Warning About New Madagascar Quota Species

[Motherlode Chameleon]

Keeping chameleons in captivity is a privilege of accomplished conservation goals. The greater majority of these species that are listed as new quota species are the two least threatened listings given by the IUCN. They are a listing of Least Concern or Near Threatened. If these species are near extinction they belong in their native habitat as chameleons have never had problems reproducing in there native habitat. The main problems with them reproducing is keepers trying to breed them in captivity. People preparing for these new quotas by starting breeding groups goes without saying and I encourage keepers to start these groups before the chameleons arrive. However if you want to conserve chameleons in the wild and prevent the extinction of some of the endangered species. The best way is to make contributions or some other type of support to conserve as much chameleon habitat as possible. Captive breeding takes pressure off collecting from wild chameleon populations and should be the first option for people looking for specimens unless they require more genetics for breeding. However the Chameleon Forums is experienced enough that we should prepare our breeding programs and prepare for the demand that these new quotas are going to create for new captive bred Brookesia, Calumma, and Furcifer species.

Jeremy A. Rich

 

[showjet95]

I will say the members here who are advising great caution, need for the rest of us to listen carefully! If a person wants to work with one of the seldom seen species, they should commit fully. Don't buy one pair and hope for success. Unless you are prepared and have the resources to purchase a minimum of 3 pair, don't get them. Very likely you would just be dooming the chams you buy.

I have committed to bringing cb quads to the US. I am giving some of my quad babies to the others who are working toward the same goal that I am. I could sell them but would rather see us get cb quads available here.

What I am saying is, think before you buy. These are not trophy chameleons, they need to be the basis of a breeding program. Start talking others with the goal being several of you working with the same chams so you can get bloodlines going to further that chams availability in the US.

Just needed to add my opinion on how these chams coming in for the first time, should be viewed,

...Amen...

 

[Motherlode Chameleon]

I wish you all the luck!(Cristifer is bred in Germany)

Ken was the first one to breed Calumma parsonii cristifer though. I have got the CIN that states when they hatched. If I recall he bred his Calumma parsonii cristifer's in 1994. He was the first to bred Calumma parsonii parsonii and Calumma parsonii cristifer in captivity. Many other US keepers had great results with Furcifer minor for multiple generations too. I hope for a restoration and delisting of Furcifer minor since that species does great in captivity.

 

[CarlC]

Jeremy who else had luck with F. minor? I know of only two people including myself who got them to F1. We ran out of unrelated blood. The few unrelated WC males that were still around were old and proved to not breed. The few females I brought to Germany even died out because of a lack of males to breed them.

Carl

 

[CarlC]

Susan if you are reading this thread PLEASE PRETTY PLEASE bring back ADCHAM.

Carl

 

[ataraxia]

Can someone private message me the names/numbers/emails of the possible importers of these chameleons. Also, if anyone has any good contacts for importers of other reptiles. I would greatly appreciate that too.

 

[Trace]

Of course there are always animals listed on the annual CITES quotes that are never exported for whatever reason (no F1’s produced, not enough found etc.) Just because they are listed doesn’t necessarily mean they will be exported and/or in the numbers quoted. We shouldn’t rule out that possibility with these new species either.

 

[Motherlode Chameleon]

I’m glad there is a dialogue started about these new species and I certainly agree with what is being said so far. There are some things to consider first; who is going to regulate getting these species into “experienced” hands? Who deems someone experienced? Why are we not saying this about the thousands of other imports every year like Flapnecks and Senegals? Why is there that dichotomy? Our track record with establishing chameleons in captivity long term is abysmal.

The keeping of animals, not just reptiles, is purely money driven. It is the second largest illegal trade in volume after narcotics. Anybody with 2000 bucks can buy a Parsons whether they can keep it alive or not. There will be honest dealers or breeders out there that will send their animals to caring homes but there will always be the people who are in it to make a buck and there will always be people who buy these animals purely for status.

That is not entirely accurate for North American keepers as Dooley stated. We have got the Malagasy species Furcifer lateralis, Furcifer pardalis, and I know of one breeder who is not a member to these forums who has bred to the best of my knowledge F2 Furcifer oustaleti. As well their are a couple of keepers that have got good stables of Calumma parsonii.

As far as African species there were a couple breeders that were accomplished with Kinyongia matschiei and multituberculata that moved on due to starting families. However other keepers seem to be picking up where they left off. There are a couple working towards captive bred populations of Trioceros quadricornis and montium. As well there are the Chamaeleo calyptratus breeders. That is a good start.

Jeremy who else had luck with F. minor? I know of only two people including myself who got them to F1. We ran out of unrelated blood. The few unrelated WC males that were still around were old and proved to not breed. The few females I brought to Germany even died out because of a lack of males to breed them.

Carl

Carl I am going to send you a PM.

Of course there are always animals listed on the annual CITES quotes that are never exported for whatever reason (no F1’s produced, not enough found etc.) Just because they are listed doesn’t necessarily mean they will be exported and/or in the numbers quoted. We shouldn’t rule out that possibility with these new species either.

I have not seen hundreds of Chamaeleo gracilis, senegalensis or Kinyongia multituberculata at importers or pictures at imports as I used to see in the past. As well I concur with your statement with a lack of demand these species quotas are not used to the complete quota number. However I have not seen the import numbers. This is something I want to research though even though. I think it is an accurate statement as most of these species seem to be the least desirable species to reptile keepers wherever you go (Chamaeleo gracilis and senegalensis).

Another consideration these quotas may not stay wild caught quotas. They may turn into farmed and ranched quotas once reptile operations start supplying a established/larger Madagascar market.

 

[Motherlode Chameleon]

Another warning, when buying Parsons Chameleon I highly recommend buying juveniles only not wild caught adults. It is a concept called fecundity and applies to the conservation of long lived and late maturing species of chameleons such as Calumma parsonii parsonii. The idea is if a juvenile is collected from the wild they can be replaced in one to two years by next years hatchlings. While if an adult is collected where they reach adult size at a later age in the wild than in captivity. It could take five to ten years due to fecundity and recruitment to happen for replacement adults to replace removed adults in the wild. By buying only younger Parsonii this problem won't become a problem since breeding adults are never removed and breeding populations should stay stable if some of the juveniles are left to mature.

Best Regards
Jeremy A. Rich

 

[Chris Anderson]

Jeremy who else had luck with F. minor? I know of only two people including myself who got them to F1. We ran out of unrelated blood. The few unrelated WC males that were still around were old and proved to not breed. The few females I brought to Germany even died out because of a lack of males to breed them.

Carl

I'd have to refer back to my CiN issues for the hatch announcements, but I only really remember you and Donovan Swafford breeding them. Was that who you were referring to?

Susan if you are reading this thread PLEASE PRETTY PLEASE bring back ADCHAM.

Carl

The ADCHAM email list still exists and the website can be found using a webarchive link: http://web.archive.org/web/20080731141334/http://adcham.com/

I’m glad there is a dialogue started about these new species and I certainly agree with what is being said so far. There are some things to consider first; who is going to regulate getting these species into “experienced” hands? Who deems someone experienced? Why are we not saying this about the thousands of other imports every year like Flapnecks and Senegals? Why is there that dichotomy? Our track record with establishing chameleons in captivity long term is abysmal.

The keeping of animals, not just reptiles, is purely money driven. It is the second largest illegal trade in volume after narcotics. Anybody with 2000 bucks can buy a Parsons whether they can keep it alive or not. There will be honest dealers or breeders out there that will send their animals to caring homes but there will always be the people who are in it to make a buck and there will always be people who buy these animals purely for status.

That is not entirely accurate for North American keepers as Dooley stated. We have got the Malagasy species Furcifer lateralis, Furcifer pardalis, and I know of one breeder who is not a member to these forums who has bred to the best of my knowledge F2 Furcifer oustaleti. As well their are a couple of keepers that have got good stables of Calumma parsonii.

As far as African species there were a couple breeders that were accomplished with Kinyongia matschiei and multituberculata that moved on due to starting families. However other keepers seem to be picking up where they left off. There are a couple working towards captive bred populations of Trioceros quadricornis and montium. As well there are the Chamaeleo calyptratus breeders. That is a good start.

Sorry, but that is an absolutely abysmal record considering the number of species that have been imported with regularity into the captive market over the years. That's not to say people shouldn't make every effort to establish these and other species (quite the opposite in fact), but lets just be honest about it and not bullish!t anyone! The reality is our track record for establishing chameleon species that do not need a constant influx of wild caught blood sucks!

As has been already mentioned in this thread, serious effort should be made for these (and many other) species to make sure they are established in captivity. If nothing else, doing so would lessen the pressure on wild populations and ensure better access to healthy specimens that should thrive in captivity. This should be a goal for all species, but if excitement about these species that have not been seen legally in so long will help push people to make serious efforts to do so, excellent!

Chris

 

[Motherlode Chameleon]

Sorry, but that is an absolutely abysmal record considering the number of species that have been imported with regularity into the captive market over the years. That's not to say people shouldn't make every effort to establish these and other species (quite the opposite in fact), but lets just be honest about it and not bullish!t anyone! The reality is our track record for establishing chameleon species that do not need a constant influx of wild caught blood sucks!

As has been already mentioned in this thread, serious effort should be made for these (and many other) species to make sure they are established in captivity. If nothing else, doing so would lessen the pressure on wild populations and ensure better access to healthy specimens that should thrive in captivity. This should be a goal for all species, but if excitement about these species that have not been seen legally in so long will help push people to make serious efforts to do so, excellent!

Chris

Who is trying to bullsh!@# anyone. Many of the chameleon species are not available or available only in limited numbers and irregular shipments to keepers in North America. Especially for a couple year period of time from Tanzania, and irregular imports of West African species at best such as Trioceros quadricornis, along with extremely rare imports of Bradypodions. While for Madagascar chameleons we have got colonies going of breeding groups for about 4 out of 5 legal species available in the USA. With not nearly as many species to work with as compared to European keepers (because for the most part we adhered to the 1995 CITES ban) and irregular imports the last couple years I absolutely say we are not doing abysmally. With the disbanding of the CIN and the reforming and recovery of chameleon breeding groups in North America through the Chameleon Forums I think we are doing good. Lets start these new Madagascar quotas on a positive note!!!

Jeremy A. Rich

 

[Chris Anderson]

Jeremy,

You are making a bunch of excuses for why our success has been as bad as it is, when those excuses are actually indicative of just how abysmal our success rate in establishing species truly is!

You cite "the disbanding of the CIN and the reforming and recovery of chameleon breeding groups in North America through the Chameleon Forums" but I'll remind you that the CiN was disbanded in large part because of just how abysmal our track record was! The editor grew to believe chameleons should not be kept in captivity because of how bad most keepers were, the rampant and uncontrolled trade in wild caught animals, and our inability to establish the vast majority of those species in any form that could withstand not having a continual inflow of wild caught animals. As for whatever subsequent recovery of chameleon breeding groups in North America you are referring to, at this same time there were numerous online communities, websites, books, online magazines, etc., so while it was a terrible resource to lose, there was hardly a recovery. I think things have improved over the years in a lot of ways, but you act like we got screwed somehow and all that has been happening is a recovery from that, which isn't the case at all.

Further, Tanzania shutting down for a few years is a perfect example of just how abysmal our track record is! The United States alone accounts for over 64% of all documented international trade in chameleons and Tanzania is the single largest exporter (on average 44% of the annual international trade between 2004 and 2010). Tanzania has exported over 345,000 chameleons since 1977 but almost 300,000 of those were from 1996 and 2010! Among those exports were dozens of amazing species, but when Tanzania halted export in August of 2011, it didn't take long for all but a couple species to completely disappear from the market! The success stories of it that you are referencing, however, include 2 or 3 K. matschiei clutches over the last decade! I have great hope for K. multituberculata to continue to remain established in the captive market here long term, but while 2-3 clutches of K. matschiei is a welcome event and I applaud the individuals working with them for what they have accomplished, it is hardly evidence of doing well when you look at the big picture and we are a long way off yet from calling this species established. What about the dozens of other species that were regularly exported from Tanzania? What about the thousands of C. dilepis, C. gracilis, K. tavetana, R. temporalis, R. nchisiensis, R. uluguruensis, T. bitaeniatus, T. deremensis, T. fuelleborni, T. j. merumontanus, T. sternfeldi, and T. werneri that were imported? When Tanzania shut down for a few years, those species largely disappeared from the captive market. That is not a good track record!

Additionally, you mentioned irregular imports from other regions, specifically west Africa. I'll remind you, however, that we have been sustaining captive populations of those species on borrowed time. From 2005-2011, more than half of all documented exports of a number of Cameroonian chameleons (T. quadricornis, T. pfefferi, T. "wiedersheimi", and T. montium, for example) was via exports from a country (Equatorial Guinea) where these species do not occur and for which there are no reported imports into this country. This illicit trade has gone so far as to export T. montium under permits for T. feae. While people are working on establishing breeding groups of these species, this isn't the first time (for these or most other species), and we still have a long way to go before these can be called successful. That said, when more than half of the animals we have available to us over the last 9 years have been from dubious sources and we're still trying to establish breeding groups, our track record is hardly what could be called a success story!

As I've said, I don't think any of this is an excuse not to put every effort we have into establishing these Malagasy (and other) species. I do not, however, think we should kid ourselves into thinking our track record is anything other than it is because if anything, this should be alarming enough to push us to try harder!

Chris

 

[ataraxia]

I'll remind you that the CiN was disbanded in large part because of just how abysmal our track record was! The editor grew to believe chameleons should not be kept in captivity because of how bad most keepers were, the rampant and uncontrolled trade in wild caught animals, and our inability to establish the vast majority of those species in any form that could withstand not having a continual inflow of wild caught animals.

IMO, That editor hit the head of the nail perfect.

 

[Mike Fisher]

Jthe CiN was disbanded in large part because of just how abysmal our track record was! The editor grew to believe chameleons should not be kept in captivity because of how bad most keepers were, the rampant and uncontrolled trade in wild caught animals, and our inability to establish the vast majority of those species in any form that could withstand not having a continual inflow of wild caught animals.

I agree up to a point. There are certain keepers that perfect the keeping and breeding of one species but those efforts are not being duplicated well enough by the customers that buy their animals. Then when they drop out of the hobby, those animals are no longer available.

In the mid to late 90's I was producing 300 quadricornis a year and up to F4 with them. I assumed that this species was well on its way to being established in the USA. I dropped out and within a few years, the only animals you could get were wild caught.

So when people like Chad stop breeding K. mats, or Luis stops breeding K. multi, if other keepers are not capable or willing to step in to carry the torch, then they disappear from the market. I believe that this problem is compounded by certain species being "niche" chameleons where the demand for them is not enough to compensate the breeder to break even, much less profitability. No fun to have hundreds of rare chameleons that you can't sell at a high enough price to recover the cost of producing them.

So yes, as a group, abysmal, but there are shining examples out there, we just have to learn from them a lot better and stop thinking we know it all already.

 

[Chuck G]

At this point, I think we all can agree any Parsonii coming into the country should come directly to me! As usual, the forums are highly entertaining and informative.

 

[Mike Fisher]

At this point, I think we all can agree any Parsonii coming into the country should come directly to me! As usual, the forums are highly entertaining and informative.

Speaking of entertaining....

 

[Motherlode Chameleon]

Jeremy,

You are making a bunch of excuses for why our success has been as bad as it is, when those excuses are actually indicative of just how abysmal our success rate in establishing species truly is!

You cite "the disbanding of the CIN and the reforming and recovery of chameleon breeding groups in North America through the Chameleon Forums" but I'll remind you that the CiN was disbanded in large part because of just how abysmal our track record was! The editor grew to believe chameleons should not be kept in captivity because of how bad most keepers were, the rampant and uncontrolled trade in wild caught animals, and our inability to establish the vast majority of those species in any form that could withstand not having a continual inflow of wild caught animals. As for whatever subsequent recovery of chameleon breeding groups in North America you are referring to, at this same time there were numerous online communities, websites, books, online magazines, etc., so while it was a terrible resource to lose, there was hardly a recovery. I think things have improved over the years in a lot of ways, but you act like we got screwed somehow and all that has been happening is a recovery from that, which isn't the case at all.

Further, Tanzania shutting down for a few years is a perfect example of just how abysmal our track record is! The United States alone accounts for over 64% of all documented international trade in chameleons and Tanzania is the single largest exporter (on average 44% of the annual international trade between 2004 and 2010). Tanzania has exported over 345,000 chameleons since 1977 but almost 300,000 of those were from 1996 and 2010! Among those exports were dozens of amazing species, but when Tanzania halted export in August of 2011, it didn't take long for all but a couple species to completely disappear from the market! The success stories of it that you are referencing, however, include 2 or 3 K. matschiei clutches over the last decade! I have great hope for K. multituberculata to continue to remain established in the captive market here long term, but while 2-3 clutches of K. matschiei is a welcome event and I applaud the individuals working with them for what they have accomplished, it is hardly evidence of doing well when you look at the big picture and we are a long way off yet from calling this species established. What about the dozens of other species that were regularly exported from Tanzania? What about the thousands of C. dilepis, C. gracilis, K. tavetana, R. temporalis, R. nchisiensis, R. uluguruensis, T. bitaeniatus, T. deremensis, T. fuelleborni, T. j. merumontanus, T. sternfeldi, and T. werneri that were imported? When Tanzania shut down for a few years, those species largely disappeared from the captive market. That is not a good track record!

Additionally, you mentioned irregular imports from other regions, specifically west Africa. I'll remind you, however, that we have been sustaining captive populations of those species on borrowed time. From 2005-2011, more than half of all documented exports of a number of Cameroonian chameleons (T. quadricornis, T. pfefferi, T. "wiedersheimi", and T. montium, for example) was via exports from a country (Equatorial Guinea) where these species do not occur and for which there are no reported imports into this country. This illicit trade has gone so far as to export T. montium under permits for T. feae. While people are working on establishing breeding groups of these species, this isn't the first time (for these or most other species), and we still have a long way to go before these can be called successful. That said, when more than half of the animals we have available to us over the last 9 years have been from dubious sources and we're still trying to establish breeding groups, our track record is hardly what could be called a success story!

As I've said, I don't think any of this is an excuse not to put every effort we have into establishing these Malagasy (and other) species. I do not, however, think we should kid ourselves into thinking our track record is anything other than it is because if anything, this should be alarming enough to push us to try harder!

Chris

Chris

I am not making excuses. Seems to me as your making excuses and covering why Europe has more chameleons than North America. My memory of the closing of the CIN did not happen just from the lack of breeders. It was the combination of two factors, the necessary closing of the majority of chameleon exports from Madagascar and the lack of accomplished breeding and keeping of Madagascar Chameleons, not African Chameleons. Ardi did not want to support a Black Market illegal trade from Madagascar and the abysmal importation and conservation issues that was happening in 1995 and importation and conservation issues that even until about 1999 was happening elsewhere in tropical Africa. Which I concur with her call at the time. I think the updated IUCN Red List/CITES quota system is the way to go and should be seen in West Africa if they want to continue exporting chameleons. Unregulated trade is not the way to go. However recent keepers (and some in the past) in Europe and the USA have proven that keeping long term (Me and others) and breeding (Chuck) Madagascar species is possible in the USA and Europe.

Your species list about what is being captive bred in the states is off. I know of multiple keepers that have bred F3 Trioceros deremensis in the 1990's and F2 until recently. As well we have got a Forums member who self proclaims himself a Jackson Farmer with Trioceros jacsonii jacksonii, merumontanus, and xantholophus. There is at least one breeder still breeding Kinyongia tavetana. I have known a lot of great breeder who are just now picking up the hobby again because of the breaking up of the CIN. It took me until 2009 before I found this Forums and there are many great keepers especially from Southern California, the Pacific North West and back East I have not heard from since the break up of the CIN. I have not seen T. fuellebornii available to the US keepers since about 2002.

I have always stated that I am for conservative quotas and think these high quota for species such as Kinyongia multituberculata and Chamaeleo dilepis, gracilis, should be exported in far less numbers. With the new development with the Madagascar Quotas there maybe prospects that these gross quotas in African countries may change.

I am done debating perceptions of breeding accomplishment. These new quotas are good for the hobby for keepers in North America, Europe, or Asia (regulated exports not black market exports) and may be the start of necessary updated quotas or establishment for chameleons quotas elsewhere. This is a positive.

Best Regards
Jeremy A. Rich

 

[Action Jackson]

I agree up to a point. There are certain keepers that perfect the keeping and breeding of one species but those efforts are not being duplicated well enough by the customers that buy their animals. Then when they drop out of the hobby, those animals are no longer available.

In the mid to late 90's I was producing 300 quadricornis a year and up to F4 with them. I assumed that this species was well on its way to being established in the USA. I dropped out and within a few years, the only animals you could get were wild caught.

So when people like Chad stop breeding K. mats, or Luis stops breeding K. multi, if other keepers are not capable or willing to step in to carry the torch, then they disappear from the market. I believe that this problem is compounded by certain species being "niche" chameleons where the demand for them is not enough to compensate the breeder to break even, much less profitability. No fun to have hundreds of rare chameleons that you can't sell at a high enough price to recover the cost of producing them.

So yes, as a group, abysmal, but there are shining examples out there, we just have to learn from them a lot better and stop thinking we know it all already.

I agree with this post, says the farmer.

 

[Chris Anderson]

I agree up to a point. There are certain keepers that perfect the keeping and breeding of one species but those efforts are not being duplicated well enough by the customers that buy their animals. Then when they drop out of the hobby, those animals are no longer available.

In the mid to late 90's I was producing 300 quadricornis a year and up to F4 with them. I assumed that this species was well on its way to being established in the USA. I dropped out and within a few years, the only animals you could get were wild caught.

So when people like Chad stop breeding K. mats, or Luis stops breeding K. multi, if other keepers are not capable or willing to step in to carry the torch, then they disappear from the market. I believe that this problem is compounded by certain species being "niche" chameleons where the demand for them is not enough to compensate the breeder to break even, much less profitability. No fun to have hundreds of rare chameleons that you can't sell at a high enough price to recover the cost of producing them.

So yes, as a group, abysmal, but there are shining examples out there, we just have to learn from them a lot better and stop thinking we know it all already.

You are dead on here. The actions and results of a few may be exceptional, but if it isn't maintained by the hobby as a whole, the species is not established, and thus, as an industry, our success remains abysmally low. I have the utmost respect for the success individuals have had with a variety of different species, but if when they leave or move on, if this success isn't maintained, as a hobby we have not advanced and successfully established the species. This is what ultimately needs to happen!

Chris

 

[Chris Anderson]

I am not making excuses. Seems to me as your making excuses and covering why Europe has more chameleons than North America.

Interesting perspective on what you and I have both stated in this thread. First, you absolutely were making excuses. In fact, your entire post was a list of excuses about why our success was not better than it was and how given these events we were doing well. You then went on to state that because the US has "not nearly as many species to work with as compared to European keepers (because for the most part we adhered to the 1995 CITES ban)" that we were actually doing alright. My post, on the other hand, never mentioned Europe a single time. In fact, I fail to understand how emphasizing that the US market alone is responsible for more the 64% of the global international trade is in some way covering for why the second smallest continent in the world has more chameleons than we do. Quite the opposite, in fact, as I flat out state that the US alone is responsible for more of the international trade than ANY other country, continent, etc., in the world, and that it still has not gotten us very far! Obviously it seems we have different ideas about what constitutes reading comprehension...

My memory of the closing of the CIN did not happen just from the lack of breeders.

I'm going to once again return to our fundamentally different ideas about what constitutes reading comprehension and state that this was not what I said about the closing of the CiN. Here is what I actually stated:

the CiN was disbanded in large part because of just how abysmal our track record was! The editor grew to believe chameleons should not be kept in captivity because of how bad most keepers were, the rampant and uncontrolled trade in wild caught animals, and our inability to establish the vast majority of those species in any form that could withstand not having a continual inflow of wild caught animals.

As anyone with an elementary reading level can see, I never stated it was because of a lack of breeders, but rather a multi-faceted reason that included rampant importation of wild caught chameleons and our failure to establish the vast majority of species.

It was the combination of two factors, the necessary closing of the majority of chameleon exports from Madagascar and the lack of accomplished breeding and keeping of Madagascar Chameleons, not African Chameleons.

To quote her "Letter from the Editor" from the final issue:

"This is the final issue of the CHAMELEON information Network Journal. This will come as no surprise to many of you, but some of you may not understand why I have made this decision. I decided a year ago that the time had come to close this chapter in my life, and the article CHAMELEONS in Context on page 27 should answer any questions you may have about this."​

Here are a few quotes from this article:

I support a ban on the exportation of wild-caught chameleons to the pet trade.

I am first and foremost in favor of ending the trade in wild-caught chameleons and to that end I do support the HSUS position. Those who would criticize the HSUS report should first read it with an open mind and heart. While I am saddened by the terrible fate of 770,000 imported wild-caught chameleons, they have documented the fate of more than 18,000,000 imported wild caught reptiles. I do not think anyone truly believe that the vast majority of these creatures are still alive and well in captivity.

I have always operated this organization to promote the best possible care and fair and humane treatment for captive chameleons, and the most responsible means of conserving wild chameleons, NOT to facilitate egos, whims, greed or financial interests of humans. I intend to continue exposing and denouncing the staggering magnitude of cruelty, suffering and mortality inherent in the legal and illegal reptile trade that has been hidden from the public view for so long.

I had not thought of my educational efforts in the CiN and articles in other publication as being a part of or supporting the trade in reptiles, but now I believe that it does. By publishing a journal addressing captive care, I AM promoting such activities, although I thought I was only helping reduce chameleon morbidity and mortality.

It IS somewhat black-and-white in that you cannot say that you are concerned about the survival of chameleon in nature AND buy wild-caught specimens because it depletes fragile populations that are already threatened by habitat loss, modification, or fragmentation. You can't say you love chameleons AND buy wild-caught specimens because so many die along the way for each live on that makes it into the market, and while they are alive they suffer from loss of freedom and a completely unnatural life in captivity. And more importantly, you probably can't call yourself a breeder very long without having access to a continuously arriving supply of fresh wild-caught chameleons
The only species that came close to being self-sustaining in captivity was calyptratus, but ignorant or greedy breeders regularly allowed inbreeding or sold siblings as pairs to unwitting customers. Add substandard husbandry to the mix, particularly in the area of nutrition, and you end up with tens of thousands of weak, deformed, and otherwise unhealthy chameleons dumped on the retrial pet market.

Without stock from the wild, especially gravid females, it is unlikely that there will be many individuals crowing about their "breeding successes".

In summation, I believe that a total ban on importation would result in fewer and fewer captive chameleons and that in the end, there might be some calyptratus and jacksonii breeders who hand on for awhile.

Between 1986 and 1999 778,000 chameleons (excluding Brookesia and Rhampholeon - no one knows the numbers on these) entered the commercial pet market. As I write this, it's reasonable to estimate that around one million chameleons have been exported - most died within a few months, and very few left any offspring behind in the bargain. If you think I'm wrong, please tell mw who has bred a F5 dilepis, or even a F3 senegalensis? You already know what happened with all the Malagasy species - vanished without a trace in nearly every case. This is both outrageous and unconscionable.

Based on those direct quotes of the explanation as to why Ardi shut the CiN down, there is no way to deny that the abysmal track record of establishing chameleon species in captivity was not directly and indispensably linked to the closure of the CiN!

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