Are our Caresheets Wrong??

[snitz427]

He strikes me as a very close minded and eccentric person. As others have said, the way that he presents his statements make them sound very opinionated without any research to back it up. I do believe that if you are going to go so far in your claims, as he does, and to try to upset the status quo, you should provide some evidence to back up your claims. Im by no means a guru, but thats the law of the land in my industry.

I dont know why that is bolded but I couldnt UNbold it... I dont buy into Mr Necas’ opinions because sometimes they’re kinda out there, but always presented as opinion. Everyone’s got an opinion. He could be a revolutionary mastermind, but if so he needs a mentor to teach him to write.

 

[PetNcs]

Not at all.

I am just looking for a disccusion comparing facts from fiction, if our care sheets are wrong, and could use updating than we should do that.

Brody is always posting Petr Nectas posts, and I was alerted to the existence of this site, so figured I'd do the same. Just looking for productive, valid disccusion .

if you are looking really for good and productive discussion, you might consider to invite the author and not speak behind his baxk. I can easily justify why I recommend like that... but you do not seem to be interested in it...

 

[PetNcs]

He strikes me as a very close minded and eccentric person. As others have said, the way that he presents his statements make them sound very opinionated without any research to back it up. I do believe that if you are going to go so far in your claims, as he does, and to try to upset the status quo, you should provide some evidence to back up your claims. Im by no means a guru, but thats the law of the land in my industry.

I dont know why that is bolded but I couldnt UNbold it... I dont buy into Mr Necas’ opinions because sometimes they’re kinda out there, but always presented as opinion. Everyone’s got an opinion. He could be a revolutionary mastermind, but if so he needs a mentor to teach him to write.

great talking about someone behind his back
Thisnis what is not called “culture “ in the industries and territories I am from

evidently, there is more interest to talm about the oetson ratjer than to talk about the interests of the chameleons...

 

[PetNcs]

We differentiate gender, to defy nature.

A Female Panther Chameleon in the wild, will have clutches of 70-90 eggs, so will yours if you give her the same temps and amount of food as a male. Thats fine, if you want 70-90 malnourished baby's and a dead mama, because laying a clutch that size alot of the time means death. If she survives the first time, of a 90 clutch, she likely wont survive the next that is going to come in 2-3 months.

We reduce food, and reduce Heat (Thereby, reducing the processing of food, which reduces metabolism and food intake naturally) to reduce clutch size and frequency to extend life.

However, there is a flip side to your statement. Madagascar hits upper 90s, every day where Panther Hail, Yemen is well over 110. So if we are going to use nature as the argument, then why are we suggesting low 80s for an animal that exposed to 110 every single day? Going against nature, is what these care sheets are suggesting, they are further from nature, by a lot more, than ours are.


"Who are we to judge whats right or wrong" - We are the people that began taking chameleons as Pets, 40 years ago. When we did this, we got them to live a few months, a Year you were doing great, 2 years your breaking ground. Fast forward 40 years, and we have by trial and error, and dead chams galore, extended that 1-2year wild lifespan, and 1year at best in captivity, and extended it to where Chams now live 5-7 years for panthers on average. We have more than doubled their wild lifespan, and even more increased their captive one.

There is one issue with the temperatires you name: they are incorrect. Yemens are NOT exposed to temps over 80 where they really live. You need to look at exsct data and nit on data from wrong regions within Yemen. A difference of few miles might mean a difference of 6000ft in altitude. Study the climate of the area, where tjey comw from and then talk.
same with Panthers: but take into considerstikn the extreme changes of the environmentc deforestatio. And temoerstire increase that hapoened in the last 100 years. Then you migjt land at a completely dofferen info base.
i suggest yoj either to get the rigjt data and/or same as me, invest your time and money to gl to Madagascar and Yemen in person and experience it yourself. Then you would know and not slecullate...

 

[cyberlocc]

if you are looking really for good and productive discussion, you might consider to invite the author and not speak behind his baxk. I can easily justify why I recommend like that... but you do not seem to be interested in it...

I wasn't aware that you were active on the forums TBH, I knew you joined, and spoke in that one thread however never seen you around since.

No one is speaking behind your back, this is a public forum. The data is available for you and everyone to see, and for you to respond.

Everything I said about you as a person, I have told you myself to your face. I also, refrain heavily from saying things like that about your or anyone. As you can see in other threads your brought up, I don't say that, and discuss the ideas.

This time, I did say those things, because I was provoked as stated, I felt provoked in the thread and more so in PMs. Was told, I was being biased, so I did clear up my feelings.

I'm not being biased though. Jacksjill will tell you, I question everything anyone says, without seeing the scientific backing . I will lessen my post down though, as it was a little too far, and I myself should have shown more restraint and respect no matter my feelings.

 

[PetNcs]

I think that depends highly on the Animal, and its needs, and what it wants.

The issue here lies, with the Facts. That again, the caresheets here are what people have been using for Decades, and the Chameleons bask just fine, retreat when done, and return when they need to.

Why not let the animal decide, what the animal wants? Read that sheet again, Petr is saying to give Male Adult Panthers and Veileds a 86 degree top basking temperature, and to only do so for 1 hour in the morning and 1 hour at night.

He is contesting temperatures that have worked for 30 years, and have had the approval of vets and biologists of which he is neither, with Zero evidence to his claim or reasoning and just wants us to accept it as fact because he says it is? All the while, he cant even keep his care sheets to have the same information?

The care sheets here, are not from waking up one day and saying "Yep this is the temperature chameleon needs, this is how long it needs it, this is how much food it should be given". These numbers that are given, are from YEARS of use, and Thousands of Chameleons across thousands of Keepers. They have been tried, they have worked, in many sitations and thus have became touted as the correct advice. They are mirrored on millions of websites, and studies, and keepers knowledge.

We are going to challenge all that with "You have been doing it all wrong, because Petr woke up today and decided so"......

I know he thinks he is "The Chameleon Godfather" but he isn't, he is a hobbyist that got to visit some cool places, and wrote a book, nothing more. I thought Herpetology was a Science, not a Facebook Popularity contest, guess I was wrong.

you are very kimd commentinv on things you jave no clue about, so be it your privilege. I kniw what I am saying. The kniwledge base develops and does nit stay the same. The history just proved that the average age reached by the “proved methods” varies somewhere between 5-7 years in experienced keeper and 2-4 st layman.
We can do better
But to do better, we need to be open monded and rigod and try tomoisten amd not bash for having a different opinion. The levelmof hate and righlessnes in lying about me is ridiculous.

 

[cyberlocc]

There is one issue with the temperatires you name: they are incorrect. Yemens are NOT exposed to temps over 80 where they really live. You need to look at exsct data and nit on data from wrong regions within Yemen. A difference of few miles might mean a difference of 6000ft in altitude. Study the climate of the area, where tjey comw from and then talk.
same with Panthers: but take into considerstikn the extreme changes of the environmentc deforestatio. And temoerstire increase that hapoened in the last 100 years. Then you migjt land at a completely dofferen info base.
i suggest yoj either to get the rigjt data and/or same as me, invest your time and money to gl to Madagascar and Yemen in person and experience it yourself. Then you would know and not slecullate...

That is a very valid point, I am not the biggest fan of Yemen Chameleons. I dont spend much time with them, or learning about them at all. I have never seen the data of temperature in their micro climates, nor sought that data out. I dont really participate in Yemen chameleon conversation very often, and usually try to avoid it.

you are very kimd commentinv on things you jave no clue about, so be it your privilege. I kniw what I am saying. The kniwledge base develops and does nit stay the same. The history just proved that the average age reached by the “proved methods” varies somewhere between 5-7 years in experienced keeper and 2-4 st layman.
We can do better
But to do better, we need to be open monded and rigod and try tomoisten amd not bash for having a different opinion. The levelmof hate and righlessnes in lying about me is ridiculous.

Its not Hate, as much as it is criticism. The way you present the data, is off putting for a lot of folks, myself included. Some of your ideas, and opinions are wonderful, the way you present them is not. That is what causes the divide you are seeing here.

I have tried before, to defend the presentation as a language barrier, however with time, I seen that was not the case. This isnt a hate towards you at all, its just a criticism and why the data in my opinion is tainted by the presentation. I am no saint either, I get criticized for being Blunt, Short and shoving links to papers and such down peoples throats all the time, or by writing "Novel Posts" that while helpful are off putting as they are overwhelming. This is something I try to work on myself.

I will just leave the first statement be, as to not derail the thread more, than it already has been.


As to the thread title, and subject. Its not the first time this thread has been made, its made every time another site or Facebook group pops up, with a completely different care sheet than ours. Its intent was sincere, for CF to look at our sheets, and the data we have and decide if CF sheets need to be updated. To compare, and discuss our sheets, vs the sheets of other sources, to the data that exists, and experience of CFs long time keepers, to always be growing and improving.

 

[PetNcs]

When I read this my impression is this:

Petr Necas is entitled to his opinion as all of us are. If he is basing these recommendations (and that is what they are, not Gospel) on biological data that that he has observed in the wild, they should fairly be open to speculation and skepticism. Demonstrated success in captive situations is due to very different parameters. Trying to reconcile the two completely is going to create problems. We all know there is more than one "acceptable" way to accomplish many things in cham care. This is no different. Experienced keepers become more discerning about what they do and don't do based on how their animals respond. Newbies need leading; they don't have the ability (yet) to modify what people tell them safely. I'd say read this information and consider it. Until someone sets up biological trials comparing all these parameters side by side and recording the results over generations we are all still left stating our opinions just as we were when we started.

this is a wise and ballanced answer.
The care sheets are made fir NEWBIES and are designed ti go safe
They are very well thiught through and lriven on tenths of thiusands chameleons from my and otjers breeding programmes combines with field data that I was licky to collect over three decades in the field.

frankly, after having found many answers to many quastions and helped many people and many chsmeleons, i confess ai have more questions than answers...

i would be soo happy to be so comfident in my opinions, as some of the colleagues in this thread are confident I am saying a bullshit

 

[PetNcs]

AFAIK, and can find, that would be a No to all.



Right ya, thats all fine and good, the "Petr Necas is entitled to his opinion as all of us are. If he is basing these recommendations (and that is what they are, not Gospel)". If that were the case, its not however.

He is pushing this, with the Pretense that if you do not follow these guidelines, you are a horrid keeper, you will kill your chameleon, and your chameleon is not living as long as it should. He states this, on pretty much a daily basis.

Onwards to the fact, that newer keepers are taking this AS GOSPEL, I have received Numerous PMs, since starting this thread, yelling at me telling me "The way you are keeping and the way the forum does, is WRONG, how dare you question Petr". (a lot of which on Facebook, the Facebook crowd knows who I am, here and there)

That is where my Gripe stems, he is creating a cult following, with untested and unproven information, that he is very brashly pushing as Pure Facts.

I approached him, with something he stated long ago, and said well "Madcham.DE, and these articles here state this is the case in that issue" it was pertaining to environments in Madagascar, he said all those sources were Crackpots, he is right they are wrong, the end, bring it up again and you will be removed from the group.

He did the same thing when he was going off how Wild Caught Veileds in Florida, dont have Parasites. Salty made another post (just recently, way after my comment on it over a year ago), Salty just asked he said, in a group where Petr is an Admin. Petr responded to him in DM, after deleting the post, and told him, they dont and stop spreading lies. That is taking it WAY beyond "this is my opinion" and moving into censoring of ideas he doesn't agree with.

That is not presenting an Opinion. That's force feeding fallacy's as facts, and viciously upholding them to be so. Its not his opinions, or ideas I take take issue with, as much as his way of presenting them, as Fact, and Flat out stating "if you dont listen you will kill your animal, you are wrong, you know nothing." to which he says, on a daily basis.


This about Sums up my point completely....

View attachment 258295

Oh even better, All Veileds in US captivity come from Petrs Breeding....
View attachment 258297

You kniw nothing about me and dare to bash me publically
That has no level, that is an absolute crap

work with imformation amd not with danullations as you show here

 

[PetNcs]

I wasn't aware that you were active on the forums TBH, I knew you joined, and spoke in that one thread however never seen you around since.

No one is speaking behind your back, this is a public forum. The data is available for you and everyone to see, and for you to respond.

Everything I said about you as a person, I have told you myself to your face. I also, refrain heavily from saying things like that about your or anyone. As you can see in other threads your brought up, I don't say that, and discuss the ideas.

This time, I did say those things, because I was provoked as stated, I felt provoked in the thread and more so in PMs. Was told, I was being biased, so I did clear up my feelings.

I'm not being biased though. Jacksjill will tell you, I question everything anyone says, without seeing the scientific backing . I will lessen my post down though, as it was a little too far, and I myself should have shown more restraint and respect no matter my feelings.

That is a tone I am ready to accept and discuss further, the hateful comments of some otjers are not a good base for it

of you soeak about the recommended caresheets here, please check them for precisenness forst. They present many errors: not an opinion, a hard fact

 

[PetNcs]

That is a very valid point, I am not the biggest fan of Yemen Chameleons. I dont spend much time with them, or learning about them at all. I have never seen the data of temperature in their micro climates, nor sought that data out. I dont really participate in Yemen chameleon conversation very often, and usually try to avoid it.




Its not Hate, as much as it is criticism. The way you present the data, is off putting for a lot of folks, myself included. Some of your ideas, and opinions are wonderful, the way you present them is not. That is what causes the divide you are seeing here.

I have tried before, to defend the presentation as a language barrier, however with time, I seen that was not the case. This isnt a hate towards you at all, its just a criticism and why the data in my opinion is tainted by the presentation. I am no saint either, I get criticized for being Blunt, Short and shoving links to papers and such down peoples throats all the time, or by writing "Novel Posts" that while helpful are off putting as they are overwhelming. This is something I try to work on myself.

I will just leave the first statement be, as to not derail the thread more, than it already has been.


As to the thread title, and subject. Its not the first time this thread has been made, its made every time another site or Facebook group pops up, with a completely different care sheet than ours. Its intent was sincere, for CF to look at our sheets, and the data we have and decide if CF sheets need to be updated. To compare, and discuss our sheets, vs the sheets of other sources, to the data that exists, and experience of CFs long time keepers, to always be growing and improving.

itnis sooo easy to habe the rigjt climatic data about ayemen chameleons and deribe tje microclimatoc data from them, that will be lower at daytim on the middle of the bush obviously...
judt ise your iPhone for 2s and you jave correct data

 

[cyberlocc]

of you soeak about the recommended caresheets here, please check them for precisenness forst. They present many errors: not an opinion, a hard fact

Well again, that was the entire point of the thread. Its title was not meant to be derogatory to yours, it was to compare to ours, and look at hard data and see if and where CF could improve. A thread like this always pops up, every time there is a new facebook group, or whatnot that has a differing care sheet.

itnis sooo easy to habe the rigjt climatic data about ayemen chameleons and deribe tje microclimatoc data from them, that will be lower at daytim on the middle of the bush obviously...
judt ise your iPhone for 2s and you jave correct data

Where is that correct data? How do we find it on our phones? What is ibb?

 

[jcarlsen]

@PetNcs I'm curious if you have examples of your practices in hydration and so forth in action. Do you have images of captive chameleons and their enclosures you could show us?

 

[snitz427]

Not talking behind your back, you are present on the forums, and it sounds as if you are not open to discussion on other public forums (fb). The opinions of experienced keepers are very valuable, but they are still opinions. If someone challenges your opinion, or more typically, YOU challenge theirs, you need some data to back up your claim. My comment and my point is just that. Without adding context and examples your statements are being perceived as strong opinions, despite you labeling them as facts. With more data to back it up you may very well revolutionize chameleon keeping.

 

[Goose502]

Hello all, not to “stoke the fire”, but @PetNcs, what exactly are your credentials and experience? I feel experience is to be valued almost as high as formal training. Again, meaning ZERO disrespect, just curious myself as are others I’m sure. If you have explained this before I apologize as I am not aware.

 

[Lennoncham]

That is a tone I am ready to accept and discuss further, the hateful comments of some otjers are not a good base for it

of you soeak about the recommended caresheets here, please check them for precisenness forst. They present many errors: not an opinion, a hard fact

I’m curious what errors theses would be? And if it’s so full of errors why does it reference you as the source of info?

 

[Syreptyon]

It is so embarrassing the way some of you talk about Petr.

Even if you disagree with or question some of the things he says, that does NOT give you the green light to question his character (see words like "eccentric," "close-minded", etc.) and essentially subtweet about him, leaving it to him to find this discussion of him in the first place. You probably only comment on "eccentricity" because English isn't his first language - not a good look, so let's go ahead and strike that from future conversation.

As much as people here like to s*** on the facebook groups I guarantee you there are just as many, if not more, people on other platforms saying the exact same things about us. And this is exactly why.

Have any of you published any peer-reviewed research papers in any major scientific publication? Petr has at least 8 credits as author across multiple journals, spanning decades. They don't just let anyone do that. Obviously no one should be treated as the end-all-be-all, but for god's sake at least show a basic approximation of respect.

 

[PetNcs]

@PetNcs I'm curious if you have examples of your practices in hydration and so forth in action. Do you have images of captive chameleons and their enclosures you could show us?

of course I do
I have shared a lot on other places, FB, YouTube and I have oublished and will publish
I am not here in front of the court, thizgh some tend to depict the situation like this

in a feiendly and cinstructive way, I am eeady to discuss and share whatever

not in this atmosphere

 

[nightanole]

Experts post caresheets based on good research
Says care sheets are a great starting point for noobies
It seems there is an issue with noobies attack any other care sheets that do not match perfectly with the care sheet they feel is gospel
The only other issue is if experts start saying other experts care sheets are wrong


If people are on veiled generation 3+, they are not going to throw 10-15 years of know how out the window and run with the latest post on the internet. They know what works in their situation.

As an example, a veiled raised in Florida will have a completely different support environment than someone raising one in Montana. The Floridian person is monitoring air conditioning and air flow, not much in terms of humidity. However the Montana folk are monitoring heat and humidity. Both of these people will be making minor compromises based on what they can provide. No one will simulate yemen perfectly all year around, some times it will be too hot, or too humid, or too cold etc. As for me, i can not provide 100% humidity at night during the winter, without a large build up of mold. Others might have problems providing less than 50% humidity during the day.

 

[PetNcs]

It is so embarrassing the way some of you talk about Petr.

Even if you disagree with or question some of the things he says, that does NOT give you the green light to question his character (see words like "eccentric," "close-minded", etc.) and essentially subtweet about him, leaving it to him to find this discussion of him in the first place. You probably only comment on "eccentricity" because English isn't his first language - not a good look, so let's go ahead and strike that from future conversation.

As much as people here like to s*** on the facebook groups I guarantee you there are just as many, if not more, people on other platforms saying the exact same things about us. And this is exactly why.

Have any of you published any peer-reviewed research papers in any major scientific publication? Petr has at least 8 credits as author across multiple journals, spanning decades. They don't just let anyone do that. Obviously no one should be treated as the end-all-be-all, but for god's sake at least show a basic approximation of respect.

Thank you to bring culture inti that conversation