Yellow-lip eggs incubation update

[BackwaterReptiles]

It's been a while since I've posted, so I thought I'd provide a quick update on the 63 Yellow-lip Parson's eggs that were laid on April 23rd, 2015. I received my cooling/warming incubator a couple weeks later on May 12th, 2015, so they were room temp until then.

At that point, I began following Garrett's established cooling-warming-cooling-warming process. Admittedly things haven't gone perfectly as far as adherence to the instructions, but I have to imagine perfect adherence is nearly impossible, especially if you have kids, etc.

The incubator has been extremely unreliable, and it was around $1,200 if memory serves. I've had to set up remote video monitoring when I was away because I needed to be able to see what was going on in case the incubator went rogue, which happened often. By "rogue," I mean it would turn to heat-mode and wouldn't stop, driving temps up 10+ Celsius in minutes. That's a whole story in and of itself. But, Garrett mentioned that the incubator is temperamental so it's nothing unique to my situation.

As of today, August 15th, 2016, the eggs have been incubating for approximately 482 days, which is nearly 16 months.

Findings:

- Contrary to my initial thought, the eggs within the slightly damp sphagnum moss haven't done well. They are under-sized and have experienced a "die-off" or "spoilage" rate of around 60%-70%. I do not expect any of them to hatch. Fortunately I only had a few eggs in the sphagnum (10-12 or so). My strong belief was that the sphagnum's anti-bacterial properties would be advantageous, and the acidic nature would help break-down the egg shells with greater efficiency. It appears I was hugely incorrect.

- The rest of the eggs have been incubating in vermiculite, and have done much better. I've only lost four eggs from the vermiculite boxes, and they appeared to be infertile as they just shriveled up into nothing, while the rest of the eggs seemed to flourish.

- I did an "autopsy" on one of the poor-looking sphagnum moss eggs and, while the embryo was so developed it actually startled me, it was also very dead. Any theories on what may have happened are welcome. The egg to the right of it in the picture was filled with mush, yet never rotted after nearly 16 months.

Concerns

- Some eggs in the vermiculite are much larger than the others. There are a few that are reminiscent of a small golf ball, literaly gigantic, while the rest are closer to the size of a quarter. I thought I'd seen big cham eggs with some of the cristatus eggs I've hatched out, but they are nothing in comparison. I have no experience with these eggs so I don't know how large they should be at this stage.

Thanks,
Sam
Backwater Reptiles

 

[bobcochran]

It must be tough regulating temps in Sacto area for parsons. Thanks for the info.

 

[Motherlode Chameleon]

Sam

Great to hear from you and an update about this clutch of Yellow Lip Calumma parsonii parsonii. Why did you stay away from perilite as a medium from this clutch of eggs if you were experimenting?

Best Regards
Jeremy A. Rich

 

[Extensionofgreen]

I have incubated eggs in sphagnum moss and perlite mixture, using the long fibered type, moistened with pure water and wrung out, but also on coir, peat moss, vermiculite and perlite mixtures, and so forth. I found ventilation and moisture control to always be more critical than media. I suspect the source of the moss may have been contaminated with spores or another issue, such as it being to moist may have been a concern.
I don't have experience incubating parsonii eggs, yet, so my experience is not honed to this single species, but I would think that room temperature incubation of 70-76F with a slight dip or rise would yield satisfactory results, especially if you utilized a room that had natural, gentle fluctuations in temperature. I think an incubator that is so prone to sudden temperature variations is not ideal and perhaps room temperature is more stable.

 

[savage13]

I'm hope that think go well with your remaining eggs.. Myself i wouldn't try to experiment especially with parsonii but we learn from are mistakes and don't kick your self i well have kill opportunity that you are have to successfully hatch out parsonii good luck bro keep us posted...

 

[BackwaterReptiles]

Jeremy - Those with experience breeding parsonii were like turtles retreating into their shell when asked for advice. It's sad really. However, Garrett was extremely transparent and gave me the exact method he's used, so that's what I implemented (vermiculite). He had a great tip of covering the eggs to avoid mold, which has worked extremely well. Anyhow, I figured why mess with a recipe that's worked. The sphagnum moss experiment just made so much sense to me that I had to try it with a few eggs.

Extensionofgreen - The reason I used this incubator is because it's been used successfully with parsonii eggs before, and it operates to a tenth of a degree. Exo terra incubators are garbage, as are most of the ready-made ones available for <$300. I always laugh because the Exo Terra incubator comes with a lighter adapter. So random.

 

[Action Jackson]

Could you post a picture of one of your quarter sized eggs and one of your biggest eggs next to a quarter for size reference?

Also was the issue you experienced with your incubator a result of changing the temperature and having the incubator ramp up temps or was it random?

 

[Extensionofgreen]

I'm not questioning the choice of incubator, at all. I just know that a wide range of reptile eggs hatch successfully at room temperature, perhaps with a small amount of tweaking, such as using a warmer than usual or cooler than usual situation, depending on species. I've hatched melleri and bearded dragons at room temps. Melleri and deremensis eggs incubated in my basement at fairly low temps of 68-74F and bearded dragon eggs at room temps upstairs, where I made the room slightly warmer for my roaches and such.
I think that people are trying to replicate a natural diapause and that's good, but I wonder if the eggs would just do what they need to know kept around 68-74F at all times, in a stable room.
I agree, there aren't enough parsonii keepers outlining their care, their hatching methods, cycling methods, feeding schedules, misting schedules, temps, and supplementation schedules. People have to make assumptions based on natural habitat statistics and the animal's size and weight.

 

[BackwaterReptiles]

Action Jackson - Yes, with the incubator, if you adjust the temperature up or down, it can send it into a tailspin. By that I mean, it will seemingly randomly start warming (never cooling though) and won't stop until I intervene. The worst is if you adjust the "Hi/Lo" limits--most of the time it will initiate the warming sequence and the alarm will sound once it's above the high limit for five minutes. I then have to manually adjust the "hi" limit to above the current temperature, then it will gradually start cooling back down.

My wife and I were overnight in Napa a few months ago, and my mother-in-law called at 9:30am saying the incubator alarm had been going off for two hours. My wife asked why she didn't call sooner and she said, "I didn't want to wake you guys." I asked what the temperature was, and she said 29.4C, at a time when my hi/lo was 14C/12C. It probably didn't do anything but frustrating nonetheless. It's happened countless times.

Here's a picture of one of the bigger eggs versus one of the "normal-sized" eggs. Perhaps the big one is in fact the "normal" size at this stage--again, no clue because I have no information on this part of the process.

Admittedly the larger egg may not look like much, but I can honestly say, after incubating thousands of cham eggs, the bottom one in this picture is the largest I've ever seen, by far. And it's not even the biggest one in the clutch (but close enough). That's my thumb and I'm around 210lbs.

Extensionofgreen - Oh I didn't think you were questioning the incubator, and I totally agree with your room temp strategy--that's all I do with chams. This is the first time I've ever used an incubator, and solely because of the apparent need to cool them down. I tend to adhere to the "simpler is better" mentality when it comes to eggs, but in this case I felt I needed to follow what had worked well for someone else (Garrett). Even if none hatch, Garrett has been great conveying information and it obviously works for him.

Thanks,
Sam

 

[Garrett]

Parsonii won't hatch successfully just keeping them at room temps, they require a cooling diapause down into the 50s during winter, hence the need for a cooling incubator, or some other strategy to achieve this. I don't know why this species is so particular with it's incubation parameters, it might have something to do with the unusually long incubation and the egg development requiring more specific triggers to advance properly through the incubation timeline. Many early attempts at hatching these used a constant low 70s incubation with poor results.
This particular incubator is a heating and cooling model, with a built in circadian rhythm program. When it works, it works great, when it doesn't it's kind of frustrating. Once you figure out the bugs it works quite well, I've hatched two clutches with mine and have more eggs in there incubating, it's been running 24/7 since late 2012.
I know others have used a room temp during summer, and something like a root cellar during winter strategy that has also been successful.
From your pics Sam, both of those eggs are within the range I've seen hatch, the sizes seem to vary quite a bit.
They do shrink down by half or more right before hatching.Here's a pic of my last egg this year, It's taking it's sweet time to hatch.
And if you're lucky, what's waiting for you inside!

 

[Garrett]

I think the larger eggs might be taking up too much water, I've had better luck using the course grade vermiculite (grade 4). My early experiments with the fine grade like you're using seemed to keep the eggs too wet, although I've never had an egg get golfball size! Maybe Craig has some insight on this.

 

[Action Jackson]

I think the larger eggs might be taking up too much water, I've had better luck using the course grade vermiculite (grade 4). My early experiments with the fine grade like you're using seemed to keep the eggs too wet, although I've never had an egg get golfball size! Maybe Craig has some insight on this.

I too have seen quite a variation in eggs size. I think the bigger eggs are taking up more water but they should still hatch fine. I would say my largest egg was quarter sized or like a quail egg. I use grade four Vermiculite also.

 

[Action Jackson]

Action Jackson - Yes, with the incubator, if you adjust the temperature up or down, it can send it into a tailspin. By that I mean, it will seemingly randomly start warming (never cooling though) and won't stop until I intervene. The worst is if you adjust the "Hi/Lo" limits--most of the time it will initiate the warming sequence and the alarm will sound once it's above the high limit for five minutes. I then have to manually adjust the "hi" limit to above the current temperature, then it will gradually start cooling back down.

My wife and I were overnight in Napa a few months ago, and my mother-in-law called at 9:30am saying the incubator alarm had been going off for two hours. My wife asked why she didn't call sooner and she said, "I didn't want to wake you guys." I asked what the temperature was, and she said 29.4C, at a time when my hi/lo was 14C/12C. It probably didn't do anything but frustrating nonetheless. It's happened countless times.

Here's a picture of one of the bigger eggs versus one of the "normal-sized" eggs. Perhaps the big one is in fact the "normal" size at this stage--again, no clue because I have no information on this part of the process.

Admittedly the larger egg may not look like much, but I can honestly say, after incubating thousands of cham eggs, the bottom one in this picture is the largest I've ever seen, by far. And it's not even the biggest one in the clutch (but close enough). That's my thumb and I'm around 210lbs.

Extensionofgreen - Oh I didn't think you were questioning the incubator, and I totally agree with your room temp strategy--that's all I do with chams. This is the first time I've ever used an incubator, and solely because of the apparent need to cool them down. I tend to adhere to the "simpler is better" mentality when it comes to eggs, but in this case I felt I needed to follow what had worked well for someone else (Garrett). Even if none hatch, Garrett has been great conveying information and it obviously works for him.

Thanks,
Sam

Thanks for taking the time to post that Sam.

 

[Thomaskoch]

Thanks for sharing knowledge and experiences about these amazing animals, my favourite species. Hope I am not hijacking the thread - Garret, will you make/have you made a guide on how to breed Parsonii based on your experience? Would love to see more specific info on how to breed Parsonii, as I am in the process of starting up a breeding group myself.

BR Thomas

 

[Garrett]

If I posted all my secrets everybody would be breeding parsons!
One of the best threads on the subject was posted here on the forums by Andreas (rantotro.)
Lots of really good information in there, he goes from start to finish on breeding up through incubation and hatching, and care of the babies. I'm doing things a little bit differently but it's essentially the same process.
https://www.chameleonforums.com/threads/calumma-parsonii-parsonii.84839/

 

[Thomaskoch]

Thank you Garrett, I read the thread by Andreas and it is very nice to see people share information like this. But it would also be nice to hear other variants on how to breed Parsonii, since there to my knowledge are still a lot of unknown factors being investigated. The more experiences shared, the easier it will be to establish a guide on how to keep and breed Parsonii. And I think this species deserves the best possible care considering how many specimens have already suffered in captivity.