Warning About New Madagascar Quota Species

[Mike Fisher]

I am giving some of my quad babies to the others who are working toward the same goal that I am. I could sell them but would rather see us get cb quads available here.

Pretty much same as I decided to do with Kinyongia, that's why I stopped hounding you for quads. I had such an easy time with quads in the 90's anyway, F4 before I burnt out because I was keeping too many different species. Won't be doing that again.

 

[Motherlode Chameleon]

Exept of Nasutum and Boettgeri ALL OTHERS SPECIES ARE EXTREMELY DIFFICULT TO BREED!
Reality will hit very hard and very soon but all of you will experience very soon.

I think North American keepers are ready for the opportunity especially after watching all the pictures on your thread Jurgen. We are capable over hear on the other side of the pond when it comes to breeding Madagascar Chameleons. Keepers here only had about a small window to work with many of these species during the early 1990's and it has been twenty years since they have had the opportunity to keep these species in the US. Some pre 1995 US breeders have even breed some Madagascar chameleons that I have not heard of being captive bred in Europe such as Calumma parsonii cristifer and Furcifer labordi (Ken Kalisch and Ardi Abate). These great species are difficult species to breed in captivity and a second opportunity to keep them in captivity demands a warning to all prospect keepers.

Kind Regards
Jeremy A. Rich

 

[kameleons jvo]

I think North American keepers are ready for the opportunity especially after watching all the pictures on your thread Jurgen. We are capable over hear on the other side of the pond when it comes to breeding Madagascar Chameleons. Keepers here only had about a small window to work with many of these species during the early 1990's and it has been twenty years since they have had the opportunity to keep these species in the US. Some pre 1995 US breeders have even breed some Madagascar chameleons that I have not heard of being captive bred in Europe such as Calumma parsonii cristifer and Furcifer labordi (Ken Kalisch and Ardi Abate). These great species are difficult species to breed in captivity and a second opportunity to keep them in captivity demands a warning to all prospect keepers.

Kind Regards
Jeremy A. Rich

I wish you all the luck!(Cristifer is bred in Germany)

 

[Motherlode Chameleon]

I wish you all the luck!(Cristifer is bred in Germany)

That is great news! I am demanding pictures on your thread if you can located any?

 

[kameleons jvo]

That is great news! I am demanding pictures on your thread if you can located any?

I posted several pics of breeding pairs of Cristifer (i guess you have to take a look)

 

[Todnedo]

I think we should start breeding programs for these new to the trade species.
For instance a breeder is selected, members make contributions to the program to purchase the animals and other expenses. Offspring would be available to members or sold to further finance the project.

 

[kameleons jvo]

I stared a procedure to export cb furcifer minors to the US(10 unrelated juveniles pairs).
First part for CITES is done it will take a couple of months before i have an answer.
I hope around September i have an answer.

 

[Todnedo]

I stared a procedure to export cb furcifer minors to the US(10 unrelated juveniles pairs).
First part for CITES is done it will take a couple of months before i have an answer.
I hope around September i have an answer.

Dont forget about Furcifer balteatus!!

 

[kameleons jvo]

Dont forget about Furcifer balteatus!!

Only 4 hatched,from minor i have more than 100 eggs so its more likely to send these

 

[ataraxia]

I think we should start breeding programs for these new to the trade species.
For instance a breeder is selected, members make contributions to the program to purchase the animals and other expenses. Offspring would be available to members or sold to further finance the project.

That is a great idea!

Trace, i dont think it is the fact of singling out these species in general, even some of these that are coming in will just not be appealing to the majority of the buying public. Quantity allowed to be exported and the price of the import will affect heavily the outcome of some species. Like senegals, flapnecks, etc. Not very many have motivation of producing animals at a (What is affected by the wild caught import pricing) $20 wholesale price.

 

[Chameleonmaster]

I agree with Trace, there's no reason for senegals, flapneck, and mellers (off the top of my head) to be imported in the thousands. No animal should be imported that high in numbers. I hope they all end up in good hands and in big breeding groups, good luck to everyone that gets them.

 

[CarlC]

I stared a procedure to export cb furcifer minors to the US(10 unrelated juveniles pairs).
First part for CITES is done it will take a couple of months before i have an answer.
I hope around September i have an answer.

Carl

 

[Montium]

Okay, I'll ask the question. For those that would like to see a zero quota. Do you think they will not go extinct in Madagascar? Eventually that country will eat itself, it's too poor and the poor will continue to eat thousands of Radiated tortoises and burn the trees for charcoal or clear the land for farming no matter what a map says about a National forest or private land.

I think the only real chance at survival many of the native species have is private breeding programs. Zoos won't do it and neither will business. The only way business would do it is if they could turn enough profit. One way for that would be breeding farms in the right climate zones. Without a strong, stable government most won't even chance it.

So the answer is what? take some imagined moral high road and let them all die? I would agree that just shotgunning these animals on the general market is a bad thing yet at the same time those that have been waiting for something like this have probably already spoken with suppliers and bought out the quotas. If they haven't then they are crazy. 300 Parsons is not a big number, globally.

 

[ataraxia]

Mods Please Delete.

 

[ataraxia]

Mods please delete.

 

[Montium]

Well to each their own. I would much rather see an organized attempt at serious breeding that letting them be killed off in the wild. Part of the biggest setback for most breeders is the fact that nobody talks about what worked for them and what didn't. Most hold onto the information like it's a state secret. If you plan on cornering the market that's great but you will need an awful lot of breeders to do so, far more than the quota will allow.

Without a group effort I'd say you aren't going very far with either group but then I no longer work with either of those. Maybe you will have a breakthrough or maybe they will all be dead this time next year. That's chameleons and more to the point, that's the secret world of chameleon breeding. How many people on here have fairly large groups of chameleons and you seldom hear anything from them. You see the odd photo or comment but unless you have the decoder ring or secret handshake you aren't going to get much info from them. This really doesn't help the furthering of the husbandry. I am wondering if it's the same across the pond.

This is the biggest reason I miss ADCHAM there was solid advice, with all the mistakes. Sure the emails still trickle out here and there but nothing like it used to be.

I would be all for licensing of breeders, I hold one for tortoises, and then only license holders could import chameleons. Ban the sale of them in shops that are not owned by a license holder, much the same way the CBW license works.

 

[Montium]

This is not intended to poke fun as i was sadden by the deaths. I personally, really wanted to see something come of it. This is to open the eyes up of those that think small groups here and there will make a impact. Look at what happened to the last Bradypodion import.

I was involved in the one Jared Cain did and had very little success. While I love the little chams, I do not think I would work with them again unless I got into full time fly breeding. Plus the little ones do not tend to have a long lifespan so you are under the gun to produce and have everything right, right from the start.

 

[Montium]

BTW this is where self regulation would be a good thing, the same as the scuba industry does. DOT makes the rules for the cylinders but the industry self regulates the licensing.

 

[ataraxia]

This is the way i look at it. There is no regulation on keeping and these animals will be spread all over the globe sold to whoever. They are not threatened at the moment. If and when the island completely engorges on its own natural resources to the point of threatening a species. Yes, i see the point to get some animals in the right hands to help save a species. Till then, i see no point in exporting in this fashion.

 

[Montium]

Ah, a wait until the ship is sinking approach. As I said before, to each their own. I hope the other folks that have large numbers of adult parsons take advantage. They seem to be getting better and better at the husbandry. Hopefully they will form a viable breeding program sooner than later.