50/50 cross breed Questions
- Thread starter Juxocyde
- Start date
Juxocyde
New Member
very good point you made, couldnt of said it better myself, if anything people with this interest in gaining more knowledge of the species and a better understanding have better moral standing than someone out for profit and financial gain of sticking to what sells as opposed to exploring the possibilities of what could be
Juxocyde
New Member
why do people keep using cars as examples in refrence of chameleons
a car will either get you from point A to point B, you can spend alot to get there or spend less and still arrive at the same place....
these are living animials
your supposed to be on my side, i used cars cause it was used earlier in the post, im trying to stick to what people know. a labradoodle, chaweenie, puggle, miniture pinscher, and a ton of other dogs that are viewed by the american kennel club are actually products of cross breeding dogs to get the dog with the personality and ability to work for them. especially hunting dogs and working dogs who were cross bred to get the physical and personality features needed for the specific purpose
hope that was a better analogy
Elizadolots
New Member
This has been my thread...first a smiley face and now a "good points"...
I know that comparing reptiles to mammals is wrong, but in this case, I think it's acceptable.
Dogs.
I would say "enough said" but maybe some wouldn't understand. Dogs have been bred extensively for specific purposes. The result has been specifically defined breeds. However, all those breeds can breed with others. If someone helps hold the little guy up, a chihuahua and a golden retriever could come together to create a GoldenChi*.
I own a dog that is now considered a hybrid...at the time we bought him, he was a "surprise mix"...he's 1/4 Boston Terrior, 3/4 Pug. The breeder was so embarrassed that her mother's Boston got away and did the deed with one of her prized pug females. But, she thought she would see what happened if she bred those pups to her pure pugs...that's my dog.
Was the process that led to me getting my dog bad, evil, wrong? No...in fact, when Tango was about 3, I came home, picked him up and said "this is a BUG!". The pug/boston combination had found an audience and breeders were creating them deliberately...
Just about all dog breeds are the result of controlled breeding of dogs from different "breeds"...
I'd wager the situation with veiled chameleons is not that different.
*I made that up.
I know that comparing reptiles to mammals is wrong, but in this case, I think it's acceptable.
Dogs.
I would say "enough said" but maybe some wouldn't understand. Dogs have been bred extensively for specific purposes. The result has been specifically defined breeds. However, all those breeds can breed with others. If someone helps hold the little guy up, a chihuahua and a golden retriever could come together to create a GoldenChi*.
I own a dog that is now considered a hybrid...at the time we bought him, he was a "surprise mix"...he's 1/4 Boston Terrior, 3/4 Pug. The breeder was so embarrassed that her mother's Boston got away and did the deed with one of her prized pug females. But, she thought she would see what happened if she bred those pups to her pure pugs...that's my dog.
Was the process that led to me getting my dog bad, evil, wrong? No...in fact, when Tango was about 3, I came home, picked him up and said "this is a BUG!". The pug/boston combination had found an audience and breeders were creating them deliberately...
Just about all dog breeds are the result of controlled breeding of dogs from different "breeds"...
I'd wager the situation with veiled chameleons is not that different.
*I made that up.
ChamFreak
Avid Member
good point.. and to top it off, there are certian dogs like the laberdoodle* that actually have AKC papers and its a hybrid.
I just wanted to point out... dont you think eventually, chameleons will migrate or be placed by man in the wild where the pure bloodlines will eventually be mixed in the wild?
one day, someone will buy a WC hybrid.. mark my words...(have they already?)
I just wanted to point out... dont you think eventually, chameleons will migrate or be placed by man in the wild where the pure bloodlines will eventually be mixed in the wild?
one day, someone will buy a WC hybrid.. mark my words...(have they already?)
SpinyFranky
New Member
Migration is an instinct.... not some "Oh I think ill take a trip" gut feeling the animal can just randomly have. Its genetically integrated for survival.
The pure WC bloodlines are mainly pure, however there is some mixing in the wild. People have purchased babies from WC nosy be females and the babies come out colorful. God knows who the sire was, but it still happened.
The point is an Ambanja is an Ambanja, as is an Ambilobe, a Sambava, a Nosy be, Nosy Mitsio, Nosy Faly, Anks - they are all individual locales of the panther species.
When you take one and mix it with another, you blend the lines between them - keep doing this and the lines disappear - eventually you wind up taking two off the list and replacing it with just one. Sure its SHINY and NEW, but is it worth essentially destroying the differences between the two in the first place? No.
God has already made the species varied enough already. Dogs came from one ancestor, wolves. You domesticated the wolf ( just one ) and created the dog (just one) then you bred for differences which eventually leads to the creation of multiples with variety as the main trait.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/2498669.stm
what you are doing with chameleons is opposite - you are taking an already greatly varied animal and breeding them into a combination that will end with a singular variety of the panther.
So, yes Eliza - comparing dogs and chameleon is silly. But I laughed really hard at the Golden Chi.
Julirs
New Member
You misunderstand AKC registration. Any litter can be registered, but Laberadoodles are not RECOGNIZED as a pure breed by the AKC. Meaning you cannot show them, etc.
I could argue all day on what I feel is wrong in "dog-land" with all of the ridiculous crosses like the Puggle-which seems to have started all of this crazy mixing and naming. I do understand that accidents happen, but the rest of it is sooo profit driven and helps create and sustain puppy mills all over this country.
I am a FIRM believer in keeping animals pure. Backyard dog breeders discust me to the nth degree. Only the finest example of the breed should be bred to improve the breed and this includes health issues.
We cannot equate this to chameleons at this time. Chameleons have been kept and studied for a very short time. Genetic studies are few. Unlike the wacky designer dogs, mixed locale Panthers command a lower price in the market and females sold of unknown origin get into the breeding pool and futher muddy the lines of the pure locale.
sandrachameleon
Chameleon Enthusiast
Hi
I wont be reading all the responses because I know that there are likely a few people bashing the whole idea of hybrids. If you do a search on this forum on the word "Hybrid" or "Cross" you'll find all the opinions you could ever want, from many perspectives.
What I can say for sure is that my hybrid is very handsome, very healthy, and he has mated successfully with a female and fertilized eggs. To date I have had no trouble finding homes for the offspring, Male or female - but the price for hybrids is much less than what I get for my pure breeds.
edit: pure local breeding is a much "safer" way to go in terms of sales, as there is more demand and as you are better able to say what the offspring will look like. There is an element of risk with hybrids. If you do breed hybrids, be very sure that buyers of the offspring are aware that they are buying crosses.
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SpinyFranky
New Member
Sandra, is your cross male first or second generation cross? The author states he believes the males only become sterile second generation and beyond. Lets see, maybe you can disprove it
Either way...
@ Julirs.... thank god someone chimed in who understands the plight.
dmaizer
Avid Member
Sandra, is your cross male first or second generation cross? The author states he believes the males only become sterile second generation and beyond. Lets see, maybe you can disprove it
Either way...
@ Julirs.... thank god someone chimed in who understands the plight.
OK lets say that the author is correct, and the second generation is sterile, what will you do with all the males????? you didn't think about that did you?????
RPCV
Avid Member
Sandra, is your cross male first or second generation cross? The author states he believes the males only become sterile second generation and beyond. Lets see, maybe you can disprove it
Either way...
@ Julirs.... thank god someone chimed in who understands the plight.
I normally don't chime in on posts like this due to it being mostly opinion based (already know who stands where from other threads). Also, I have much less cham experience than others and not enough background to have developed my own opinion yet. But to the sterility portion of this discussion:
I do own a "cross" that I know to be at least 3rd generation on the sire side. This is simply because on the breeders website I was able to look at the % of both the father and grandfather of my cham. The change in ratio of locale mixes could only have occurred from at least 2 generations on the male side (see chameleons only's Holman and Tolman lines on their website). It is possible that this goes back even further.
That being said - a case study on this only proves that there is not 100% risk of sterility. This is a risk based concern - the question being does "crossing" increase risk of sterility of male off spring? (if there even is any risk) and what is the increased liklihood of sterility for 1st, 2nd, 3rd, etc. generations? I don't know the answer to this but very experienced breeders might have an idea.
The point being - just doing it to try and prove it can be done is not going to accomplish anything. The current knowledge on this subject already exceeds any information that will be gained by a "case study" using a limited number of breeding pairs.
Carlton
Chameleon Enthusiast
I doubt anyone knows the genetic makeup of any wild panther locales. The term probably isn't being used correctly; maybe just for marketing purposes. We don't know for sure just how much of an individual animal's characteristics is simple variation or the result of incubation temp effects on cell pigment/enzyme development either. Madagascar native habitats have been broken up and damaged for a very long time potentially isolating cham populations long enough for drift to occur. But, at the same time some panthers are opportunists and may be dispersing into new areas at the same rate others are being isolated. Who the heck knows? No one probably.
At bottom, if someone wants to experiment with panther coloration by crossing why not? These animals are not going to affect wild population genetics. As long as WHAT the offspring are is honestly represented and any harmful traits are culled (dwarfism, deformities, poor survival, low fecundity due to inbreeding, etc). Someone who demands a "pure" animal can shop around. Pictures say a lot if they are genuine.
Juxocyde
New Member
same thing i did with the rest of them, sell them as they are as being sterile males of a cross breed mother anf father, oh, i take it that might effect the selling price huh? well thats why i keep restating that this is not about money, this isnt my business, this isnt my means of income, this is my hobby and my desire, if i make a few bucks and make people happy at the same time then so be it. if i decide to take it into a business then i would have had the experience and clientel in order to grow with confidence with more veriety and pure breeds. until then im going with what i have and what i like, look for me on the web when it does make it big, ill be under chameleonxbreeds.com or thehybridchameleon.com, crosschams.com, i can go all day with this but you get my point.
Elizadolots
New Member
I think Carlton has made one of the best posts in the thread.
Let's look at it from a different perspective. So, these need to be sold for less money, right? Doesn't that make them more available to people who have wanted to make the jump to Panthers but were intimidated by the prices? Isn't it possible that these can be a "gateway" Panther that leads more to take up the addiction?
Let's look at it from a different perspective. So, these need to be sold for less money, right? Doesn't that make them more available to people who have wanted to make the jump to Panthers but were intimidated by the prices? Isn't it possible that these can be a "gateway" Panther that leads more to take up the addiction?
SpinyFranky
New Member
My real interest in this thread is the proving/disproving of the authors statement. Thank you for this post.
So your male is 3rd generation... Im curious to what that means - perhaps he is an exception? perhaps sterility is at a higher risk with second generation male crosses than it is with pure breds... This is the information im most interested in!
I could not really care less who breeds what, sells what, or does what. Unless of course they are abusing animals/lying. Then I care.
I will say though that if the 2nd generation males have a greater chance of being sterile... I would definitely not purchase such an animal, just to risk alone. That is just me however. I agree with Eliza that it can probably make the animals more affordable for some - but cmon, exotics are never a cheap pet. So I think price really has little to do about it when it comes to a serious keeper, one who will "Save" his money to get what he wants - instead of just allocating a small budget and purchasing whatever fits within his means.
If it were easy for one to obtain a Parsons', the price would be of little concern - I would simply save and then make my purchase.
Its just the desire to create a new line of animals that will "inspire people bored with the current panthers" that pissed me off. Because that is simply ridiculous.
Julirs
New Member
One interesting fact is that alot of these mixed locales end up going to Petstores where they are marked up to a price higher than a pure locale and often sold as a pure locale.
I for one like that they are a bit "pricy". In my mind I like to think it makes people a bit more serious about jumping into such a reptile with higher care needs.
sandrachameleon
Chameleon Enthusiast
Sandra, is your cross male first or second generation cross? The author states he believes the males only become sterile second generation and beyond. Lets see, maybe you can disprove it
His mother was a second generation cross (NosyBe x Ambilobe), his father was a pure NosyBe.
