jojackson
New Member
No I was serious, I dont know much about them, I was genuinely curious.
Are they temp sex dependant?
Breeding true bloodlines
- Thread starter Chameleoco
- Start date
No I was serious, I dont know much about them, I was genuinely curious.
Are they temp sex dependant?
eisentrauti
Avid Member
Yes of course.
codiwatkins
New Member
A very dynamic thread....
but what I don't understand: Here's a guy which is honest that he breed crossline. Across the big pond, seen from Europe, in the USA are also many people doing this, acting on this forum and until today nobody seems to have a problem with this.
May those members have more reputation or a "senior" title, but I don't understand why the hole round here's against himand behave like he's a beginning of all cross breedings
MY goodness I think This is the first time I have agreed with you!!!
But really guys What is the big deal. I can name 3 of our site sponsors that sell cross for hundreds of dollars.....maybe we should send them some NASTY messages about it
SoCaliSon
Avid Member
I will say that is a very valid a fair statement. I am humble enough to acknowledge a statement that makes me rethink my own approach. I can see where you see hypcoracy.
I will say when I bought my Nosy Be x Ambilobe, he was sold to me as a cross, and we bought him because mygirlfriend Julia at the time fell in love with him and his colors... and had her heart set on him. He came with a Nosy Be female... and seeing them both become sexually mature and knowing the "taboo" hold against breeding crosses... I decided this guy was to beautiful and healthy for me to not want to breed him.
I did say that I would only sell my females to people who wished to keep them as pets, but after thinking about what you said I don't see how it would be fair for me to tell anyone else that their perfectly healthy Pardalis is not of breeding quality or blood.
I would revise my statements to : I would not sell my crosses to anyone I don't believe will track the bloodline, and be as forthright about the origin and blood of the cham, and who I don't not believe would be as scrutinizing to any potential buyer of said cham... or said chams offspring, as myself.
lol ...I hope that made sense...
I do think that this kind of sentiment is important for anyone who breeds and puts local crosses on the market. If we don't keep some kind of organization, and tracking standard for what is being done, we could end up with a total mess.
Like I said... I enjoy being able to distinguish, identify, and reproduce the natural occuring variations of Panther coloration. But I also don't see anything wrong with producing our own versions of these color variations in captivity.
I couldn't agree more.
TreelionsUK
New Member
its shocking that there are so many people out there that really dont give a shit,a bit sad really
Its not pointless to preserve and maintain history brock,Really what your saying is locale is unimportant,They should all be labled Panther chameleon and then people can say,i wanna blueone.i wanna yellow one.....
The areas and the country that the animals are collected from deserve the respect and should be linked to the animals.
The problem is that female panthers are so hard to identify as one particular locale,that it really is a lottery for the guy who wants to breeds pure nosy be's and is sold a nosy mitsioXtamatave female,all the time,money,love effort spent to breed the animals,undertake the whole incubation and then be heartbroken when the animals turn out to be hybrids.How gutted would you be? and if you had 10 people on your waiting list that had been mis sold crosses,the problem effects more than just one person down the line
Its not pointless to preserve and maintain history brock,Really what your saying is locale is unimportant,They should all be labled Panther chameleon and then people can say,i wanna blueone.i wanna yellow one.....
The areas and the country that the animals are collected from deserve the respect and should be linked to the animals.
The problem is that female panthers are so hard to identify as one particular locale,that it really is a lottery for the guy who wants to breeds pure nosy be's and is sold a nosy mitsioXtamatave female,all the time,money,love effort spent to breed the animals,undertake the whole incubation and then be heartbroken when the animals turn out to be hybrids.How gutted would you be? and if you had 10 people on your waiting list that had been mis sold crosses,the problem effects more than just one person down the line
Chameleon Company
Avid Member
Chameleoco
I have to applaud you your honesty, and wish you much success with however you cross your panthers. Many here in the U.S., and elsewhere, are not so honest, and have been chasing the easy buck in panthers for years. Should panthers ever become mainstream in major pet stores again, as they were pre-quota (1998, which was basically pre-computer, and all the advances in CB and info sharing), locale labels on females will be lost in distribution long before the animals are sold.
You can go to major classified websites now and buy panthers cheap (or expensive, if you prefer) that have locale labels, but were not produced by the seller, so the seller is relying on the word of another producer to begin with. The ad will not acknowledge this. Some of these are straight Indonesian farm imports, where they are a locale cross, labeled as pedigree, before they are ever unboxed in the U.S. So they are already mislabeled before they get here, and then often misrepresented again before sale.
If you don't buy male animals large enough to show color, you are taking on greater risk. That some vendors peddle animals that many would regard as being too small to ship, much less provide some visual evidence of pedigree, seems a mainstay as well, as it is easy money. There are ways to minimize risk in any purchase. As to purity and integrity and Locale genetics being accurately represented unless otherwise noted, that horse was out of the barn long ago. Chameleoco already rates canonization compared to some of the fraudulent transactions that occur in the largest chameleon vending circles daily.
I have to applaud you your honesty, and wish you much success with however you cross your panthers. Many here in the U.S., and elsewhere, are not so honest, and have been chasing the easy buck in panthers for years. Should panthers ever become mainstream in major pet stores again, as they were pre-quota (1998, which was basically pre-computer, and all the advances in CB and info sharing), locale labels on females will be lost in distribution long before the animals are sold.
You can go to major classified websites now and buy panthers cheap (or expensive, if you prefer) that have locale labels, but were not produced by the seller, so the seller is relying on the word of another producer to begin with. The ad will not acknowledge this
. Some of these are straight Indonesian farm imports, where they are a locale cross, labeled as pedigree, before they are ever unboxed in the U.S. So they are already mislabeled before they get here, and then often misrepresented again before sale. If you don't buy male animals large enough to show color, you are taking on greater risk. That some vendors peddle animals that many would regard as being too small to ship, much less provide some visual evidence of pedigree, seems a mainstay as well, as it is easy money. There are ways to minimize risk in any purchase. As to purity and integrity and Locale genetics being accurately represented unless otherwise noted, that horse was out of the barn long ago. Chameleoco already rates canonization compared to some of the fraudulent transactions that occur in the largest chameleon vending circles daily.
Looks like sex is determined by genetics in veiled chameleons, but it can certainly be different for other species:
http://www.bioone.org/doi/abs/10.1670/33-05N.1
SoCaliSon
Avid Member
I have read that article... as well as another I am searching for at the moment... But as far as I can find, there is no chameleon species that's sex is determined by incubation temperature.
Towards the original topic of the thread...
I have also worked with Pardalis, Nosy Be in specific experience that seem to have less drive to mate. Just my observation in one cham. I believe this could be the case with any individual chameleon. Towards the paralleling discussion. We know in science that diverse blood leads to healthier animals, and that a small blood pool, or inbreeding to keep a specific trait can cause health problems down the line. I would be interested to know if the lack of diversity created within attempting to keep locales pure would be enough of a blood pool to create health or behavior defects in future offspring, in the CB world. With people striving to keep bloodlines pure, and with only so much new blood coming in each year, it only seems logical to think that we may be preventing blood pools from becoming as diverse as nature would allow them to become in the wild. In nature, 2 Pardalis would be allowed to do natures dance, and I look at it as this indifference as what allows for the variation in the species in the first place.
I wouldn't see crossing locales so much as messing with what nature has created, rather letting nature do what it would do, and seeing what happens. It could be said that striving to reproduce a "Pure" local several generations in captivity, is throwing the brakes on what may happen in the wild.
I still think to say that mountains and rivers, and "geological barriers" would completely prevent animals from migrating to different part of the island is presumptuous. There are to many factors, natural, and man caused, that can lead, influence, or result in a population of animals dispersing or migrating from one area to another.
I am not an accredited scientist... but I do know that nature is chaotic, we observe, and learn from it... but we should never presume that what we know is absolute... The only thing that is constant is the Chaos. And no matter how much we like to neatly classify things in our own world... nature has no classifications.
Just thinking out loud... By the way.. I love these discussions.
Towards the original topic of the thread...
I have also worked with Pardalis, Nosy Be in specific experience that seem to have less drive to mate. Just my observation in one cham. I believe this could be the case with any individual chameleon. Towards the paralleling discussion. We know in science that diverse blood leads to healthier animals, and that a small blood pool, or inbreeding to keep a specific trait can cause health problems down the line. I would be interested to know if the lack of diversity created within attempting to keep locales pure would be enough of a blood pool to create health or behavior defects in future offspring, in the CB world. With people striving to keep bloodlines pure, and with only so much new blood coming in each year, it only seems logical to think that we may be preventing blood pools from becoming as diverse as nature would allow them to become in the wild. In nature, 2 Pardalis would be allowed to do natures dance, and I look at it as this indifference as what allows for the variation in the species in the first place.
I wouldn't see crossing locales so much as messing with what nature has created, rather letting nature do what it would do, and seeing what happens. It could be said that striving to reproduce a "Pure" local several generations in captivity, is throwing the brakes on what may happen in the wild.
I still think to say that mountains and rivers, and "geological barriers" would completely prevent animals from migrating to different part of the island is presumptuous. There are to many factors, natural, and man caused, that can lead, influence, or result in a population of animals dispersing or migrating from one area to another.
I am not an accredited scientist... but I do know that nature is chaotic, we observe, and learn from it... but we should never presume that what we know is absolute... The only thing that is constant is the Chaos. And no matter how much we like to neatly classify things in our own world... nature has no classifications.
Just thinking out loud... By the way.. I love these discussions.
Last edited:
jojackson said..."Are they temp sex dependant?"...the next post by eisentrauti said..."Yes of course"...assuming that you were answering jojackson, do you have any papers on that eisentrauti? All that I have read (with the exception of one reference to c. chamaeleon) has said that there is no temperature sex relationship.
jojackson
New Member
Thankyou Slowfoot, Ben, And kinyonga if you should find some information about that, any cham species, please share with me. Sorry about the topic divergence But its a point of intrest to me and afterall we're here to learn about chams right
Lol Thanks Nick, glad your not offended
eisentrauti
Avid Member
I've had my information from Trioceros species not calyptratus so I thought that they have their sex is also dependent on the temperatures. I'm quite sure that when you incubate on clutch at 27° and one at 32° the sex ratio would distinguish strong
Veiled chameleons...
http://www.bioone.org/doi/abs/10.1670/33-05N.1
C. chamaeleon...
http://www.adcham.com/html/taxonomy/species/cchamaeleon.html
One more...
http://docs.google.com/gview?a=v&q=...maeleon"+AND+ratio+AND+hatchlings&hl=en&gl=ca
http://www.bioone.org/doi/abs/10.1670/33-05N.1
C. chamaeleon...
http://www.adcham.com/html/taxonomy/species/cchamaeleon.html
One more...
http://docs.google.com/gview?a=v&q=...maeleon"+AND+ratio+AND+hatchlings&hl=en&gl=ca
eisentrauti
Avid Member
But the second one about C.c.c. isn't a pro for you ?
eisentrauti
Avid Member
It says that the sex depends on the incubation temperature
eisentrauti
Avid Member
Ok, alright
eisentrauti
Avid Member
I must look later in my mess of books and journals and articles
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