$1,000 cham!!!
- Thread starter chameleoman
- Start date
DanSB
Avid Member
ha ha best comment so far!
10 to 1 odds says someone will pay him way more than they are worth (not 1K each but much closer than any of know they are actually worth) because there is a group of people out there that love weird things. Look at that freak show guy who pays thousands for two headed lizards!
He has already proven the concept and gave the most valuable information away free! So this shouldn't be hard to replicate for way less than 2k if anyone is truly interested by the way...
Oh well I think the whole thing is interesting but the whole mentality of hitting the jackpot by creating sickly crossed animals gives me an icky feeling in my stomach. I'm not a fan of considering yourself a winner and lucky off the pain of another life.
Ethics isn't my strong suit but even I see an issue here.
Edit: I just noticed on the Ad they come with the cages and a lamp... so consider them as maybe 850 dollar chameleons
chameleoman
Avid Member
but heres the dumb thing why would you spend a 1,000 when you can just spend around 400 for the same adults (veiled and graceful) breed your own and have a bunch more babies i can bet you someone already saw that add and tried
it watch, then youll be seeing them on the market. the guy should have kept it to himself as his own private collection
it watch, then youll be seeing them on the market. the guy should have kept it to himself as his own private collection
I agree......+1.
DanSB
Avid Member
If you actually think about it you would realize that it is not even close to the same thing. Breeding different species of the same Genus and breeding different races / locales / color morphs is completely different.
When you take genetic dissimilar members of the same species they become stronger. I can nearly guarantee most all panther locale crosses are healthier in general than pure locales.
When you mix different species you are taking genetic traits that are not made to mix and often get less healthy individuals.
The reason this is bad to me is that we are not seeing healthier stronger animals we are seeing sickly clutches with huge die off rates. It isn't ethical to do that to life.
If you don't like mixing locales that is only a taste thing, there is no ethical decision especially when considering there is no plan to re-release into the wild.
chameleoman
Avid Member
i love the mixed locals but thats probably why his were weak
Dr O
Veterinarian
i'm interested if you can point me towards the information regarding this statement. i'm personally a little surprised it would even take that long, but i didn't know that it may be hard fact already.
chameleoman
Avid Member
Olimpia
Biologist & Ecologist
I find it a little rude to put this guy on the spot like this. They are his animals and regardless of what you think I don't think it's fair to call them ugly mutts publicly. I've gotten that to my face about my own panther crosses and it's anything but necessary to say to someone. If they don't sell for a grand then big deal, he'll lower the price until someone takes them. It's the way the market works. If he sells them for this much then you know what, good for him.
Just remember to keep playing nice, guys.
Just remember to keep playing nice, guys.
chameleoman
Avid Member
im not trying to be mean to him im just saying in my opinion i dont think he should sell these guys publicly, think about all the bad genes and deformations ect.... if some one else tried to replicated what he did and they screw theres up and end up with a 2 headed, 3 armed, tail less cham
Motherlode Chameleon
Chameleon Enthusiast
Well stated! Especially after the fact he has been kind enough to document and post this unique story/event on these forums.
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DanSB
Avid Member
I politely disagree.
He came on the board for verification and a bit of praise and possibly a sales opportunity. He was asking what they were worth from the beginning.
I did appreciate the information that was shared and learned a lot. I learned this is a bad idea even though it is possible and that it looks like species hybrids are an unhealthy sad lot.
So why try to promote this as a great gem and find?
Your mixed locales are beautiful healthy animals and this is a completely different subject than mixing locales. If someone chose to say mean things when you hurt no animal they are stupid.
I will say things that are less than nice to anyone who hurts animals on purpose or profits from hurting animals and I believe creating species hybrids hurts animals.
Motherlode Chameleon
Chameleon Enthusiast
I would not just rip him because he has got an oddity. Oddities happen every once in a while. If I had something of this sort I would be asking price questions as well. If my recollection is accurate he was scouted out by Kent whom met him and encouraged him to post this happening on these forums and he did. Just because he did not approach posting a thread they way you would does not make it open season to rip this breeding event. Plus it still would be great to hear how they mature and how long the end up living and ripping him is not going to encourage that.
diablocham
Member
i saw the post couple of days ago,,,,,i know someone would buy this kind for any reason u want,and cause they have the money,,,,with all respect i wouldnt,,,1. i dont have the money,,2...if i have it,,,i will save more and buy a parson,,,who knows,,,,
chameleoman
Avid Member
i see it as breeding a cat with a dog
DanSB
Avid Member
I am not ripping him for having an oddity or for the breeding event itself which I believe was an accident.
I also apologize for the supposition he was here simply to make sales as you're correct he was asked to come here and share. I completely forgot about that.
I am torn between being harsh and not encouraging some others who have no idea of the ramifications to go ahead and try this themselves and being polite and curious and make it more likely to be rewarded with how these animals turn out.
I chose to be harsh.
I picture some idiot teenager seeing this and feeling like it is okay try themselves and playing little scientist with actual lives accomplishing nothing save possibly lining their pockets and creating pain.
If I can make any contribution to that not happening i will.
I really do respect the position you and Olimipia have taken and in many respects agree but I'm going to be a dick on this one
.
chameleoman
Avid Member
I am not ripping him for having an oddity or for the breeding event itself which I believe was an accident.
I also apologize for the supposition he was here simply to make sales as you're correct he was asked to come here and share. I completely forgot about that.
I am torn between being harsh and not encouraging some others who have no idea of the ramifications to go ahead and try this themselves and being polite and curious and make it more likely to be rewarded with how these animals turn out.
I chose to be harsh.
I picture some idiot teenager seeing this and feeling like it is okay try themselves and playing little scientist with actual lives accomplishing nothing save possibly lining their pockets and creating pain.
If I can make any contribution to that not happening i will.
I really do respect the position you and Olimipia have taken and in many respects agree but I'm going to be a dick on this one
well said but i highly doubt it was an accident the more i think about it he video taped them having intercourse and if he bothered to video tape it he could have separated them and it looks like there in a cage so he put them there
FabrizioHC
New Member
You are right.
He did tape them. And they were in a cage. So this was no accident.
Here's the video:
[YOUTUBE]watch?v=3nCovcd185k[/YOUTUBE]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3nCovcd185k
Kmw
New Member
All those tiny designer dogs people like so much are inbred. But with chameleons its unacceptable. I'm sure many who would frown on this cham, loves - or even owns/has owned a dog that has been inbred like crazy to get its features.
http://yellowmagpie.com/dog-breeds-that-have-been-devastated-by-careless-pedigree-inbreeding/
http://yellowmagpie.com/dog-breeds-that-have-been-devastated-by-careless-pedigree-inbreeding/
Motherlode Chameleon
Chameleon Enthusiast
I am not ripping him for having an oddity or for the breeding event itself which I believe was an accident.
I also apologize for the supposition he was here simply to make sales as you're correct he was asked to come here and share. I completely forgot about that.
I am torn between being harsh and not encouraging some others who have no idea of the ramifications to go ahead and try this themselves and being polite and curious and make it more likely to be rewarded with how these animals turn out.
I chose to be harsh.
I picture some idiot teenager seeing this and feeling like it is okay try themselves and playing little scientist with actual lives accomplishing nothing save possibly lining their pockets and creating pain.
If I can make any contribution to that not happening i will.
I really do respect the position you and Olimipia have taken and in many respects agree but I'm going to be a dick on this one
I would not be overly harsh, as the entire 18 years I have been working with chameleons I have only heard about hybrid chameleons happening 4-5 times in the wild and once this time in captivity (this time). Even with wholesalers who have mixed species in the same cage before selling them. With how few survived out of the clutch (3 out of 27) with such a low survival rate I would be surprised to see a newbie or experience keeper attempting to breed hybrids any time soon.
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