Variety question

[Gotti]

I know that variety is very important in a chams diet, but my only problem is if I go by the rule I keep reading( nothing bigger than the space between his eyes) then about the only thing he's big enough to eat are crickets and meal/wax worms. And 2 of those 3 aren't very good for him!

Dubias are about the size of his head, and all the worms I see are like half the length of him.

So my question is, should I just keep feeding him crickets(he has never shown a disinterest in them) until he's big enough to eat other things? Any other smaller insects you can suggest to add some variety ?

 

[fluxlizard]

Well, first off- the idea that mealworms and waxworms are bad for him is not quite right- too much is bad for him, but as a limited percentage of the diet, both are very good for adding more variety to his diet. Variety of insects = variety of nutrients. Insects are more than unique combinations of calcium/phosphorous/fat/ash/protein. They are also unique combinations of vitamins, minerals, amino acids, etc.

So, I would say go ahead and add those as limited parts of his diet if he is large enough. I don't use waxworms much any more because of expense and moths getting everywhere when I bred them, but I do use mealworms as a meal about 1x per week.

The other thing to consider is that insects aren't born full sized. I raise dubia and they are born about 1/4" or something around there- if your chameleon can eat a waxworm, he should be able to eat baby dubia. The same is true for all insects- if you breed them you can get the sizes you need. Heck- my newborn baby chameleons are fed newborn baby mealworms and baby lobster roaches, along with baby crickets etc.

 

[DavidBuchan]

So how big is he? Small flies are great fun for babies, I had most fun watching them hunt fruit flies .........you can keep feeding them until he's not interested in them any more. they will happily eat plenty of good fruity items, (I never gave mine butternut squash but when I get babies next year the fruit flies will almost live off it, 'cos its high calcium)
As Fluxlizard says variety is important, as much as gutloading probably (though variety in that is too is best). I breed locusts (sort of, a bit, well they have some babies anyway.....). A hatchling locust isn't often going to be too much for a month old Cham.........
I feed even some wild caught blue bottles, spiders, woodlice, anything edible that they'll go for is on the menu as far as I'm concerned, just stick to staples (crickets/ locusts/ roaches/ calciworms for 80% of the diet at least)

 

[Gotti]

Hes about 4.5 months old, I think I'm going to order some butterworms and maybe some calci worms later today.

 

[DavidBuchan]

Good choices, next order for me will prob. be silks. I've got a picky eating Chameleon problem at the moment though, so I won't bother until he's being a good boy about his crickets again...........

 

[Olimpia]

I think there's a big misconception with that rule. I've always understood it to be the WIDTH of the insect should not be wider than that space. The length is whatever. It's like spaghetti, you just chomp away at the length of it and you're fine. My panthers eat the 3" hornworms without fear and those are much longer than the space between their eyes.

A point worth noting is that mine have never gone after an insect they didn't think they could handle, ever. And if they shoot at one and don't want to fight to swallow it, they spit it out. They aren't as dumb as we might think. They, after all, don't want to choke on anything any more than we do.

 

[DavidBuchan]

I think there's a big misconception with that rule. I've always understood it to be the WIDTH of the insect should not be wider than that space. The length is whatever. It's like spaghetti, you just chomp away at the length of it and you're fine. My panthers eat the 3" hornworms without fear and those are much longer than the space between their eyes.

A point worth noting is that mine have never gone after an insect they didn't think they could handle, ever. And if they shoot at one and don't want to fight to swallow it, they spit it out. They aren't as dumb as we might think. They, after all, don't want to choke on anything any more than we do.

I thought the 'rule' was length of cricket or locust, to width of Cham head. I read someone on the forum say he uses length of worm to length of cham head - I liked this idea and basically stick to it...... I also have never seen a cham go for something that was too big to handle, but they obviously don't get much opportunity for that at my house......some videos on Youtube will clearly show Chams taking on prey that is potentially problematically big, they might not be dumb, but they still don't know what's best for them half the time, lol........

 

[Gotti]

Speaking of variety, I just caught a green grasshopper. Is it safe for him to eat?

 

[DavidBuchan]

Speaking of variety, I just caught a green grasshopper. Is it safe for him to eat?

Start a new thread with a pic to be sure (there are people on here who know your local hoppers I expect), but I'm going to be a bit gung-ho and say provisionally yes. Green Grasshopper? Sounds tasty

 

[Gotti]

I just ordered some baby hornworms, silkworms, butter worms, and phoenix worms from mullberry farms.

And I was wondering...do I need to gutload/dust them like I would a staple feeder?

 

[Olimpia]

I thought the 'rule' was length of cricket or locust, to width of Cham head. I read someone on the forum say he uses length of worm to length of cham head - I liked this idea and basically stick to it...... I also have never seen a cham go for something that was too big to handle, but they obviously don't get much opportunity for that at my house......some videos on Youtube will clearly show Chams taking on prey that is potentially problematically big, they might not be dumb, but they still don't know what's best for them half the time, lol........

See, I don't agree. Not as far as the size of insects is concerned. If mine goes for a suepr large hornworm and he doesn't want to have to handle it, he just spits it out. He doesn't want to choke any more than we do. Animals have been eating far longer than we have as humans, at least they know how to do that will a certain percent of success! lol

 

[DavidBuchan]

See, I don't agree. Not as far as the size of insects is concerned. If mine goes for a suepr large hornworm and he doesn't want to have to handle it, he just spits it out. He doesn't want to choke any more than we do. Animals have been eating far longer than we have as humans, at least they know how to do that will a certain percent of success! lol

Well, it depends on exactly how you define success I guess.........(or define what's best for them). I'm not going to argue with you on a point of mere semantics here, 'cos I know you know what you're taking about (and your chams have been raised insectivorous and with good table manners apparently .....don't make me put up links to chams on youtube greedily eating mice and anoles that are too big for them....... what do you think to the size of this worm though? - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BaBgx4vmB6Q he obviously has no problem with it, but I wouldn't offer one that big even if it is soft- bodied.....maybe that's me being over cautious.........

 

[Olimpia]

Well, it depends on exactly how you define success I guess.........(or define what's best for them). I'm not going to argue with you on a point of mere semantics here, 'cos I know you know what you're taking about (and your chams have been raised insectivorous and with good table manners apparently .....don't make me put up links to chams on youtube greedily eating mice and anoles that are too big for them....... what do you think to the size of this worm though? - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BaBgx4vmB6Q he obviously has no problem with it, but I wouldn't offer one that big even if it is soft- bodied.....maybe that's me being over cautious.........

Bah, don't get me started on mice Feeding chams vertebrates is a different conversation altogether! lol But that worm seems fine to me, he ate it pretty easily. I'll give mine the full grown hornworms if they want them. I'll tell you why I think this case is ok though, because hornworms are all squish and water, so while they're big, it's a matter of just munching on them.

Sort of like those Cheetos Puffs (weird analogy, I know), those suckers are big but there's not a lot of real mass to them, as soon as you chew them they aren't much to fight with. It's not like sticking a whole apple in your mouth, which is a lot more dense. Am I making sense? So I think if your adult guy will go for the giant hornworms that's not a problem, although I prefer the more medium sized ones of course. I wouldn't give them a locust or something of comparable size, that would certainly seem too much of a mouthful.

 

[DavidBuchan]

Bah, don't get me started on mice Feeding chams vertebrates is a different conversation altogether!

It is, but my first comment that you had to disagree with wasn't really intended as just an insecty statement. Humans being still technically 'in the wild', we can see everyday that even us smartarses don't always eat the best way for us.....too many takeaways for me usually, lol
Like your analogy , and I know exactly what you mean, but I still wouldn't stick a whole cheeto in my mouth at once if it was the size of an apple........unless you mean a small apple, lol
I guess I am just being over cautious on this one....I'll see how I feel when I get some silkworms delivered.......

 

[fluxlizard]

My opinion on the size thing-

More important for wee hatchlings than lizards several inches long or longer.

Bert Langerwerf rightly pointed out that given the choice, most lizards will select the largest insect they can catch. He felt that lizards choking to death on food items was a sign that the lizard was calcium deficient and weak. He felt the size rule kind of silly (See his water dragon book).

I don't entirely agree-

I think the size rule is good for hatchlings and very young lizards. I've hatched a lot of baby chameleons over the past 20 years and learned the hard way early on that baby chameleons will select items too large to swallow and cannot always shake their head side to side enough to get the food item out of there, and can choke to death as a result.

I also think that many of my lizards seem to prefer smaller, not larger food items given the choice, at least if they haven't had smaller items in a while. (Mixing up the size a little and offering smaller or larger items to adult chameleons can be a good way to keep them interested in a food item).

With baby bearded dragons (under 6" or so)- if you offer too large a cricket, it can put pressure on the spine and cause partial paralysis for several hours until it is digested and the pressure is relieved. But much larger soft-bodied roaches (like lobsters) do not cause this problem- I've found newly hatched dragons can take handle lobsters and lateralis roaches much larger without problems- anything they are willing to take really, compared to crickets. So it makes a big difference what the food item is sometimes.

Lastly- I've found that once a lizard is several inches long, it is safe to offer it anything it feels it can tackle.

So- yes I agree with the size guideline for hatchlings, but I've found larger chameleons can handle nearly anything they feel like catching and swallowing without problems.

 

[sandrachameleon]

I know that variety is very important in a chams diet, but my only problem is if I go by the rule I keep reading( nothing bigger than the space between his eyes) then about the only thing he's big enough to eat are crickets and meal/wax worms. And 2 of those 3 aren't very good for him!

Dubias are about the size of his head, and all the worms I see are like half the length of him.

So my question is, should I just keep feeding him crickets(he has never shown a disinterest in them) until he's big enough to eat other things? Any other smaller insects you can suggest to add some variety ?

dubia nymphs are smaller than mid-sized crickets
mealworms are smaller than crickets (get younger smaller mealworms if you are concerned)
baby superworms are smaller than crickets, adult supers and no wider than adult crickets
terrestrial isopods are smaller than crickets
silkworms come in a variety of sizes
butterworms come in a variety of sizes
Soldier fly maggots are small

 

[DavidBuchan]

Soldier fly maggots are small

Yep, everything you said........plus so are the Soldier Flies, and my girl thinks they are as nice as waxworm moths

 

[DavidBuchan]

My opinion on the size thing-

More important for wee hatchlings than lizards several inches long or longer.
...............................................................................................................
Lastly- I've found that once a lizard is several inches long, it is safe to offer it anything it feels it can tackle.

So- yes I agree with the size guideline for hatchlings, but I've found larger chameleons can handle nearly anything they feel like catching and swallowing without problems.

I didn't even think of this, that's partly why I was thinking like that Mine are effectively young adults now, I guess I've no need to be cautious at all. I suppose if we add the hatchling/ juvenile caveat we can all happily agree on this one now.......

 

[DavidBuchan]

I just ordered some baby hornworms, silkworms, butter worms, and phoenix worms from mullberry farms.

And I was wondering...do I need to gutload/dust them like I would a staple feeder?

It's best to gutload and dust as normal (no need to dust or feed with the Phoenix worms apparently....but when I had them they thoroughly enjoyed a final meal of butternut squash).
I never kept any of the other kind of worms myself though (being a cheapskate I mostly rely on mealworms and wild caughts for variety)