Zeus needs help!!!

[karstar]

Your Chameleon - Veiled Chameleon, Male, approximately 5 months old. Brought him home 3 months ago.

Handling - For the most part we leave him alone. I bring him out and hold him on my hand over the cricket tub maybe twice a week. Other times we place the cricket tub on the substrate and let him hunt.

Feeding - Zeus has eaten crickets since we brought him home. Usually between 10-15 four week old (medium) crickets. He is fed once or twice a day when I get home from work. Crickets are fed Rep-Cal Cricket food

Supplements - I sprinkle the crickets with Rep-Cal Herptivite with beta carotene, and Rep-Cal calcium with vitamin d. I dont really have a schedule for vitamins. I have tried feeding him mealworms and strawberries, lettuce, etc. but he wont take it.

Watering - I was leaving ice cubes on the mesh top everyday before I leave for work, and misting 2 times a day. In the last few days I've noticed Zeus seems sick so I started up a drip with a plastic cup (with lid). I mist with a waterbottle until the humidity reaches 50%. Usually I see him drinking water from leaves but lately he hasn't been moving much.

Fecal Description - Umm his poo looks like poo. It's brownish and blends in with the substrate. There is a bunch of white droppings too and a few specks of yellow. Zeus has not had a vet visit yet so I don't know if he has any parasites.

History - I got him as a birthday gift from PJ's pet store in West Edmonton Mall.

Cage Info:

Cage Type - His home is a glass terrarium 24" x 17.5" x 17.5" with a wire mesh top and 2 front glass doors

Lighting - Repti Glo 5.0 compact and Sun Glo 100W basking lamp. Basking lamp is off when I am working and then turned on when I get home (I prefer to monitor the temp as it can get up to 102 F). I use a black bulb at night as a heat source.

Temperature - With just UV light it stays around 75-80, basking light brings it up to around 95 before I turn it off. The lowest I've ever seen it is around 72. I have never measured the temp at night but I use a black bulb as a heat source. I have a digital hydrometer/thermometer (?) I think thats what its called.

Humidity - I try my best to keep it at 50% but it tends to naturally stay around 25-30%. I mist regularly and turn on the basking lamp after misting to raise the humidity. On average I get it up to 50% humidity twice a day.

Plants - No live plants. Don't know what to get or where to get it.

Placement - Zeus lives on our kitchen table. No fans or vents. The top of his cage is approx 5 feet from the ground.

Location - We are in Edmonton, AB Canada

Current Problem - Zeus has not eaten anything in 3 days. I have not seen him drinking any water either. I bought a new tub of crickets 3 days ago and decided to pick up meal worms too (to introduce some fun into his diet). He wouldnt sit still long enough to eat and when I placed the bug tub in his cage and walked away, he still didnt take anything. I tried again the next day and he just ran from me like crazy. Today when I checked on him he looked very tired. When he walks he is very shaky. I picked him up and he is very placid, layed his belly against my skin and closed his eyes. I went to the store today. Picked up some veggies and fruits. Endive, Agrula, Bok Choy, Carrots, Strawberries and a few apples. I placed a thin slice of strawberry on an endive leaf a few hours ago. I put it on the branch in front of him and he hasn't moved from his spot (on a wood branch where the drip water collects). Hasn't taken any of it. I don't know what else to do. Please help. I love my Zeus!

 

[kicsylany]

Hi, my suggestion would be more misting with warm water, on the first pic. Zeus's eye(s) are look sunken and the orange bit in his urate means as well dehydration. Try to give him a nice warm showernplacing him on a plant but don't point the shower head on him. It is usually helps. And also i think ice cube watering isn't very good, the water is just too cold.

 

[kicsylany]

Few more thing DON'T use the compact bulb, it is a fact that can cause eye issues with chameleons, change it ASAP for a linear tube type one.

 

[kicsylany]

If you can add a few live plants to your setup(make sure they are non toxic) they can help increase the humanity level which is very low.

 

[carol5208]

Were all the pictures taken in the same day? In the first one he looks dehydrated. His eyes look a bit sunken. You are using way too much of wattage bulb for basking! Should be using about a 40 watt and you want your basking temp to be about 80-82. 102 is WAY too hot!! You should not have any substrate in the bottom of the cage!! Especially if you are free ranging the crickets. I don't know what you are using for substrate but it is possible while shooting for crickets that he could have injested some of the substrate while shooting his tongue. You need to be dusting your Crickets and feeders with calcium WITHOUT d3 at every feeding. No heat source at night unless your temps are dipping below 60 degrees. It sounds like you have your enclosure way too hot for him. This can effect his eating .

 

[growing zoo]

Hi
First of all I am an inexperienced cham keeper only having had my veiled for 3 or so months and he is probably 5-6 months old so please take my advice with a pinch of salt.

My veiled went on hunger strike a few weeks ago and barely ate more than 3 wax worms in 3 weeks !!
The advice I was given was to increase my temp by 1-3 degreees and to not offer food for a day or so (which I found quite hard as I was frantically offfering all sorts of foods throughout the day)
Try to shower him with warm water on a plant in the shower with the water spraying onto the wall bouncing off onto the cham so as not to blast him for about 20 minutes which will help rehydrate and maybe stimulate hunger.
He eventually ate but is only taking 1-2 locusts aday now.

The other thing I noticed from your care sheet states that you turn the basking light off during the day when your at work?? I am under the impression that the basking light is not only a source of heat to aid digestion amongst other things but is also the chams way of identifying day and night - hopefully someone will chime in with some experience on this.
If your worried about over heating then invest in a thermostat and maybe lower the bulb wattage to try to keep the temp about 85 degrees.

I am also under the impression that around the 5-6 month mark a veiled becomes quite picky with their food (suddenly going off food) maybe try gut loading your crickets on some fresh fruit and veg such as kale, spring greens, dandelions, apple and orange (look for gut loading on the forum) to change the taste!!

Hope this helps and I haven't miss lead you in anyway as I said I am new to all this but found myself in the same situation a few weeks ago.

 

[carol5208]

You need to be dusting your feeders a follows: Calcium without d3 at every feeding. Calcium with d3 two or three times a month and the multi vitamin twice a months also. Also meal worms are a poor choice of an alternative feeder. They are loaded with Chitin and you don't want to overload your chameleon on that. I would try silworms, hornworms, butterworms, or superworms.

 

[carol5208]

Hi
First of all I am an inexperienced cham keeper only having had my veiled for 3 or so months and he is probably 5-6 months old so please take my advice with a pinch of salt.

My veiled went on hunger strike a few weeks ago and barely ate more than 3 wax worms in 3 weeks !!
The advice I was given was to increase my temp by 1-3 degreees and to not offer food for a day or so (which I found quite hard as I was frantically offfering all sorts of foods throughout the day)
Try to shower him with warm water on a plant in the shower with the water spraying onto the wall bouncing off onto the cham so as not to blast him for about 20 minutes which will help rehydrate and maybe stimulate hunger.
He eventually ate but is only taking 1-2 locusts aday now.

The other thing I noticed from your care sheet states that you turn the basking light off during the day when your at work?? I am under the impression that the basking light is not only a source of heat to aid digestion amongst other things but is also the chams way of identifying day and night - hopefully someone will chime in with some experience on this.
If your worried about over heating then invest in a thermostat and maybe lower the bulb wattage to try to keep the temp about 85 degrees.

I am also under the impression that around the 5-6 month mark a veiled becomes quite picky with their food (suddenly going off food) maybe try gut loading your crickets on some fresh fruit and veg such as kale, spring greens, dandelions, apple and orange (look for gut loading on the forum) to change the taste!!

Hope this helps and I haven't miss lead you in anyway as I said I am new to all this but found myself in the same situation a few weeks ago.

His temps are hot enough already with the basking bulb.

 

[kicsylany]

If you can please buy a thermostat that will control your vivarium day/night temperature.

 

[growing zoo]

But if he turns the light off during the day while out, the temp will not be consistent!!!
surely having a lower wattage and consistent light with consistent temps of 85 Degrees is better than fluctuating????
Like I stressed I am inexperienced and can only give the advice that I have been given from this site!!

 

[carol5208]

But if he turns the light off during the day while out, the temp will not be consistent!!!
surely having a lower wattage and consistent light with consistent temps of 85 Degrees is better than fluctuating????
Like I stressed I am inexperienced and can only give the advice that I have been given from this site!!

No, no I agree with you but you said to raise the temps in your post and I was saying not too if he was reaching 95 -102 with basking. I said to put in a 40 watt bulb for basking and yes leave it on all day, you are correct. I forgot to add that in! Sorry!!!! He needs to be able to bask when he wants.

 

[growing zoo]

It's difficult because although all chams need the same they also are individual and have separate tweeks to their care.

When I said to raise the temp I was meaning that was the advice I was given for my individual situation and it seems to have worked.
Investing in a thermostat and lowering the wattage is probably the way to go.

 

[sandrachameleon]

Like others have said, buy an appropriate wattage light bulb (even a 25watt) that when left on during the day will keep the basking temp warm while not cooking the entire enclosure. Its time to get a bigger enclosure as well.
Ensure water is always available
monitor temp and humidity carefully
Start feeding/gutloading the crickets better (dandelion leaves, butternut squash, carrots, etc)
Use a phosphorous free plain calcium (no D3) most times, and the one with D3 less often.
Try adding butterworms, silkworms, roaches, terrestrial isopods, smaller superworms to his diet. Mealworms are okay, but not great.
No night light - temp can get down to the low 60Fs / 18C ish. Some people have had troubles with the ReptiGlo 5.0 CFL, and some people havent. You may want to change it out for a tube linear style bulb.

more info:
https://www.chameleonforums.com/blogs/sandrachameleon/74-feeders.html
https://www.chameleonforums.com/blogs/sandrachameleon/65-supplements.html
https://www.chameleonforums.com/blogs/sandrachameleon/75-feeder-nutrition-gutloading.html
https://www.chameleonforums.com/blogs/sandrachameleon/92-hydration-importance.html
https://www.chameleonforums.com/blogs/ryan-jarosek/119-new-arrival-bringing-home.html
https://www.chameleonforums.com/blogs...questions.html
https://www.chameleonforums.com/blo...-keepers-young-veiled-panther-chameleons.html

 

[carol5208]

I did not notice until Sandrachameleon mentioned that you are using the compact bulb. I would try changing out the bulb for a reptisun 5.0 tube instead of the compact and see if that does not make any positive changes for your cham. As stated, some people have had issues with the compacts, but you never ever hear of any eye closing, problems etc with the tube.

 

[rcutchens]

Hi karstar and welcome to the forum. You've certainly come to the right place for help and advice regarding caring for your chameleon and specifically working to get Zeus back to good health if possible.

It's great that you took the time to fill out the How to Ask for Help Form because there's a ton of useful information included that will definitely help other forum members assess Zeus' husbandry and provide you with solid advice. It's also good that you provided pictures. I'm not terribly experienced but I've researched and read many articles and posts on this forum and, based on the information you've provided, there's a lot going on with Zeus' setup and diet that you should consider changing.

Looking at the pics his eyes do look a little sunken which can be sign of dehydration. Additionally you'd mentioned some yellow in his feces and that might also be an indication of dehydration. The other two pictures don't look bad but his behavior that you describe is probably an good indator something is wrong. I'll just go down the list.

Handling: In this section you'd mentioned substrate. It's generally advised not to use substrate your chameleon's cage/setup because he/she could accidentally ingest it when hunting feeders or just exploring on their own. This can can cause them to become sick or even suffer from impaction. I'd recommend removing the substrate and just using either nothing on the bottom or clean paper towels or even newspaper.

Feeding Nothing especially wrong with the crickets themselves but you might consider using something in addition to the Rep-Cal cricket food for gut-loading them. A wet gut-load consisting of fruits and/or vegetables with a good calcium to phospherous ratio of 1.5:1 to 2:1. Sandrachameleon has a great blog posted with a ton of information regarding gutloading.

https://www.chameleonforums.com/blogs/sandrachameleon/75-feeder-nutrition-gutloading.html

Supplements I don't think it's a good idea to dust the feeders with Calcium WITH VIT D3 daily and, in fact, could be bad for your chameleon. With the UVB lighting, if it's good, the Zeus should be able to produce Vit D3 on his own and you shouldn't have to supplement with the Vit D3 that frequently; pehaps only 1 to 3 times a month is what most recommend. You should use a phospherous free Calcium supplement to dust crickets for every feeding however and the Rep-Cal brand is highly recommended.

Watering I've heard of people using ice cubes but I'm not so sure a chameleon would want to drink water that was that cold; especially considering it's a cold-blooded animal and he needs to regulate his body temperature using the heat provided from light sources. I think setting up the dripper as you have is a good change and I'd give him water that is either warm or room temperature at the coldest.

Also, if Zeus is really dehydrated you might consider increasing the number of mistings per day and use warm water then as well. You can also try allowing him to take a warm shower by placing a plant in the shower and placing him on the plant while the water is deflected off the shower wall but not directly on him. Again, the water should be warm to the touch. This will help to provide him with good moisture.

Green Hornworms are said to be great sources for hydration but I'm not sure if he's big enough to eat them or if he'd be interested. Additionally, you can inject cricket or other feeders with water with a small needle syringe before feeding him but you'll have to get him eating again first.

Fecal Descrition Not sure on this. Seems to be a mixed bag, no pun inteded, and pictures might help to really show what it looks like.

Cage Type I'm not an expert but it's my understanding that keeping chameleons in glass terrariums, even with screened tops, can be challenging if you're not experienced because their environment needs to be well ventilated.

Lighting I've been told that the ReptiSun 5.0 is the absolute best light for providing the most appropriate amount of UVB and you need to ensure that Zeus can bask/sit within 12" of the light for periods of the day so his body can create D3. I originally purchased the Repti Glo 5.0 but after reading a lot of advice and feedback I took it back and ordered the ReptiSun 5.0. I ordered 2 in fact and got a great price from LLL Reptile in the process! Plus I'm told to use the linear tube and not the twisted ones as they can reportedly cause eye problems.

The basking lamp really concerns me because I think 100W is way too much and your temperatures are way too high for a chameleon his age. My understanding is it should be between 80 to 82 degrees and the chameleon should be able to get to cooler areas of the enviroment to regulate his body temperature.

I can understand why you wouldn't want to keep such a high wattage lamp on while you are at work but I really think Zeus still needs to be able to bask in the correct temperatures during the day so I don't think having no heat source is a good option. You should be able to use a normal 40W or even 60W incandescent bulb to provide the appropriate amount of heat.

Also, I don't think it's necessary to provide a heat source during the night and, in fact, it might be a bad idea. I've come to learn through the forums that it is actually good and healthy for veiled and panther chameleons to experience a drop in temperature to between 65 and 68 degrees overnight. I know Rico has no problem sleeping with those temps and is perfectly healthy and ready to go when he wakes up the next morning. (Though he's a lazy riser!)

Temperature It sounds like your UV light is providing enough heat on it's own but you might consider figuring out how to add a heat source type light without jacking your temps up too much higher. I don't think having the temps anywhere above 85 for as young as Zeus is would be at all good for him and could help contribute to dehydration.

Humidity I'm surprised the humidity is not higher in a glass terrarium but with such a high wattage basking lamp it's probably just drying it out. Misting more if possible and reducing the heat would probably help to bring the humidity up. You could also consider adding an automotic misting system or, short of that, adding a clean wet cloth to the cage each day to bring the humidity up. If you do use a cloth be sure to change it with a CLEAN one daily to prevent bacteria growth.

Plants Adding live plants will probably also help with increasing the humidity level in Zeus' setup. Plus, it will give him a more natural environment to enjoy! If you do decide to add live plants you need to be sure to repot them in an organic potting soil with no fertilizers or plant food and probably put something on top of the soil to prevent Zeus from accidently or even purposefully eating the soil. I took others advice and used large polished river rocks that are much too large for Rico to even left let alone swallow!

You can see Rico's setup here:

https://www.chameleonforums.com/members/rcutchens-albums-rico-s-world.html

I'm sure you'll get a lot of other posts with advice on ways to help Zeus to please keep your spirits up and know that we're all rooting for you and especially Zeus!

Please keep us posted on any changes and/or progress in his situation.

 

[karstar]

Were all the pictures taken in the same day? In the first one he looks dehydrated. His eyes look a bit sunken. You are using way too much of wattage bulb for basking! Should be using about a 40 watt and you want your basking temp to be about 80-82. 102 is WAY too hot!! You should not have any substrate in the bottom of the cage!! Especially if you are free ranging the crickets. I don't know what you are using for substrate but it is possible while shooting for crickets that he could have injested some of the substrate while shooting his tongue. You need to be dusting your Crickets and feeders with calcium WITHOUT d3 at every feeding. No heat source at night unless your temps are dipping below 60 degrees. It sounds like you have your enclosure way too hot for him. This can effect his eating .

All the pics were taken today just before my original post. His eyes look a little sunken in the first pic because I caught him napping. His eyes were closed. His eyes dont normally look sunken at all. 102 is waaay too hot which is why I only have the basking light on when I am home, for a short while to give Zeus the option to warm up if needed. He always moves toward the basking light when it is turned on for about 5 minutes and then moves to lower ground. Thats when I turn off the light and let his UV light do the heating. His normal temp is between 75-85 F. Crickets are NOT free ranged. They are placed in a deep tub and placed on the substrate to avoid ingestion problems. I live in Edmonton and our temperature is currently -12 degrees C, it gets real cold at night so we use a black light. I dont want the little guy freezing.

 

[rcutchens]

All the pics were taken today just before my original post. His eyes look a little sunken in the first pic because I caught him napping. His eyes were closed. His eyes dont normally look sunken at all. 102 is waaay too hot which is why I only have the basking light on when I am home, for a short while to give Zeus the option to warm up if needed. He always moves toward the basking light when it is turned on for about 5 minutes and then moves to lower ground. Thats when I turn off the light and let his UV light do the heating. His normal temp is between 75-85 F. Crickets are NOT free ranged. They are placed in a deep tub and placed on the substrate to avoid ingestion problems. I live in Edmonton and our temperature is currently -12 degrees C, it gets real cold at night so we use a black light. I dont want the little guy freezing. I really dont think the temperature is the issue here.

Hi karstar, while it may not seem that temperature is an issue it may, in fact, be a problem. As others have posted your chameleon should never be exposed to temperatures above 85 degrees even if for a limited time. The temperatures should be more consistent and should not rise and fall with great extremes except overnight when it is "night time" for Zeus. As others have posted, he should have the option to regulate his body temperature through steady zones throughout the "day time" and that's not likely to happen if the temps are shooting up to over 100 degrees even if it is just for a short period. Based on what you've posted it sounds like your UV light alone provides a good ambient range for him to enjoy during the day and I'd consider ditching the basking lamp altogether.

Beyond the temps, there's definitely some other suggestions related to his diet, supplementation and watering that you might consider. I think the general concensus is that he does look like he may be dehydrated and this can be caused from lack of water/moisture in combination with too much heat. Dehydration can also affect his appetite so taking steps to increase his hydration might be good first step.

Second, altering his supplementation based on the feedback provided here. Giving him Calcium with Vit D3 daily is not healthy for him and you should consider alter to just include calcium daily and calcium with Vit D3 two to three times each month.

Lastly, improving the nutritional value of his feeders to inclue a wet gut load with more fruits and veggies will not only help provide him with better levels of calcium and other nutrients and vitamins but it will also help to keep him better hydrated.

Again, we're rooting for you both so keep us posted!

 

[karstar]

Its time to get a bigger enclosure as well.

Are you sure? Zeus is so small. It is 24" high. When he was smaller he fell alot and I would hate to see him get hurt.

 

[karstar]

Second, altering his supplementation based on the feedback provided here. Giving him Calcium with Vit D3 daily is not healthy for him and you should consider alter to just include calcium.

Lastly, improving the nutritional value of his feeders to inclue a wet gut load with more fruits and veggies will not only help provide him with better levels of calcium and other nutrients and vitamins but it will also help to keep him better hydrated.

Again, we're rooting for you both so keep us posted!

I will definitely get rid of the basking light and see how he reacts in the next few days. I will pick up the linear UV light when I can afford it, but I am really nervous about removing the substrate. I would hate for Zeus to fall on that hard glass. His food is never left to roam, if any get out of the tub we put them back.

Now for the nutritional stuff. Where can I find the Calcium w/o D3? I can only purchase crickets, superworms, and mealworms at my pet store. Not really much for variety. I feed the crickets a gut load formula from Rep Cal. A full hand full for 100 crickets. Should I be doing more than that? Can you over gut load? Zeus refuses to eat any veggies or fruits. Am I preparing it wrong? Thin slices and small torn up leaves.

I gave Zeus a shower and he LOVED IT!! He refused to sit on the plants, so I let him sit on my arm. He layed down and drank from the droplets that formed on my skin. He still seems very lethargic though, and still not eating.

 

[carol5208]

Why don't you just get a 40 watt regular housebulb and let your cham bask all day if he feels like it? He probably only basks for 5 minutes and moves to "lower ground" because he is getting over heated by a temp of 95-102 degrees and cannot stay under the bulb for much longer than that. Hey, you do what you want, alls we can do is offer advice from our experiences that we have been successful with.