50/50 cross breed Questions

[Elizadolots]

One interesting fact is that alot of these mixed locales end up going to Petstores where they are marked up to a price higher than a pure locale and often sold as a pure locale.

I for one like that they are a bit "pricy". In my mind I like to think it makes people a bit more serious about jumping into such a reptile with higher care needs.

Well, it's never right for a breeder or store to lie or give out bad information. However, that's a reflection on the breeder or store, not the animal.

Are panthers really much harder to care for than the Rudis and Jacksons I can buy for well under $100?

 

[Julirs]

Well, it's never right for a breeder or store to lie or give out bad information. However, that's a reflection on the breeder or store, not the animal.

Are panthers really much harder to care for than the Rudis and Jacksons I can buy for well under $100?

It doesn't matter what the reflection is, the fact is that it happens.

Rudis and Jacksons are harder to care for then Panthers. I like the fact that all chameleons are not $10.00 lizards. Most people are not prepared or equipped to care for them. This is certainly an animal that fits a small percentage of the populations ability and lifestyle.

 

[sandrachameleon]

Pet stores do bad things. And individual people sell animals without fully disclosure (through ignorance or lack of moral care).

Luckily, anyone who wants a pure bred animal, and who really cares strongly about bloodlines and such, is unlikely to buy from a pet store. They will have carefully researched the lineage of the animal, and will have choosen a reputable breeder. And they will pay more.

And those people who just want a pet lizard, who think all chameleons are kewl regardless of their local or mixed heritage, they will buy whatever is available, quite possibly at a lesser price.

 

[Montium]

You misunderstand AKC registration. Any litter can be registered, but Laberadoodles are not RECOGNIZED as a pure breed by the AKC. Meaning you cannot show them, etc.

I could argue all day on what I feel is wrong in "dog-land" with all of the ridiculous crosses like the Puggle-which seems to have started all of this crazy mixing and naming. I do understand that accidents happen, but the rest of it is sooo profit driven and helps create and sustain puppy mills all over this country.

I am a FIRM believer in keeping animals pure. Backyard dog breeders discust me to the nth degree. Only the finest example of the breed should be bred to improve the breed and this includes health issues.

We cannot equate this to chameleons at this time. Chameleons have been kept and studied for a very short time. Genetic studies are few. Unlike the wacky designer dogs, mixed locale Panthers command a lower price in the market and females sold of unknown origin get into the breeding pool and futher muddy the lines of the pure locale.

Really? how exactly do think the various " breeds " came to be? They just showed up one day? They were cross bred and selectively bred to become the breed they are. I have a " pure bred " Cardigan Corgi, yet it's based on a Swedish Vallhund line whereas the Pembroke Corgi, is based on a Pomeranian, Schipperke line.

So what I am reading here is it was once ok to cross breed but only in the past and any new cross breeding is somehow a bad thing

 

[Elizadolots]

Really? how exactly do think the various " breeds " came to be? They just showed up one day? They were cross bred and selectively bred to become the breed they are. I have a " pure bred " Cardigan Corgi, yet it's based on a Swedish Vallhund line whereas the Pembroke Corgi, is based on a Pomeranian, Schipperke line.

So what I am reading here is it was once ok to cross breed but only in the past and any new cross breeding is somehow a bad thing

That's what they are saying, yes...it was fine and good in the past and we should preserve what they did and never, ever try to do anything like it ourselves....ever.

(note that this is more about dogs than chameleons...but still sort of about chameleons.)

 

[Julirs]

Really? how exactly do think the various " breeds " came to be? They just showed up one day? They were cross bred and selectively bred to become the breed they are. I have a " pure bred " Cardigan Corgi, yet it's based on a Swedish Vallhund line whereas the Pembroke Corgi, is based on a Pomeranian, Schipperke line.

So what I am reading here is it was once ok to cross breed but only in the past and any new cross breeding is somehow a bad thing

Yes-that is what I am saying. It is my opinion and shared by many others.

These stupid designer breeds of late are not based on creating a dog with purpose or function.

Backyard breeders make me sick, and shelters are full of dogs that only want a home and to love someone.

 

[Brad Ramsey]

Good thing they have all those walls up in Madagascar to keep the lines " clean " lol

^This is my favorite post on the thread.

I do not keep panthers, so my opinion doesn't really count ... but scientifically, F.pardalis is F. pardalis.
"A rose by any other name ....."

-Brad

 

[Elizadolots]

Were this discussion to devolve into "dog" breeds (as any reply I can make would do) , should it be restarted elsewhere? Or, should be just let the dog issue go with the understanding that there is considerable disagreement?

 

[Brad Ramsey]

Were this discussion to devolve into "dog" breeds (as any reply I can make would do) , should it be restarted elsewhere? Or, should be just let the dog issue go with the understanding that there is considerable disagreement?

I think we should try to keep it about chameleons on this thread.
The comparisons have been made.

-Brad

 

[Elizadolots]

That's what I thought. Thanks!

 

[SpinyFranky]

Yes-that is what I am saying. It is my opinion and shared by many others.

These stupid designer breeds of late are not based on creating a dog with purpose or function.

Backyard breeders make me sick, and shelters are full of dogs that only want a home and to love someone.

I agree with Julirs here.

Many of the dogs bred and selected in the past - that gave way to the variety of breeds in the present - were bred with purpose.

Most terriers were bred to hunt rats, and as breeders discovered and bred for variety within the species - eventually the lines separated, they are still "terriers" but they are a different breed, yet they still had a general purpose.

Today dogs are mixed for the same reason the OP wants to breed chameleon mixes, because its "kewl" and the possibilities are "endless", which are the wrong reasons to be breeding the animals.

In captivity you want to breed pure locales for health, coloration, size, e.t.c e.t.c. These become bloodlines that encompass hundreds of animals, and Im sure it leads to the breeders having great pride in their work.

To breed mixes, really serves no purpose - essentially you are just diluting the qualities and characteristics of the animals into something cheaper and more affordable to the mainstream pubic - which still barely has a clue as to chameleons are even available as pets.

As Julirs said, one of the benefits of the price is that ownership becomes more selective. And not to be the bad guy, but if you take notice - a good majority of all threads in the health forums about sick animals - is usually a guy who bought a veiled chameleon for 35-40 bucks ( or 80 + is he was suckered by the petstores ).

The "expense" of panthers is more likely to result in someone doing some quality research to see if the person can meet the needs of the animal - without disrupting his lifestyle. Many many and ill say it again, MANY veileds are an impulse buy. someone sees the word "chameleon" on the pet store window - and their eyes light up. The price isn't that bad ( compared to say a puppy, a cat, a horse, a panther chameleon.) and so they just buy it and take it home. They have no clue what UVA or UVB is and gutloading means "feed it mealworms" till the chams guy is full. Which is very very wrong - if you do not know how to take care of the animal, you should not be allowed to purchase the animal.

 

[SpinyFranky]

I think we should try to keep it about chameleons on this thread.
The comparisons have been made.

-Brad

Rada rada.... OK! that was my last comparison then.

 

[Brad Ramsey]

It's interesting to me that this discussion is only ever about pardalis.
You would think that if the idea of keeping locales pure in chameleons was so important it would be universal.
You never see debates about mixing locales of other species, ie: F. lateralis, F. oustaleti, etc.
So, it is purely about the hobby and what is worth more $$$ or is more desirable to us as keepers. As previously stated, nothing we do in captive breeding effects what is happening in the natural environment (save collecting WC animals, but that is another topic) so, basically, if you mix locales (colors) you are upsetting some keepers with purist ideals.
I do not believe that mixing locales creates sterility in subsequent generations or in any way effects the health of the offspring ... it's the same species.

-Brad

 

[Elizadolots]

Well...this is about chameleons...people seem to regard Veiled and Panthers as the only important species...people are all about keeping the price up so only the dedicated and true will purchase such an animal...meanwhile, I can (and have) strolled into local reptile stores and had the opportunity to buy Fischer's, Jacksons, and Rudis for far less than Panthers or Veield. I can go a few miles up the road and find "Graceful" chameleons for under $25.

The argument made here is that keeping the price high means the animals will not end up in the hands of irresponsible owners....how does the $19 Graceful chameleon work into that concept? Are they disposable? Do we not care about them?

Why is there a class system?

**edited to note that I was composing while Brad Ramsey posted***

 

[SpinyFranky]

It's interesting to me that this discussion is only ever about pardalis.
You would think that if the idea of keeping locales pure in chameleons was so important it would be universal.
You never see debates about mixing locales of other species, ie: F. lateralis, F. oustaleti, etc.
So, it is purely about the hobby and what is worth more $$$ or is more desirable to us as keepers. As previously stated, nothing we do in captive breeding effects what is happening in the natural environment (save collecting WC animals, but that is another topic) so, basically, if you mix locales (colors) you are upsetting some keepers with purist ideals.
I do not believe that mixing locales creates sterility in subsequent generations ... it's the same species.

-Brad

Brad - I think it may have to due with the availability of the animals in question. Panthers are everywhere, while F. Lateralis is still in the process of getting situated as CB, even WC shipments are not that easy to find. I think the same applies to F. Oustaleti, does it not?

Secondly - imagine you purchase say a "Nosy Faly" which currently run from $500 +. Now imagine that your "Nosy Faly" grows up and shows no coloration that it should - in fact you learn its not even "Nosy Faly" it is just part Faly.

That I would imagine is the main reasons breeders keep the locales pure in captivity, to avoid misleading sales, and ticked off customers. And it has happened before, everyone has head of it - females being sold as males, and Sambava babies being sold as Nosy Bes because the customer asked for one. Its dishonest practices, and while sometimes it can happen by accident, I think breeders promote the purity of the locales to keep such accidents from becoming common.

A prime example is the Nosy Be, which used to just be the "Nosy Be", but after so many "accidents" in which the animals in question turned out to not be Nosy Be, or to just be partially Nosy Be, sellers had the rename them "true blue Nosy Be" in order for sales to rise and customers to have faith.

In return, the price for a REAL Nosy Be rose dramatically... all due to mix breeding, Accidental or Intentional.

 

[Brad Ramsey]

Well...this is about chameleons...people seem to regard Veiled and Panthers as the only important species...people are all about keeping the price up so only the dedicated and true will purchase such an animal...meanwhile, I can (and have) strolled into local reptile stores and had the opportunity to buy Fischer's, Jacksons, and Rudis for far less than Panthers or Veield. I can go a few miles up the road and find "Graceful" chameleons for under $25.

The argument made here is that keeping the price high means the animals will not end up in the hands of irresponsible owners....how does the $19 Graceful chameleon work into that concept? Are they disposable? Do we not care about them?

Why is there a class system?

**edited to note that I was composing while Brad Ramsey posted***

If you talk to big importers or distributors of livestock they will refer to senegals, gracefuls and the like as "trash".
They aren't showy or colorful, they buy them for pennies and make very little money off of them or don't bother with them at all.
So, yes, sadly they are disposable and very few people try to breed them or work with them for the same reason, hard to dump ... no $$$.

-Brad

 

[Julirs]

Yes-it is true and very sad that the WC species are inexpensive and often die in the hands of the inexperienced.
You will not find CB of these more common WC species at cheap prices, in fact many of the cheap WC species are difficult to breed and extremely difficult to find CB.

 

[SpinyFranky]

Well...this is about chameleons...people seem to regard Veiled and Panthers as the only important species...people are all about keeping the price up so only the dedicated and true will purchase such an animal...meanwhile, I can (and have) strolled into local reptile stores and had the opportunity to buy Fischer's, Jacksons, and Rudis for far less than Panthers or Veield. I can go a few miles up the road and find "Graceful" chameleons for under $25.

The argument made here is that keeping the price high means the animals will not end up in the hands of irresponsible owners....how does the $19 Graceful chameleon work into that concept? Are they disposable? Do we not care about them?

Why is there a class system?

**edited to note that I was composing while Brad Ramsey posted***

Eliza,

I think it mainly has to do that any of the chameleons you mentioned are rarely CB, at least the ones sold in the pet stores. Any panther you buy, is usually CB, in fact its sometimes "harder" - i.e more looking and inquiring involved" to get WC panthers than CB ones.

any CB animal will have more value than a WC one of the same species, and the fact that most of the animals you listed are not protected by Cites or any other form or wildlife protection or import limitations, and can thus be picked in any quantity desired - also influences the end cost of the animal.

However I will admit that it becomes apparent that there indeed exists a "class system" within pets. However the same exists with the cars you drive, the jobs we work, the neighborhoods we live in, and the food we eat. So im not sure why you would expect this situation to be any different.

 

[Brad Ramsey]

.
However I will admit that it becomes apparent that there indeed exists a "class system" within pets. However the same exists with the cars you drive, the jobs we work, the neighborhoods we live in, and the food we eat. So im not sure why you would expect this situation to be any different.

Cars, jobs and neighborhoods are not living creatures.
Chameleons aren't really a status symbol ... I do expect the situation to be different.
Unfortunately the attractive kids win again! Panthers are undeniably beautiful and are therefore considered more valuable CB or not.

-Brad

 

[sandrachameleon]

.....
I do not believe that mixing locales creates sterility in subsequent generations or in any way effects the health of the offspring ... it's the same species.

That's what I was thinking to.