Very Lethargic/possibly gravid Melleri

[Joy Leaf]

To start things off we are newer to the cham world. We picked up our Mellers (Joy)about 5 months ago without a clue on how much it took to successfully raise/care for a Melleri. Within a week though we learned quite a bit and have thankfully escaped the "1 month" time frame we have heard about the common survival rate of first timers and Mellers. We have done a bunch of reading and even attended the recent reptile show in Daytona and learned even more from experienced breeders and owners. Now our problem:

About 3 weeks ago, we noticed Joy was on the bottom of her enclosure and staying there. After a couple phone calls and a lot of reading on this forum we came to the conclusion that she was posibly gravid. She now has a private from view egg laying bin (dimensions etc below) that she can make her way to and from, from her primary enclosure as she feels she needs to. She has dug countless "test holes" and still no eggs. Her eating has slowed down tremendously from about 10-15 feeders a day to 1-5. Her drinking has also slowed tremendously. She shows no signs of wanting to head back up into her enclosure any more and even sleeps directly in the egg bin or on the dowel, just above the dirt, that leads back up into the enlosure. We now find her asleep in a half dug hole in the corner of the bin, and motivating her to even wake up now seems a challenge. Should we be worried? We feel so happy that we've made it past a month and even a shed with Joy, but now we are worried about her energy level and what seems to be any lack of chameleon motivation. Details and pics(sry some are pretty large) below:

Cage Info:
Cage Type - 2x2x4' self made, screen enclosure/lying bin, large rubbermaid container roughly 18x18x24", 9" of organic topsoil. Connected via limb to her normal enclosure.
Lighting - Reptisun 18" 5.0, ZooMed 75w basking lamp, both on from about 7a-8p
Temperature - 91 at basking, 78 at bottom, 72-74 at night. Measured with digital thermometer.
Humidity - Unknown, nothing to measure it with yet. But from reading and compared to others, 20-60% throughout the day. 4 mistings of about 2-3 mins each.
Plants - live plants, ficus
Placement - cage is in master bedroom. No fans or vents blowing directly on her. Only traffic is myself and fiance laying in bed. Top perch is roughly 6' from the floor
Location - St Augustine, FL (30 mins south of Jacksonville)

Chameleon Info:
Your Chameleon - Mellers, was told she was 2 and CB, but after talking to a lot of people we think she was WC. She has been in our care for 5 months.
Handling - Once a week. She would like more, as shes very friendly, but we try to limit our selves.
Feeding - Crickets and Superworms. 10-15 per day? Crickets AM, superworms for dinner. flukers cricket meal, some fruit, lettuce, potatoe for gutloading.
Supplements - Zoomed Reptivite and Calcium, both with d3 recently as she hasnt spent much time near her UV light. Reptivite once a week, calcium every 2 weeks.
Watering - We use a dripper, about 20oz of water with reptisafe added? We mist several times a day for about 2-3 mins, we use to see her drink all of the time.
Fecal Description - stool was normal until about 2 weeks ago. Had a very loose dropping and now has become normal, with a yellowish ending. we attribute it to her not drinking as much as she used to of course. Frequency is less, but we assume its bc she isnt eating nearly as much as she was.
History - None, shes been great over the past 5 months until she started this whole digging thing.
Current Problem - see start of post.

 

[kinyonga]

You said..."We now find her asleep in a half dug hole in the corner of the bin, and motivating her to even wake up now seems a challenge"..do you mean every night? Her head pads should be more puffy...so she might be dehydrated.

I'm not a vet so I can only offer you my best guesses as to what might be going on. She really should see a vet. It might be too cool where you have the container for her to dig in. If she is still digging every day then she still might be able to lay the eggs but if she has stopped digging then it might be that she is heading towards eggbinding. I'm wondering if the supplementing you are doing is playing a part in her problems too.

IMHO your supplement schedule needs to be improved. I would use phos.-free calcium at most feedings, a vitamin powder with a beta carotene source of vitamin A twice a month and a phos.-free calcium/D3 powder twice a month (unless she gets direct sunlight).

 

[Joy Leaf]

The surface temp in her egg laying bin is 72. Ive read here on CF that you should not provide a heat lamp in the laying bin only a "normal" light.should i maybe bring her basking lamp down and bring the temp up slightly?

We find her asleep in dug holes (head first) daily now during the middle of the afternoon. Mellers, from what ive read and heard, do not dig tunnels like most, they dig a basic hole, turn around drop the eggs and cover the hole. Also, all of her holes seem to be dug in the corners of the laying bin.

the reptivite does have vit A, but does not list beta-carotene. What specific brand/kind of supplements do you suggest and where would be the best place to buy asap. She does not get direct sun, even though she sits in front of a large window. She gets her UVB from the reptisun 5.0. We take her outside with us on occassion and she perches and basks on our shoulder, but thats only for about 10 mins at a time once a week. She shows no signs of any stress and seems to enjoy it a lot (good coloring, no resistance to going out, good temperment, etc) Should we try the "stick the lizard in the shower" method? And if so, exactly how do we go about doing that?

In addition the pics posted are recent and taken at the time of the original post.

 

[luevelvet]

To be honest, your best bet is to make an appointment with a experienced vet. If you're near the Orlando area you can try and get an appointment with Dr. Ivan Alfonso. He has a great deal of chameleon experience and may be able to induce laying with a shot etc.

She does look a bit dehydrated though, so increasing available water certainly couldn't hurt. She should be getting 10-20 mins of misting twice a day. It's a bit tedious if you don't have an automatic mister, but hydration is extremely important, especially if she is in fact a bit dehydrated.

Good luck and keep us updated,

Luis

 

[Joy Leaf]

We live about 2 hours from Orlando. We are closer to Jacksonville, FL if anyone knows a good vet there. Its only 30-45mins from us depending on where in Jax it is. We also had a friend suggest the vet school at UF in Gainesville, FL. I will definitly make a call today though and try to get something set up for her.

In regards to misting we currently have a habbimist from zoomed, i now agree with everyone else on this board, it sucks. It dribbles and doesnt mist, BUT we are hoping to pick up a mistking in the next 2 weeks. We purchased a 1 1/2 year old yemen veiled at the Daytona Show and want something to handle both of their misting needs with less oversight from us.

In joys laying bin there really isnt any foliage to spray, should be mist her directly? Or should I set up the habbimist to spray her directly throughout the day? If she is digging will that interrupt her and cause her to stop? And lastly, should I use the heat lamp to bring the temp up a little bit in the laying bin since it sits at 72-74 currently?

 

[jannb]

I live two hours from Dr. Alfonso but he is WELL WORTH the drive. There are no good chameleon vets in Jacksonville......I use to live there.
Dr. Alfonso's website: www.kirkmanareavet.com

 

[Joy Leaf]

Thanks Jannb! We will give him a call today. I guess if we make the trip down there we should probably take our new veiled as well for a check up. Thanks to those that have posted already, and keep the ideas coming and we will keep you all updated on Joy.

 

[jannb]

Thanks Jannb! We will give him a call today. I guess if we make the trip down there we should probably take our new veiled as well for a check up. Thanks to those that have posted already, and keep the ideas coming and we will keep you all updated on Joy.

That's what I do. I have two and always just take them both. Take a fresh fecal if you can so he can check for parasites. You'll love Dr. Alfonso and he doesn't charge an arm and a leg either.

 

[luevelvet]

Also, you mentioned about lack of foilage in the laying bin. I would consider placing a smaller bin, but still big enough for her to lay in, in her enclosure rather than removing her to lay eggs. The stress of being taking out her enclosure and into the bin is enough to make them not lay. With the bin in her cage, she will have the cover of her normal plants and what she is accustomed to, with the option to lay when she is comfortable and ready. But a visit with Dr. Alfonso is still your best bet. She looks a bit dehydrated and round, she may need to be induced.

Let us know how the visit goes!

Luis

 

[Joy Leaf]

in regards to a fresh fecal, we'll try. The last few have been made in the laying bin, and are getting harder to find with her eating less and them being in the dirt.

The new veiled's on the other hand will be easy. He eats and drinks like a champ

 

[laurie]

in regards to a fresh fecal, we'll try. The last few have been made in the laying bin, and are getting harder to find with her eating less and them being in the dirt.

The new veiled's on the other hand will be easy. He eats and drinks like a champ

You will be thrilled with Dr, Alfonso, I got to meet him while in Daytona and he is just great. I joined his online group and he will consult with me by phone as I live wayyyyyyyyyy out in the Montana stix.

 

[kinyonga]

So...she falls asleep with her nose down in the hole during the day...and at night what happens? Is she still digging when she's awake? At night, do you leave her in the hole?

I wonder if she is spending long hours in a 72F spot is she too cold and that's why she falls asleep??

I hope the vet can give you some answers.

I also wonder if you are doing more harm than good moving her back and forth and agree with putting a digging container in her cage.

 

[Joy Leaf]

UPDATE: Talked with Dr Alfonso's office and set up a tentative appointment for Monday morning at 10a. Got home from work early this afternoon and found Joy alseep again the in egg bin, with her head in the bucket we kept a couple feeders in, in case she got hungry. See pic below for a good laugh. Woke her up, she ate a superworm right away (good sign) then she proceeded to make her way up my arm and relax on my shoulder. Put her back in her primary enclosure bc we had to go pick our kid up from the bus stop, came back and she was on the bottom again (blah) so instead of obliging her and letting her back into the laying bin, I proceeded to mist the heck out of the enclosure for almost 10 mins, all of the sudden she decided to climb back up and started drinking her little heart out! woohoo!!!! She goes into our friends vet office tomorrow for an Xray and fecal exam (she left a fresh fecal for me, dark brown and white with a yellow spot in the middle) before the appt on Monday in Orlando. Shes acting a lot better so far this afternoon.

 

[Joy Leaf]

So...she falls asleep with her nose down in the hole during the day...and at night what happens? Is she still digging when she's awake? At night, do you leave her in the hole?

I wonder if she is spending long hours in a 72F spot is she too cold and that's why she falls asleep??

I hope the vet can give you some answers.

We've only let her stay overnight in the egg bin on the dirt a couple of nights. She just falls asleep like normal. Most nights she would climb up about 4-6" on her perch above the dirt and sleep there, then be back in the dirt or trying to climb out of the bin the next day. She made it out once or twice and found her on the floor relaxing there.

Regarding the 72F, I'm thinking the same thing. Shes now wondering her enclosure, heads up for a bit, and then walks around on the floor of enclosure. Since shes seeming more mobile and awake I added a few feeders to see if she gets the munchies.

 

[hemiram04]

I was nice to meet you guys at the Daytona show. Hope you rec. my email fine. Hope all goes well on Monday!

 

[Pure]

If you haven't already, read this. https://www.chameleonforums.com/big-megana-laying-her-27336/

Your basking temp is a little on the warm side. Try getting it down to about the mid 80s. Also, Melleri respond poorly to supplements. It's very easy to give them too much calcium and d3. Most rely on gut loading to supplement them. Follow Kristina's gutload recipe on Melleri Discovery. At the very least work some greens into the feeders diet, and drop the lettuce. Iceberg has no nutritional value and romain isn't much better.

If she is gravid, feeding shouldn't be much of a concern. Water is more important. She can go without food for some time. So keep the feeding cup out of her bin. and no do not mist her wile in the bin. It will make the soil too damp, and possibly inhibit her from wanting to dig.

To shower her just rig up some sort of branch screwed to a 2x4 base and stick her on it, and put her in the shower. Start out with warm water splattering on her from hitting the wall next to her. As/if she relaxes you can move the water to hit her directly. My guys love that as long as it isn't blasting them, so keep the pressure low.

I PMed you the info to my doc. I have no issues with him and he seems very knowledgeable. But in all fairness all I needed him for was a fecal and a general exam. I haven't put him through the ringer with a real problem yet.

Jann, ever deal with Dr. Heart off of Merill Rd?

He is very reasonable with his prices.

I'm honestly wondering if her hanging out on the bottom isn't related to the heat from the lamp and her lethargy from the supplements. On some level I do hope this is the issue as that's much easier to deal with than being egg bound. Then again, digging tosses that out the window.

Let us know what the vet says. Least with the x-ray you can confirm she's holding eggs or not.

 

[kinyonga]

So..now she's in her cage and has nowhere in the cage to dig??
I don't mean to be harsh, but I think you need to provide her a place in the cage to dig and stop fussing over her...let her do her job. There is only a certain period that they will want/need to lay the eggs and then the hormones will change and they won't be able to lay them. This will mean that she will progress towards eggbinding.

You can feed her and water her if she is up in the branches...as long as you don't leave any uneaten insects in the cage that might chew on her or the eggs.

Whenever she is digging, do not let her see you watching her or she will likely abandon the hole.

 

[Joy Leaf]

In regards to a laying bin in her normal enclosure, the most I could hope to fit in there is something a little larger than a shoe box. We kept an eye on her in the current laying bin with a web cam mounted over it. We will add the smaller bin tomorrow afternoon and see if that helps, that is of course if we find her to be gravid after the 10:30am vet visit for an Xray to verify the presense of eggs. I'll check out Melleridiscovery again in regards to gutlaoding and supplements.

What should the temp be in laying bin area? I'll adjust her basking lamp in the morning to cool the temp a little at her basking spot. I may also lower her bulb down to a 60w instead of 75w.

Hemi, great meeting you guys and thanks for all of the advice. Yes, we did get your email, thanks again!

 

[kinyonga]

A shoebox size container (12" at least long) only higher (12" high) should be okay for her to have in her cage to dig in.

If you don't want to put something like this in her cage then you could buy a 65 liter rubbermaid type container with a lid. Cut away most of the middle of the lid and screen over the hole. Put a bag or two of washed playsand in the container....put in a branch for her to climb on...put her in (and leave her there)...put the screened lid on...add a light over the screen..but be aware that she is then in an enclosed container and don't "cook" her.

She can be fed and watered here when she's in the branches. Again...don't leave any uneaten food in there....and when she's digging, don't let her see you watching her.

IMHO, if you continue to move her back and forth, wake her up to feed her, etc. you are going to end up with an egg binding issue.
Also, IMHO, if she is digging holes (not just digging in the corner of the container trying to get out) then she is gravid.

 

[Joy Leaf]

well so far all of the digging has been done in the corners. She digs down about 6-8" and thats about it. I'll post the xray results later this morning after her visit.

If she is gravid and doesnt lay over the rest of the weekend, Dr. Alfonso said he will more than likely induce her on Monday morning. But I will still set her up with something with the play sand and make sure shes hidden from view and any possible interruptions.

I'm still trying to find a temp that the laying bin should be without her getting to cold and falling alseep vs getting to hot and cooking her.