50/50 cross breed Questions

Juxocyde

Juxocyde

New Member
I recently purchased a 50/50 cross breed ambilobe/ambanja from screameleons and i was interested if anyone knew of any problems or issues people have with cross breeds, i plan on getting 2 more 50/50 Ambanja/Ambilobe cross breeds to potentially breed as well to in a way keep the 50/50 going on in the gene pool. Is there any issues associated with this idea and if there is please let me know if im doing a horrible idea or if it is a decent project idea. The one i have right now is located on this page if you all would like to take a look at him. feedback would be greatly appreciated. Thanks

http://www.screameleons.com/site/ItemID__3741/3365/DesktopDefault.aspx?ItemID=3741&tabid=3365

The little guys name is Pai Mei
 
I am doing the same thing..

Only be concerned that will it indeed be harder to sell the females when the time comes and the the males will be for a lower price (most of the time)

GL
 
Stick to pure breds, crosses look cool but they may hurt any pure locale if somehow one was mislabeled and breed with something it shouldnt have, then was pitched off as something that its not, and the locale is lost. If you want crosses dont breed them, just buy males and enjoy them for what they are.
 
Juxocyde said:
I recently purchased a 50/50 cross breed ambilobe/ambanja from screameleons and i was interested if anyone knew of any problems or issues people have with cross breeds, i plan on getting 2 more 50/50 Ambanja/Ambilobe cross breeds to potentially breed as well to in a way keep the 50/50 going on in the gene pool. Is there any issues associated with this idea and if there is please let me know if im doing a horrible idea or if it is a decent project idea. The one i have right now is located on this page if you all would like to take a look at him. feedback would be greatly appreciated. Thanks

http://www.screameleons.com/site/ItemID__3741/3365/DesktopDefault.aspx?ItemID=3741&tabid=3365

The little guys name is Pai Mei
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Is keeping this particular combination of traits your main reason to breed crosses? If so, I'm not sure it will end up doing what you want over the long term (50/50 bred to other 50/50 crosses of the same genetic line will eventually lead to less genetic variation as recessives get overshadowed or eliminated I think). If you want to breed cross to cross because of their genetic diversity and hybrid vigor you'd have to introduce different bloodlines every so often. I'm certainly no expert on panther genetics so don't have a clue how closely related the locales are genetically. I'm not sure anyone does. We don't have genome maps for chams. If you happen to like the particular characteristics of this 50/50 cross and want to enhance them no real reason not to try it for a few generations. Document both traits you like and traits you don't plan on. They will show up eventually. Just be sure you keep records of the bloodlines so you represent them accurately. Its the careless opportunistic breeding that gets the hobby in trouble.
 
cross breading isnt so bad....

look at dogs... a poodle and a golden retriever.... Golden Doodle...

I hate em myself however, people love em....
 
ChamFreak said:
cross breading isnt so bad....

look at dogs... a poodle and a golden retriever.... Golden Doodle...

I hate em myself however, people love em....
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thats what i was thinking as well, i mean its not like ambanja and ambilobe are completely different when it comes to appearances, its not like im going for totally different colors and trying a nosy with the s named one thats prodominantly red, im keeping it in a relitively stable locales. Not to mention the way i think it might come out is that i may have a few 50/50s still, as well as a few 25/75 and 75/25 and possible 100 of one or the other which could make some interesting morphs, but i will still be selling them as 50/50 on both sides of the tree so the customer knows what he is getting. not to mention screameleons have great records of their chameleons they sell so i would be able to date them back to the original 100 that started the cross in the first place. I think its a neat little experiment that could possibly come out with some neat outcome, who knows, ambanja and ambilobe may be closer relative than we think.
 
Im not sure how true it is... but I will give you all the information you will need to verify my source.

Dorval,Connie. 2006. Chameleons In Captivity. ECO herpetological publishing and distribution. Lansing, MI

and I quote from page 47:

"It has been noted on many occasions that crossing panther chameleons from two different locals (which will create hybrid coloration) will produce mules or sterile animals. I do believe there is truth to this theory, though I suspect it doesn't appear prominently until the second generation"

Not sure how thats gonna affect you and your project mate. Unless you make it clear to any buyer that your chams are all potentially sterile. :(.

Then again... the book is from 2006... maybe its been disproved.

S.F
 
plus wouldnt that be a way of preventing further "polution" of the pure gene pool that everyone is worried about, if you think about it many people are not out to breed their chameleons and first time chameleon owners would really be able to appreciate the vast coloration that could be achieved by cross breeds that wouldnt strike their interests otherwise, im not looking at starting a rediculous franchise of polluting a perfectly good species, im more focused at bringing that spark that chameleons have to people that didnt see interest originally. getting a pure breed you know basically what it will eventually look like, but a hybrid tends to have a mystery that is just waiting to be discovered.
 
"Hybrids are like a box of chocolate, you never know what your going to get"

"pure breeds is looking at the back of the box and having expectations for what awaits you"
 
ChamFreak said:
look at Kammerflage Kreations... I think they disprove that theroy
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From what I saw at the Glance, all the chameleons are hybrids - from pure parents. Of course there is the one that is 12% nosy be 24% Sambava 30% Ambilobe and yada yada.... but the point was the quote said Males would be sterile - not females. Its perfectly possible that they took a 50/50% Ambilobe/Nosy Be female and mixed it with a pure Sambava male - which yes, would produce clutches that included Sambava, Ambilobe, and Nosy Be. However they made no mention of any male crosses being sires.

So no, I do not think they disproved it at all. I think you need to read a little more before being so quick to post. ;)

Not knocking you, But I was looking for an actual study result or other hard evidence that disproves the writers evidence... since he himself said to be breeding many of the panther locales - enough that he could write a book that is included in most chameleon care kits.

I find it funny that you just give a website with no credentials to disprove this mans work, and treat it like its jesus to boot.

Either way, as others have said - be careful with your breeding, and always remain honest. I have a mix female that I love to death, but I would never consider breeding her.
 
Juxocyde said:
"Hybrids are like a box of chocolate, you never know what your going to get"

"pure breeds is looking at the back of the box and having expectations for what awaits you"
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Im sorry, but that last quote was just silly.

Mixing chameleons, you still know you are limited to a variety of options. Pure breeds still limit you - its essentially the same thing

Mix a Sambava and a Nosy Be - so you might get a chameleon thats blue with red or orange baring when flared up - guess what... thats just like an Ambanja.

Sure, you will have diversity - but saying that you are creating a new panther species to excite people into the world of chameleons, sounds ridiculous. It will always be just an experiment, no one has the right to mess with nature like that. People buy Nosy Be babies from WC females, then get pissed as hell when its not "true blue". The market is demanding pure breeds at the moment, and thats not likely to change.

Sure Kammers will charge you a fortune for the animal, even though its a mix - but that fortune is because of their reputation and the care given to their animals, as well as the sires and dams reputation.

Porsche charges 100,000 for the Cayenne Turbo - but only because it has the reputation. But you think Chevy would ever be any to sell a car for 100,000? they would get laughed at so hard....

Price does not always dictate enthusiasm, originality, or anything else for that matter - usually its just quality. No one will pay you a lot of money for a half breed, simply because a pure breed is of better quality.

But for pure enjoyment - have at it. It sounds fun, I admit - but the prospect of raising those babies and then selling them for less than 1/3 of what a pure panther would go for - ruins any fun I would have. Especially if you have read Julirs post about the cost of raising juvis.
 
Just a question: aren't these "local" animals the result of geographical separation? Are they really that genetically different? When I think of a hybrid, I think of animals that are separated by a branch or two on the genetic tree (like a Horse and a Zebra or a Lion and a Tiger, that's where you get your sterile progeny). Are these animals this disparate?

This would seem even less of a stretch than say breeding a bottle nosed dolphin to an Orca. (That gets you a viable breeding animal). But, maybe I'm just missing something.
 
Elizadolots said:
Just a question: aren't these "local" animals the result of geographical separation? Are they really that genetically different? When I think of a hybrid, I think of animals that are separated by a branch or two on the genetic tree (like a Horse and a Zebra or a Lion and a Tiger, that's where you get your sterile progeny). Are these animals this disparate?

This would seem even less of a stretch than say breeding a bottle nosed dolphin to an Orca. (That gets you a viable breeding animal). But, maybe I'm just missing something.
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I do not think that anyone has actually mapped out the genetic diversity of the locales of Pardalis. But I think its safe to assume there is some truth in your theory, they are related enough I would think that they are all the same thing. Panther chameleons. For some reason Locale acts as an indicator to coloration.

Mixing a Lion with a Tiger and getting a Liger - that is hybrid reproduction. Mixing a Sambava with Nosy be is like mixing up your childhood paint set - not sure what colors your gonna get, but no one is gonna buy it either way. We all want the perfect paint set.

Now mixing a veiled and a panther which through natural means is likely impossible (even the Liger was through artificial insemination) would be a true hybrid, and one that would garner interest and inquiries. Mixing panthers is not.

Good point Eliza. :)
 
Well I will be attempting to breed a morph 2nd generation with a pure Ambilobe so we will see, I am not trying to ruin his work by the way but if you havent noticed... I have been a member on this site (not active) for 5 years and 5 years ago they had morphs so I thought to myself, it must be possible.

I dont see it being a problem to sell them, I think you will yes get less money but not enough to be a loss.. atleast thats my thoughts...
 
"im more focused at bringing that spark that chameleons have to people that didnt see interest originally. getting a pure breed you know basically what it will eventually look like, but a hybrid tends to have a mystery that is just waiting to be discovered.
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if you have no interest in a pure bred and would need to be enticed by the fact that you don't know how it will turn out, you're not ready to be a cham owner IMO. Chams really shouldn't be treated like the mystery Airhead. i would also think that crossing locales should be left to experienced breeders.
 
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