Another Day sleeping post, he seemed really healthy 3 days ago!

[BryanP]

He ate his meal on Monday of 5 Dubias and then on Friday I went to feed him again and I noticed he more or less ignored his food.

Yesterday morning I noticed he was not really moving around and caught him sleeping mid day but no tail curl just eyes closed.

Today he seems even worse off as he's basically been not moving at all unless I bother him.

I took him outside this morning right at lights on for some fresh daylight and he seemed weak but not terribly. He would hold on fine if inverted but generally not reacting like od expect for a chameleon who gets handled very minimally.

Now for the details on his husbandry.

Chameleon is 2 years old, Hatch date of may/21and I got him oct/2021

*4'x2'x2' hybrid enclosure
*6% Arcadia and Arcadia fixture - just changed the bulb yesterday, was 14months old but I have and use a solar meter
*I use a govee small sensor on his basking branch, 92degrees max
*I use a govee digital meter for his enclosure, max is 80f, I know that's a tad high but it's also in the middle of the enclosure and we are in the middle summer here in Southern California
*Mistking mister takes care of humidity and I have it go for 30seconds when lights on, 6pm,10pm, 90seconds at 9am, and 15seconds at 8pm and 3am.
*humidity is also measured with the govee and my monthly average is 60% RH
*feeding is 2x a week 5-8 med/large DiBiase gut loaded with bug burger and cricket cracked. I dust (probably heavier than I should have some recent searches) with repashy Lod at every feeding. Kamerflaug, who I got my guy from, recommended that but I know it's a area for debate.

Never had a fecal done and now that I want to do one I can't get a fresh sample.

Soonest a vet in the area can see me is Monday so I've booked that.

Also posting here for some discussion/reassurance.

 

[MissSkittles]

Do you have a current pic of him?

 

[BryanP]

Keep in mind he is just hanging out and when he moves and such he does not look this thin. I promise I don't under feed him

 

[CalamityCrow]

Do you have any pictures of the cham?

From your husbandry two things stand out to me: his basking branch is too hot. Really you don't want temps above 80-85, so he might be a bit too warm especially with how hot it's been.
The second is the supplement - repashy plus lod is a multivitamin that should only be given once every two weeks, with a light dusting. Every feeding outside of that, it should be phos-free calcium without D3. It's possible your guy has had too much in the way of vitamins, which are fat-soluble, and his system has finally become a bit overwhelmed by it. You're correct in that your feeders should NOT look like powdered donuts.

I'm not sure what's in cricket crack... Your feeders might be getting to much in the way of Vitamin A and/or D3 as well, but I can't say for sure.

You're right that his enclosure at 80 is a bit high. Does it cool down at night? Do you have good airflow/chimney effect in the cage? Does it dry out completely after the mistings? I am concerned that maybe he's started an RI with those temperatures and that humidity. Do you hear any popping/crackling from him? Does he seem to have a lot of mucus in his mouth when he opens it?

 

[CalamityCrow]

Keep in mind he is just hanging out and when he moves and such he does not look this thin. I promise I don't under feed him

He seems very underweight - his casque is a good way to tell, and it's not got any meat to it at all. His cheeks are very thin too. I'd definitely get a fecal done when you can. If he's eating a lot and still looks like that, he could be suffering parasites too.

 

[MissSkittles]

My concern would be for feeding exclusively dubia. While like many things, it’s been debated here before, I am still hearing that a diet too rich in roaches can lead to gout. While he may not be showing any joint swelling or obvious and classic gout symptoms, he could be having some kidney problems. Along with all else that has been said, getting some basic labs is definitely advised.

 

[BryanP]

Do you have any pictures of the cham?

From your husbandry two things stand out to me: his basking branch is too hot. Really you don't want temps above 80-85, so he might be a bit too warm especially with how hot it's been.
The second is the supplement - repashy plus lod is a multivitamin that should only be given once every two weeks, with a light dusting. Every feeding outside of that, it should be phos-free calcium without D3. It's possible your guy has had too much in the way of vitamins, which are fat-soluble, and his system has finally become a bit overwhelmed by it. You're correct in that your feeders should NOT look like powdered donuts.

I'm not sure what's in cricket crack... Your feeders might be getting to much in the way of Vitamin A and/or D3 as well, but I can't say for sure.

You're right that his enclosure at 80 is a bit high. Does it cool down at night? Do you have good airflow/chimney effect in the cage? Does it dry out completely after the mistings? I am concerned that maybe he's started an RI with those temperatures and that humidity. Do you hear any popping/crackling from him? Does he seem to have a lot of mucus in his mouth when he opens it?

All good observations
I've had other reptiles that have had an RI and I don't see any symptoms of this.

it does dry out, the floor does not have standing water and there is decent airflow.

I just changed the batteries in the govee so it reset all my data to share but lows this week overnight were in the low 60s

Is this recoverable? He just shed probably last month so I'm suprised by him being under weight but shedding may not be an indication of good healthy weight

 

[BryanP]

My concern would be for feeding exclusively dubia. While like many things, it’s been debated here before, I am still hearing that a diet too rich in roaches can lead to gout. While he may not be showing any joint swelling or obvious and classic gout symptoms, he could be having some kidney problems. Along with all else that has been said, getting some basic labs is definitely advised.

I'd say yeah, his staple is dubias with the occasional horn worms (while they stay small enough) and BSFL but those both typically last a week and then will be 100% dubia for awhile.

 

[CalamityCrow]

All good observations
I've had other reptiles that have had an RI and I don't see any symptoms of this.

it does dry out, the floor does not have standing water and there is decent airflow.

I just changed the batteries in the govee so it reset all my data to share but lows this week overnight were in the low 60s

Is this recoverable? He just shed probably last month so I'm suprised by him being under weight but shedding may not be an indication of good healthy weight

Okay awesome, good temps on the lows, and I'm glad the cage dries out between mistings - RI is likely not your issue then.

As far as supplementation issues, I'd stop the LoD for at least month or two to let his body process what he's already got, and stick to plain calcium powder in the meantime. Fat-soluble vitamins like that can take a while to work their way out of a reptile's body.

A shed doesn't necessarily mean he's not underweight. It seems like for one reason or another he's not feeling well. A vet trip is something I'd DEFINITELY recommend. If it's not an RI, or gout like mentioned above (it reminds me I should vary my feeders more often than I do, I'm mainly a dubia feeder as well, with BSFL and the occasional hornworm), him being pretty darn skinny eating that many bugs a week COULD point to parasites. The only way to know is bloodwork and a fecal. Do you have a chameleon-familiar vet that you've used before?

 

[MissSkittles]

Is this recoverable? He just shed probably last month so I'm suprised by him being under weight but shedding may not be an indication of good healthy weight

It doesn’t take long at all for a chameleon to go from looking robust and healthy to looking emaciated and dehydrated. When we see them every day, it’s harder for us to recognize any changes unti, they become quite drastic and obvious.

 

[BryanP]

Okay awesome, good temps on the lows, and I'm glad the cage dries out between mistings - RI is likely not your issue then.

As far as supplementation issues, I'd stop the LoD for at least month or two to let his body process what he's already got, and stick to plain calcium powder in the meantime. Fat-soluble vitamins like that can take a while to work their way out of a reptile's body.

A shed doesn't necessarily mean he's not underweight. It seems like for one reason or another he's not feeling well. A vet trip is something I'd DEFINITELY recommend. If it's not an RI, or gout like mentioned above (it reminds me I should vary my feeders more often than I do, I'm mainly a dubia feeder as well, with BSFL and the occasional hornworm), him being pretty darn skinny eating that many bugs a week COULD point to parasites. The only way to know is bloodwork and a fecal. Do you have a chameleon-familiar vet that you've used before?

I just bought Arcadia earthpro Ca so when that comes I will do that exclusively for a month or so.

I will try to see if I can get in earlier to the vet.

 

[BryanP]

It doesn’t take long at all for a chameleon to go from looking robust and healthy to looking emaciated and dehydrated. When we see them every day, it’s harder for us to recognize any changes unti, they become quite drastic and obvious.

Yeah I know what you mean.

Ugh, I hate this, i thought I was killing it with my husbandry not ACTUALLY kill it. Haha

Sorry, a moment of humor In a time of struggle

 

[CalamityCrow]

Yeah I know what you mean.

Ugh, I hate this, i thought I was killing it with my husbandry not ACTUALLY kill it. Haha

Sorry, a moment of humor In a time of struggle

Lol you got a laugh out of me.

You're doing the right thing in trying to sort it out though! Good vibes and prayers that you can figure out what's ailing your little man and get him feeling better.

 

[Camiezone]

Hey. Sorry to see your little man isn't feeling super great. I'm also in so ca. Corona actually. I can hook u up w a few herb vets info, if u need. I agree w everyone, fecal test is prob best. Have u tried silkworms or hornworms? I prob mist on the heavier side. And fog every night, but mine get misted 3 times while awake for 1.30 mins. In this heat. My enclosures are also extremely huge, so only portion of them get wet. I've never had any of them get sick. As long as you have great air movement.

 

[Camiezone]

Your enclosure looks really nice, if u added some live plants Up top and some more different thickness branches, it would be killer. (My 2 cents)

 

[Camiezone]

 

[BryanP]

Well the 6pm misting went off and he seemed to react positively to that, he moved and seemed alert to the drops and went and drank. I've seen him drink before so this is not abnormal so we left for some errands and then we got back an hour later and he was just hanging by his hind legs and tail with his front legs down... I assumed he was dead... so I touched him and he moved
So I tried to pick him up to put him in a safer place before the lights went off and he kinda got mad at me and opened his mouth, nothing seemed out of the norm there either in terms of visually.

Anyways... not how I wanted to see him when I got home... fingers crossed he makes
It overnight and I can hyperfocus on him again tomorrow.
At least I work from home so I can watch him sleep all day

 

[BryanP]

Well good news is he's still alive but didn't move from the spot I put him in last night.

before he settled on a spot he did get himself into that virticle hanging position 2 more
Times and I moved him every time.
Not sure if that is an indicator of anything or not

This morning I turned the lights on 30min early so I could observe him and after an hour he didn't move so I moved him
Up near the basking area to hopefully warm him up and encourage some type of warming/moving activity.

He did seem stronger today than yesterday though as he gripped harder while I was
Moving him.

Could be vitamin toxicity if I was ODing him on Vit A and D.

Could also explain the rapid onset but does not explain the low weight... although upon reflection I'm starting to blame
Myself and possibly not gut loading my bugs as well as I could.

 

[ChamelaChameleon]

Well good news is he's still alive but didn't move from the spot I put him in last night.

before he settled on a spot he did get himself into that virticle hanging position 2 more
Times and I moved him every time.
Not sure if that is an indicator of anything or not

This morning I turned the lights on 30min early so I could observe him and after an hour he didn't move so I moved him
Up near the basking area to hopefully warm him up and encourage some type of warming/moving activity.

He did seem stronger today than yesterday though as he gripped harder while I was
Moving him.

Could be vitamin toxicity if I was ODing him on Vit A and D.

Could also explain the rapid onset but does not explain the low weight... although upon reflection I'm starting to blame
Myself and possibly not gut loading my bugs as well as I could.

Variety- have you tried grasshoppers? They are really easy to keep, don't require water and easy to gut load. They are like Dubia in that they live a long time with minimal care. My guy loves grasshoppers more than hornworms. I feed him 3 grasshoppers and 1 hornworm 3 times a week. He may or may not eat the hornworn but the grasshoppers are a goner!

 

[Beman]

He ate his meal on Monday of 5 Dubias and then on Friday I went to feed him again and I noticed he more or less ignored his food.

Yesterday morning I noticed he was not really moving around and caught him sleeping mid day but no tail curl just eyes closed.

Today he seems even worse off as he's basically been not moving at all unless I bother him.

I took him outside this morning right at lights on for some fresh daylight and he seemed weak but not terribly. He would hold on fine if inverted but generally not reacting like od expect for a chameleon who gets handled very minimally.

Now for the details on his husbandry.

Chameleon is 2 years old, Hatch date of may/21and I got him oct/2021

*4'x2'x2' hybrid enclosure
*6% Arcadia and Arcadia fixture - just changed the bulb yesterday, was 14months old but I have and use a solar meter
*I use a govee small sensor on his basking branch, 92degrees max
*I use a govee digital meter for his enclosure, max is 80f, I know that's a tad high but it's also in the middle of the enclosure and we are in the middle summer here in Southern California
*Mistking mister takes care of humidity and I have it go for 30seconds when lights on, 6pm,10pm, 90seconds at 9am, and 15seconds at 8pm and 3am.
*humidity is also measured with the govee and my monthly average is 60% RH
*feeding is 2x a week 5-8 med/large DiBiase gut loaded with bug burger and cricket cracked. I dust (probably heavier than I should have some recent searches) with repashy Lod at every feeding. Kamerflaug, who I got my guy from, recommended that but I know it's a area for debate.

Never had a fecal done and now that I want to do one I can't get a fresh sample.

Soonest a vet in the area can see me is Monday so I've booked that.

Also posting here for some discussion/reassurance.

Hey there. This is what I see....

Way too hot ambient and basking. Basking should be 80-85 and ambient should be low 70's. Room air conditioner is often needed in summers to keep temps where they should be.

Cricket crack is higher in protein at 16%. Which means this is going to cause more uric acid in roaches. This in turn will be hard for your chameleon to process out of his body especially if you are feeding roaches that are larger and have been on this diet for a while. Bug burger is lower and within limits for roaches at 13%.

Repashy LOD is used by kammerflage. But the issue is they used this with T8 lighting not T5HO. T8 has a lower uvi output then our T5HO do. We have seen where this causes an extreme issue for some chams being fed LOD at every feeding. And if you are heavy handed with the supplement it will be even more that he is storing in his tissues of A and D3. This can cause other issues as well as D3 toxicity.

Hopefully you have a dripper because the length of your mistings are extremely short to provide drinking opportunities. Most require 2 minutes just to trigger a drinking response.


I would get the room cooled down that he is in. Add a dripper to drip during the day if you do not have one. Remove the cricket crack from the dubia diet. And only use the Repashy LOD 2 times a month say the 1st and the 15th. Get a plain calcium without D3 for all other feedings. YOu want to go really lightly on your supplement coating. It should not be heavy at all just a dusting. I would get a fecal done just to rule out parasite issues.