing has been resolved, but a variety of POVs have been expressed and its all food for thought.

And for those that insist that this was a bash against the original poster, it was the furthest thing from the truth. The majority of posts have not involved personalities and the original poster should be commended for providing a thread with teeth! He may have unknowingly started the best thread of the month!

 

[reyesjoshuacruz]

can we now start helping him on breeding pure...??? two pieces of advice after like 13 pages?

fire him up, show him, himself before you introduce him

 

[jojackson]

I felt the need to repost this via quote as I beleive He might've missed it entirely.

However my true bloodlines will not mate! nosy be female hates nosy be male and vice versa, and ambanja male hates ambanja female, and vice versa.
Does anyone think there is a reason for this, or is it just a coincidence.

pg4 #32

Quote: ?member
I notice like many times in this forum, the actual question is never answered, rather a tirade about something which was not asked. unquote:

Bravo! I agree. Unfortunately My responses were of a 'my thoughts about that' nature aswell, I cant answer your original question however, since I simply dont know enough about chameleons specifically.

As A keeper and Breeder of reptiles for many years however, my first thoughts were that if you are housing together, or introducing only specific pairs, this may well play a part, as experience has taught me with other species.

Something to consider is to introduce the male to the females enclosure rather than vice versa. The change in surroundings wont bother the male from whats on his mind, so to speak, but the females may be a different story, if stressed she may become non receptive.

With this in mind, often breeders have more success on introduction, if they are not housed together for the rest of the year, but only introduced in the breeding season.
Im not sure why this so, but if you consider that two animals in the wild during breeding season, are likely to have met for the first time, its reasonable to assume that perhaps if they are housed together year round, intrest will be less (on the females part) 'familiarity breeds contempt' kind of thing.

Finally, not relying on the pairing of only one male with the female. Many breeders introduce multiple females to the stud male (not at the same time ofcourse) so changing the male you introduce may prove effective, eg she may be receptive to a different male than you had in mind. 'the eye of the beholder

Just some ideas!

Also: why the mixed lizards breed more readily I can only speculate (infact I did, wildly LOL but it was lost in the debate traffic)
but above I have put forward some reasonable conjecture concerning the 'pures', based on my own breeding of other reptiles over the years. Since he dosent mention his breeding practices at all, this is the best I can come up with.
I think perhaps he's been 'turned off' the thread, since he hasnt replied to anything since some pages back.

 

[Chameleoco]

Hello, thank you for the advice, i have been quite busy, hence my no replies!
I have shown corneleous my ambanja male, himself in the mirror, when i do this to my nosy be, he gets quite exited and fires up. Corneleous didnt. I have left the ambanja female in the same large viv as the ambanja male and have been sat watching for the past 24 hours.(not constantly, she was removed overnight) she is showing receptiveness, has made attempts to entice him, and finally gave up to perch on a branch above him. Corneleous barely batted an eyelid. He is still sat in the same spot. I guess i will just have to keep the introductions supervised and hope he finds his inner male! I think as treelionsuk commented, he may have had too much of a stressless existance and is quite happy to cohabit with a female as opposed to try anything on!

 

[sandrachameleon]

Some of them are just duds when it comes to breeding. I have a lovely NosyBe male that doesnt fire up at other males, doesnt have an interest in the ladies. He's the result of a CH male and a "pure" bred CB female, so his genetics are good, not inbred. Hes docile, pretty, some would say "friendly" - but in terms of breeding he's useless. His half brother, from the same male different female, is quite interested (but not quite as pretty or docile!). Luckily, I'm not intent on breeding.

 

[Chameleoco]

well, im not in any rush to get them breeding and if he shows no promise as a breeder, he wont be one! he is, i would say a "friendly" chameleon!

 

[Chameleoco]

Jojackson, sorry if i may have ignored you! I keep all chameleons in seperate vivariums, never ever together unless for coppulation. I introduce males into female enclosures, after a couple of weeks of visual contact.
chameleons are housed so they cannot see each other.

 

[jojackson]

How long do you introduce them for? If they show no drama together, perhaps you could leave them for longer. If theres no light at night they will both sleep so there would be little chance of drama during the night I would imagine. How long do courting males hang around a female in the wild?
Also if you were game, introducing two males to the same girl may work, though your intervention (if you worried about damage) in males fighting for her may ruin it.
Maybe dont let them see each other before the intro at all.

 

[CleanLineChameleons]

One thing you can try is upping their food intake as well as their mistings.

I do know that many chameleons will not even attempt to breed unless their are in optimal health. So make sure they are all healthy and active during the day and try to up their food (I generally use worms, silkies, horn, supers...there is just something about them).

-chris

 

[Chameleon Company]

Some of them are just duds when it comes to breeding. I have a lovely NosyBe male that doesnt fire up at other males, doesnt have an interest in the ladies.

Sandra, we have seen this as well. It seems to be completely random. We do not see it as being exclusive to pedigree Locale animals.

One thing we noticed years ago with crossed-locale bloodlines is that their genetic viability waned more quickly with the 2nd and 3rd generations than with Locale pure animals. We were not the first to report on this trend, and believe that Ardi Abate reached the same conclusion in the '90's, but its long lost in old notes. Our results were one of several reasons that we backed away from further mixed-locale efforts. A supporting observation would be the exceedingly poor results of trying to cross an Ankaramy with any other locale. I do not know if Mitsio's cross well with much of anything either. It is our belief that the further apart two locales are geographically, the less viable such crosses will be.

 

[Chameleoco]

Living where i do, the most common staple foods are winged locusts, locusts and crickets. Morio worms are also available but are of little nutritional value. The winged locusts climb all over the chams so i tend not to use them.
All food is gut loaded and supplemented and all chams are misted 4 times a day, 2 heavy and two light, and between times they have a dripper. My vivs are lined with kitchen towel and this is removed and replaced as it saturates.
All chams have white urate and poo's are all formed, unless they have eaten morio worms, when the poo's may be slightly runnier than usual.
I think i may have to leave them in contact with each other for longer, I have been trying not to do this as last time i tried this, a female nosy be ended up with a nasty head injury which required stitches.
I think i may try and leave them with more visual contact for longer periods, to try and avoid any more injuries!

 

[Chameleoco]

and back to the crossing breifly, I am not considering crossing any more morphs, and this has been my plan from the start, the morphs i crossed were morphs i had been sold. Mistakes happen all the time, and i hoped being honest about the crosses would be better than lying while i have them. I dont wanna mislead anybody but I have crosses, and have to be honest about them.
This is why it is frustrating that i have gone to extraordinary legnths to aquire pure blood lines........ and they dont like each other!!!!