What the Wild Caught Trade Could Look Like

[jajeanpierre]

I recently posted a thread, "Why I Hate The Wild Caught Trade," with the necropsy photos of a Mellers that I bought less than 24 hours after arriving from Tanzania. He died a week later and the necropsy photos showed he had no fat pad so had been declining for a long long time before he came into the US.

I was at the importers again today to look at the last Mellers for jpowell86. I saw this young male wild-caught panther who looked the picture of health. He just glowed. My picture doesn't do him justice. There wasn't a mark on him, not even a nose rub.

This is what wild caughts could look like on import.

 

[pgr7]

Beautiful

 

[KLowery88]

I wish the African mainland chameleons got as good a treatment as the Madagascar species.

 

[jajeanpierre]

I wish the African mainland chameleons got as good a treatment as the Madagascar species.

It's all about money. A $20 Melleri won't get the care a Parsons or Panther will.

 

[bobcochran]

Janet, what did the rest of the Pardalis look like? What about the other species?
Being there to choose the reptiles you're willing to purchase makes all the difference in the world!
I've looked over a lot of freshly imported chameleon shipments and their health and appearance was from great to unacceptable.
If everybody could go and inspect the lizards at the importers or wholesalers facility before purchasing and reject what was unacceptable
the importer would be stuck with all the poor quality animals and it would hurt his bottom line. For sure this would raise the overall quality
of the imported animals and increase our success and survival rates.

 

[jajeanpierre]

Janet, what did the rest of the Pardalis look like? What about the other species?
Being there to choose the reptiles you're willing to purchase makes all the difference in the world!
I've looked over a lot of freshly imported chameleon shipments and their health and appearance was from great to unacceptable.
If everybody could go and inspect the lizards at the importers or wholesalers facility before purchasing and reject what was unacceptable
the importer would be stuck with all the poor quality animals and it would hurt his bottom line. For sure this would raise the overall quality
of the imported animals and increase our success and survival rates.

I don't really pay attention to Pardalis, although I always have a look at any big male wild caughts just to see them so I get an eye for what they are supposed to look like. The wild caughts have a very different look than I see in the captive breds posted here. I don't know what he had left--this guy caught my eye because he glowed on that branch and was nicely filled out. My picture doesn't do him justice. I couldn't find a mark on him and I took pictures of his face from the front--not a rub on his lips or rostral crest.

And, yes, I sure like to be able to go to the importers and pick through a shipment. It also helps that I get them directly from the importer and drive them home. Even being there, you don't always get it right. Joel thought the Melleri I picked up had a chance when we bought him and got him home to my house. He lasted a week. We left behind one little Melleri that I picked up today for Joel today and she looks fantastic--I am pretty sure she didn't look very good when we looked over the shipment the day after it arrived.

 

[wavingsnail]

Do you find that the wc males seem to have a more pronounced rostral crest?

It seems like the more "Americanized" (can't think of the proper term to explain multiple generations of captive bred animals) they become, the smaller the crest.

But maybe it's just me.

 

[jajeanpierre]

Panthers are not a species I am interested in, so I really haven't paid close attention but they do look very different from captive bred animals.

I think captive-breds are stunted in some way. It's more than their rostral crest. The wild caughts' heads seem longer. Their bodies aren't as blocky. They are much more athletic looking, that's for sure.

There is a huge difference in size and shape/proportion between the original wild caught macaws and the macaws now being produced in captivity. The captive breds are much smaller with a larger head in proportion to their body. This is only a few generations removed from the wild so it isn't genetics; it's sub optimal conditions, probably nutrition.

The biggest panther I ever saw was a recently imported wild caught. He had a stool the size of a mouse in his cage. He was massive.

 

[Virgil1972]

Panthers are not a species I am interested in, so I really haven't paid close attention but they do look very different from captive bred animals.

I think captive-breds are stunted in some way. It's more than their rostral crest. The wild caughts' heads seem longer. Their bodies aren't as blocky. They are much more athletic looking, that's for sure.

There is a huge difference in size and shape/proportion between the original wild caught macaws and the macaws now being produced in captivity. The captive breds are much smaller with a larger head in proportion to their body. This is only a few generations removed from the wild so it isn't genetics; it's sub optimal conditions, probably nutrition.

The biggest panther I ever saw was a recently imported wild caught. He had a stool the size of a mouse in his cage. He was massive.

My best guess would be because the captive breed population does not have the same genetic diversity that they have in the wild. There are a lot of panthers out there from the major breeders that breed the same animals over and over.

 

[savage13]

My best guess would be because the captive breed population does not have the same genetic diversity that they have in the wild. There are a lot of panthers out there from the major breeders that breed the same animals over and over.

No truer words have been spoken.. I agree some animals just get breed over and it comes to a point that bloodlines would eventually cross each other that why new blood in wild-caught animal is a good thing..

 

[wavingsnail]

Panthers are not a species I am interested in, so I really haven't paid close attention but they do look very different from captive bred animals.

I think captive-breds are stunted in some way. It's more than their rostral crest. The wild caughts' heads seem longer. Their bodies aren't as blocky. They are much more athletic looking, that's for sure.

There is a huge difference in size and shape/proportion between the original wild caught macaws and the macaws now being produced in captivity. The captive breds are much smaller with a larger head in proportion to their body. This is only a few generations removed from the wild so it isn't genetics; it's sub optimal conditions, probably nutrition.

The biggest panther I ever saw was a recently imported wild caught. He had a stool the size of a mouse in his cage. He was massive.

Thanks for the reply. If only we could do with chameleons what we've done with beardies. I'd love a massive Jackson or panther like they have with the German giant bearded dragons.

 

[jajeanpierre]

My best guess would be because the captive breed population does not have the same genetic diversity that they have in the wild. There are a lot of panthers out there from the major breeders that breed the same animals over and over.

If they all start off with quite large and elongated rostral crests in the wild and those crests are gone in a few generations, I doubt it is genetic diversity that is the cause. I would be looking at something else as the cause such as nutrition or light. I believe captive breds have a different squamation than wild caughts, thinner and smaller scales, and the reason is believed to be the lower levels of light they receive in captivity.

 

[DanSB]

If they all start off with quite large and elongated rostral crests in the wild and those crests are gone in a few generations, I doubt it is genetic diversity that is the cause. I would be looking at something else as the cause such as nutrition or light. I believe captive breds have a different squamation than wild caughts, thinner and smaller scales, and the reason is believed to be the lower levels of light they receive in captivity.

We see differences in all sorts of captive bred animals vs wild and if we're seeing it is F1 - F2 there is no way it can be genetic diversity, you are right.

I have often thought much of this is due to lack of natural sunlight and poor diet like you said. I always have 3 - 6 feeder species and that still pales to what they get in nature.

As far as what Wild Caught trade could be, what if an importer offered a bonus to the exporter for healthy animals? I could imagine offering as much as 100% more for a good looking healthy animal. Each animal that dies is lost profit so paying more just makes sense.

 

[Carlton]

No truer words have been spoken.. I agree some animals just get breed over and it comes to a point that bloodlines would eventually cross each other that why new blood in wild-caught animal is a good thing..

And, wild chams are getting varied nutrition from insects that are eating a variety of foods they have evolved along with, are living in the habitat they evolved with, and are much more active by necessity. All these things could affect their characteristics. some of these characteristics could give them territorial and display advantages, so the more successful chams will pass the traits on to offspring. In captivity we tend to select for a very few traits like overall color or mild temperment, but not for traits like bigger rostrals, more developed spines or other features