Swollen throat or not?

Hi...
I currenly have a male born in Oct 08 and doing really well so far but has developed a slightly swolen neck and have now noticed him "yawning" few times a day, I noticed this problem about 2-3 days ago with his neck being slightly larger, he now stresses and hisses when being handled and has never done before which has now caused my concern (he usualy come to the front of the tank, a hand out and he walks on. His mouth is all clear and looks as it should (no goo) and he eats as normal and still very accurate with his tounge.

I have been dusting my crickets and locusts with calcuim and vit supp's every time i get 50 or so and add 1 pinch (not gut loading them), as previously had another male that died from a back and front leg problem that I was told was due to poor calcuim in his diet, even though i was previously gut loading the crickets but no dusting. I have since found out that this one, he likes to eat anything green from a bowl and happily drinks from a bowl too, so for the past 2 months has been eating sugar snap peas, spinach, brocolli, cabbage, green beans and spring greens from a bowl. The humidity ranges from 60% in the day and 80% night. Warm water is sprayed in his tank at lights on and just before lights off, temps are around 25-30celcius dependant on time of day and also has a basking light which has that side/top of tank around 90celcius on the under hanging branch. He has a 10.0 25W Repti-glo light and access within a few inches in places. He's been on this schedule now for about 3mths with no previous issues.

Any ideas on what could cause my issue or is it not one and this is a pointless thread ?


* Should i only dust the crickets once a month so 50/200 and start gut laoding them non-green foods (as easily clears a small feeding dish full of greens a day on his own) (Suggestions of those non-green foods would be great)

* gut load all crickets with the all food and dont dust the crickets at all. (what foods that im not already using?)
or
* something i'm totaly missing or doing wrong.

I've attached the below picture which was taken on the 26th March 2009. where there is no sign (as a first time owner) as i can see with his neck. Yes he puffed up a bit due to the camera being shoved into his face, but does it look like the start of what i have described as his state now?


PICTURE 1


and a 2nd that shows him as "normal" but notice the slight puff by his right hand in the above picture that is now how looks like the below picutre (picture 2). No seperation from neck to body as can clearly see in the 2nd picture.

PICTURE 2




Thanks in advance and will get some recent pictures up asap to show his current state and to put pictures to my words for others that might have these concerns in the future.



Aaron

I would remove Broccoli from his diet, and probably the cabbage too (same family).

Broccoli has more than its fair share of oxalates and is also high in goitrogens. Oxalates bind with calcium, decreasing its absorption. Oxalate is one of a number of things that can contribute to gout and kidney stones. Goitrogens can bind to iodine and thus lead to hypothyrodism.
or so I've read.

I use a calcium supplement dusted lightly on every cricket. (Crickets have a poor calc : Phos ratio)

I offer many other insects besides crickets, and these I am less consistent in dusting (if at all). I use a calcium with D3 supplement once every other week (my chameleons do not have access to real outdoors sunlight). I use a vitamin supplement (beta carotene source of A, not preformed) once every other week (opposite to the D3 week).
I also gutload every insect as best as possible. Gutloading is important, even for a chameleon that eats greens, in my opinion. Healthy, nutritious insects contribute to having a healthy chameleon.

Ive collected a bunch of Gutloading info in this blog entry: https://www.chameleonforums.com/blogs/sandrachameleon/75-feeder-nutrition.html
You asked what non-green stuff you can gutload your insect with. In the link above you will find a list of things I use as a gutload, which includes: quality whole grain cereal (Im currently using Kashi); spirulina; bee pollen; alfalfa; organic raw sunflower seeds; squash; carrot; yam; orange...

I dont see anything particularily bad in the photos, but I dont keep veileds, so my opinion is not all that valuable in that regard. You might do a search on edema, see if those symtoms fit what you are seeing.

I think you meant to say the basking spot is 90F / 32C, not 90Celcius, eh?

Looks like a touch of edema which can be caused by over supplementing.

sandrachameleon said:

I think you meant to say the basking spot is 90F / 32C, not 90Celcius, eh?

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Yes i did


I also feed him other insects other than crickets, but think i will have to change my schedule around a little with the supliments as it does seem that i'm over doing it a little and start with the gut loading again. I'll have a look at the link too.

Thanks for the quick responce.

dehydration can also cause edema

sandrachameleon said:

dehydration can also cause edema

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He has a 5 point dripper that's filled daily, he is sprayed twice a day with warm water with lots of leaves for it to settle and drip from and also has a bowl which he reguarly drinks from at the bottom of the tank... is there something I'm missing?


Thanks for the links above - now have a dry mixture printed out to start the crickets on which have never done previously and I used to use the same wet mix as you pretty much but this time will take out the broccoli.

You're welcome.

Bowls can harbour bacteria. I'd get rid of it if he drinks from the drippers etc, or at least ensure you thoroughly wash it every day.

If the urate is white, dehydration is unlikely

He does get his water changed twice daily when i change the greens over, as i take the eating bowl out every night and back in with fresh every morning, and the water bowl get washed each time.
He seems to like the water bowl and as i only have silk plants in the tank they dont hold the water for as long as i would like. IMO its a good backup just incase he wants a drink at anytime of the day he can and is no hasstle, plus helps with the humidity levels as live in a UK climate.

Looks like a touch of edema which can be caused by over supplementing.

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It can also occur where no supplementation, or minimal supplementation, takes place. We have seen it occur with one animal in a clutch of 30 where all were subjected to identical husbandry. Most of the time that we see it it is specific to the animal, and not the husbandry received. Most of what is written about edema in forums is pretty lame.

I wouldn't change a thing right now. What I see here is hasty jumping to conclusions by folks with keyboards, telling you to change this or that, so typical of forum diagnosis. If concerned enough, some bloodwork by a competent vet would let you know if things are out of balance. Nothing wrong with a chameleon being fiesty.

Water bowls are not a good idea though, for bacterial concerns mentioned. It has been written about here quite often. So long as the animal has adequate drink opportunities (not with a waterfall or bowl) humidity issues are negligible, and using them as an excuse for a water bowl is bad logic, especially for a Continental.

i dont quite get the point about bacteria you've mentioned - If i'm spraying water into the tank at the exact same times as when i put fresh water into a bowl is this not the process?? just one gets sprayed onto fake/silk leaves and one is in a bowl? plus the leaves are not cleaned twice daily as the bowl is.
The same goes for the dripper, water goes into that at the same time as the spraying, water/green bowl replacment is done and that essentialy is standing water in a dripper waiting to be dripped out?? ( a bowl with a hole )
sorry i if im missing something simple here about water and bacteria build up , does it only start at a certain level of liquid!!??? it is 03:30am for me in the UK currently.

Unless you are the third shift ...

... You should be in bed dreaming of chameleons.

Standing water in a chameleon's cage, or your insect enclosure, is an invite to bacteria build-up, consumed by crickets, and then transferred to chameleons. Its been written about a lot here, and if nothing else, while some chams will actually drink from a bowl, you are "asking for trouble" as us Colonials know all too well how to say. Its a really bad idea.

Here's what happens (from a paper I email to all who ask).

Upper Esophageal Infections

Upper E. infections are due to an excessive build-up of bacteria in the mouth and upper esophagus. It is not caused by temperature/humidity issues as most respiratory infections may be, although it is often diagnosed as such. It is usually caused by the introduction of large quantities of otherwise common bacteria into the chameleon’s mouth via its food, most commonly scavenger bugs like crickets.

Lets assume crickets. What happens is that the cricket is ingesting from a bacterial stew somewhere, which means access to moisture and crud. This may be wherever you house your crickets, or possibly, right in the chameleon's cage. If in your cricket bin, any water source that is not removed and disinfected every two days or less becomes a source. If not done at least every four days its a guarantee. This includes those cricket water pellets/bites, sponge-bottom waterers, etc. If using the water pellets (or whatever they are called, I avoid them like the plague), fully take out and wipe clean any corner/dish they are in, and use a different corner/clean dish every two days. In your chameleon's cage, many people have live plants with a plastic dish beneath it to catch/hold water runoff from the plant. Standing water there will be contaminated easily, then consumed by crickets, who can handle high bacteria consumption. All of the above turn crickets into what we call "poison pills".

Symptoms begin with a visual build-up of gummy mucous, but no labored breathing (at first). As it worsens, this mucous will dry outside the lip, forming an ugly crust at times. It will likely not go away on its own, and the infection will eventually overwhelm and kill the animal, as it will migrate to the lungs, and worsen in the throat. This can usually take a month or more. It is also easily diagnosed and confirmed via a culture and sensitivity panel (about $75 at your vet's), and responds to common orally administered antibiotics. You must find and eliminate the source as well.

It is our experience that this type of infection is more common in the hobby than URI's (Upper Respiratory Infections). It is often semi-diagnosed as such, and with a culture, is then remedied in the animal as if it were a URI, which will work. Problem is, the bacteria source / causative husbandry deficiency goes un-remedied, and it can happen all over again.

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Now get some rest !

Chameleon Company said:

... What I see here is hasty jumping to conclusions by folks with keyboards, telling you to change this or that, so typical of forum diagnosis.

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I didnt see anyone jumping to hasty conclusions, rather I saw individuals providing suggestions of things to look at /consider - which is what was asked for, was it not? Instead of being negative and confrontational, it might be nicer, IMO, if you just provide your own suggestions, without the unnecessary backlash against others.

Sorry Sandra ...

.. but its the curse of Forum dynamics. Too much advice based on very limited experience, but enabled with very active keyboards.

Forums beg for naysayers who often don't bother. Every now and then I relish the opportunity.

How would you have any idea how much experience, or lack thereof, people have? You're not the only one with multiple chameleons, you're not the only breeder, you're not the only one with opinions. No reason to think you're better than the rest of us.
Then again, I'm guilty of preachy-ness on occassion myself, such as right now in fact. So .... sorry

How would you have any idea how much experience, or lack thereof, people have?

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Frankly, I do not need to know, but it isn't rocket science to read some of these posts and divine the experience behind it. Is that so hard to fathom? You seem a bit edgy on this subject. IMMHO, and I do not think I am alone here, forums abound with much hasty advice. And some good advice, thank God.

Am I experienced ? Yes. More than most ? If we are talking chameleons, then the answer is also yes. Does it matter ? Only to the reader.

If there is one thing that I learned about chameleons long ago, its that "the more I know, the more I don't know". My criticism was generic, but aimed at what I see as a real "take it with a grain of salt" dynamic. Seems I hit a nerve or two though.

I have often posted about "over-management" in chameleons. I enjoy it writing of it, twisted person that I am. This forum abounds with posts by "experts" who have not yet acquainted themselves with what they do not know. I use the word "expert" because they are adamant about suggesting husbandry changes where a more experienced keeper would recommend caution. Some contributors abound with very good information, and take the time to explain the basis of their specific experience with the problem at hand, exercise the proper amount of caution, and then guide the OP to a logic path.

Worry not, as I miss 99 out of 100 posts in this forum. It is still my opinion that one must wade through a lot of frivolous advice here to get to the good stuff. I have had the benefit of reading about 100 posts today, while some days I do not log in. Without naming names, about six of them were truly informative. My advice to all who read here is to implore them to at least get a second opinion ... or ten. Take care.

Chameleon Company said:

You seem a bit edgy on this subject.

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ya, sorry, I am edgy today - not your fault and I shouldnt bring it with me to the forum

I have had the benefit of reading about 100 posts today, while some days I do not log in. Without naming names, about six of them were truly informative. My advice to all who read here is to implore them to at least get a second opinion ... or ten. Take care.

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I dont even dissagree with you. Half of what I read isnt worth reading, half the advise isnt good advice, in my opinion. I just got irritated by what I took to be an unnecessarily condescending/confrontational tone, which i doubt you intended
And I've just made it worse. Too bad there's no "un-do post" button

Well, the best humor has a good dose of truth in it ...

So before I hit the sack in this Eastern time zone, lets give it a whirl ...

1) It is said that he (or she) that knows the most, has failed the most. That means dead chameleons. I may have killed more than any human in history. If God is a chameleon, I am in really really deep feces.

2) With each passing day I get a better grasp on my expanding ignorance.

3) My hope was to only implore that folks get a second opinion before they make the inevitable mistake.

4) The tortoise beat the hare. The best solutions often take more time than we would like to accommodate.

5) I see merit in Brad adding a disclaimer that automatically posts with each thread starter that says something like "Warning: There's a good chance that you need hip waders beyond this point", or something similar. Or maybe limiting members to 2 posts daily ?

Hope all is well. People like me come with the turf sometimes.

anyway back to the subject in hand my latest pics:






Shall i just keep an eye on this for now and as above cut down on the amount of dusting and back to the good 'ol gut loading?
or should i get to the vets and get this checked out as could be something building?

I have my dry mix ready for tomorrow now too


Need to build my knowledge base when it comes to Chameleons... personal experience passed on IMO is 2nd to none as everyone and living thing is slightly different and un-predictable so taking a bit from all I can eventualy make up my own mind... This wont be my last Chameleon.... Already building a 2nd cage for him and will soon have a spare

goldk28611 said:

...Need to build my knowledge base when it comes to Chameleons...

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Lot of links to useful threads on this site as well as links to other websites can be found in my blog.

i'm slowly getting round this forum - spent not far off 8hrs reading though here last night and have done the same again tonight (working 12hr night shifts and nothing to fix atm its currently 04:20) plus the many hours before i got him...