UVB questions ?

[CasqueAbove]

I have read chameleon academy and he does a great job explaining his numbers, and that they are proved numbers not absolute.

Well I still somehow got it stuck in my head that under 3 UVI is useless to Chams. I am pretty sure this is wrong.
Does anyone have some stats or info to help clarify this in my head.

 

[Kam0408]

You need a T5ho 5.0 uvb bulb

 

[Lennoncham]

You need a T5ho 5.0 uvb bulb

that’s not what he was asking...

 

[Lennoncham]

@Beman i believe correct uvi for a panther / veiled is 3-4 uvi? Would less then 3 be useless?

 

[Kam0408]

Oh sorry..

 

[Beman]

@Beman i believe correct uvi for a panther / veiled is 3-4 uvi? Would less then 3 be useless?

No, it is not useless under 3. Your minimum effective level being a 1 UVI for D3 conversion. But 3 would be the UVI level that a Veiled or Panther should receive at basking level. This is if you go by what Arcadia and Bill Strand put out. I have followed a 3-4 UVI at basking with Beman the last 2 years. I believe the confusion is more based on the the type of output we are able to get with a t5ho fixture vs a T8. Since the T8 puts out a lower output vs the T5HO. So old line of thinking is keeping them at lower UVI levels like a UVI 1...
Bill explains it more at this link. https://chameleonacademy.com/chameleon-cage-set-up-replicating-the-sun/
John Courtney-Smith has a book called Fire that goes into greater explanation as well.

 

[Kaizen]

I have read chameleon academy and he does a great job explaining his numbers, and that they are proved numbers not absolute.

Well I still somehow got it stuck in my head that under 3 UVI is useless to Chams. I am pretty sure this is wrong.
Does anyone have some stats or info to help clarify this in my head.

Please remember that successful keepers in the 80s kept chams with no uvb. They did this by experimenting with d3 supplementation. Many keepers now still shoot for uvi 1–2, and use dietary d3 as a supplemental source. In short, uvi 1-2 is not useless, it might just require dietary d3 as a supplement.

 

[Kaizen]

Please remember that successful keepers in the 80s kept chams with no uvb. They did this by experimenting with d3 supplementation. Many keepers now still shoot for uvi 1–2, and use dietary d3 as a supplemental source. In short, uvi 1-2 is not useless, it might just require dietary d3 as a supplement.

Further to my last, these keepers do so very successfully. Uvb, d3, and just about every other aspect of this hobby cannot be understood as isolated husbandry parameters, but instead variables that are related to every other aspect. Uvb and d3 have a relationship, d3 and A have a relationship, so uvb and A have a relationship ship.

 

[Beman]

Further to my last, these keepers do so very successfully. Uvb, d3, and just about every other aspect of this hobby cannot be understood as isolated husbandry parameters, but instead variables that are related to every other aspect. Uvb and d3 have a relationship, d3 and A have a relationship, so uvb and A have a relationship ship.

Exactly... They all work together. Changing one throws off others.

 

[Lennoncham]

Please remember that successful keepers in the 80s kept chams with no uvb. They did this by experimenting with d3 supplementation. Many keepers now still shoot for uvi 1–2, and use dietary d3 as a supplemental source. In short, uvi 1-2 is not useless, it might just require dietary d3 as a supplement.

actually they did have uvb lights back then. They were called vita-lite. Now weather people used them or if they were any good is a different story.

 

[Kaizen]

I seem to remember reading about vita-lites. They put out like .5 uvi, or something like that. Guaranteed, that .5 uvi was doing some good.

 

[CasqueAbove]

This kind of give what I figured. I do have my basking at 3-4. I have a large enclosure, There is another 15-20 inches of branches she uses on a regular basis. I was wondering how much she is converting down there. I am lookin to go D3 free.

To further my confusion UVI here in Oregon was only 1.6 at 3pm in full sum. But it is Oregon and people have to supplement D3 here so there is that.

 

[Kaizen]

This kind of give what I figured. I do have my basking at 3-4. I have a large enclosure, There is another 15-20 inches of branches she uses on a regular basis. I was wondering how much she is converting down there. I am lookin to go D3 free.

To further my confusion UVI here in Oregon was only 1.6 at 3pm in full sum. But it is Oregon and people have to supplement D3 here so there is that.

I’m in Canada, and I don’t use any d3. I keep outside 5-6 months a year, and inside 6-7 months. I’m happy to share some of my experiences, if you’re interested.

 

[nightanole]

actually they did have uvb lights back then. They were called vita-lite. Now weather people used them or if they were any good is a different story.

I was part of the vita-lite master race. They put out something like .25 UVI at 6"-8". Wonderful for anoles and geckos. Raised plenty of chams on them too along with sticky tongue indoor every feeding

But as everyone has said, You just dont want to mix and match your supplements with your UVB.

Untold thousands of chams have been raised with little to no UVB, and almost 100% supplemented by D3 powder. Some breeders to this day have it down to a science and still swear by it.
Then is goes on from there. Maybe a T8 10.0 and medium dose D3 twice a month.
Then it goes further. Maybe a 6%/5.0 T5HO and low dose D3 twice a month.
Then the furthest is the finely tuned 6% or even 12% that requires no D3 (or very very low, maybe once a month for insurance).

But issues only happen when you mix and match, dont medium dose D3 2x a month and have a 12%, you will be asking about edema on here inside of 90 days.

And then you have the n00bs that havent got the idea that bulbs have a half life. No your perfectly tuned UVI of XXX, is still going to be good enough in a year when the bulb is putting out half the UVB as when it was new.
But we all have conflicting opinions on what is the extreme ends of the healthy scale. Should you shoot for UVI 4 and replace at 2? Should you shoot for 3, and replace at 1.5? Should you shoot for 3 and replace at 2?


Then there is the ongoing argument of how much do they get in the wild. We have legit readings from all the major places. And we have several legit studies.
But we all have conflicting opinions on what is the extreme ends of the healthy scale.

Several studies have said that chams, while geting UVI 6-7 during mid day, do not actively bask once the morning sun starts cranking out UVI 3, and then they start basking again in the evening when it start getting below 3 again:
https://www.researchgate.net/public..._in_two_species_of_chameleons_from_Madagascar

 

[Kaizen]

Agreed!!! It’s a veritable quagmire.

 

[Klyde O'Scope]

Untold thousands of chams have been raised with little to no UVB, and almost 100% supplemented by D3 powder. Some breeders to this day have it down to a science and still swear by it.

You mean we've all been pissing away $60 for UV-Bs (incl. fixture) when we could have just used a $6 can of calcium +D3‽ ? ( with tongue firmly implanted in cheek)

Several studies have said that chams, while geting UVI 6-7 during mid day, do not actively bask once the morning sun starts cranking out UVI 3, and then they start basking again in the evening when it start getting below 3 again:
https://www.researchgate.net/public..._in_two_species_of_chameleons_from_Madagascar

+1. Here are some more studies...
https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0,33&q=chameleons+ultraviolet-B&btnG=

 

[nightanole]

You mean we've all been pissing away $60 for UV-Bs (incl. fixture) when we could have just used a $6 can of calcium +D3‽ ? ( with tongue firmly implanted in cheek)


+1. Here are some more studies...
https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0,33&q=chameleons+ultraviolet-B&btnG=

Its a lot cheaper to feed your pet human a multi vitamin vs fruits and veggies

But my humans are not as perky and colorful on my diy soylent.

 

[Lennoncham]

Its a lot cheaper to feed your pet human a multi vitamin vs fruits and veggies

But my humans are not as perky and colorful on my diy soylent.

soylent green?

 

[Kaizen]

You mean we've all been pissing away $60 for UV-Bs (incl. fixture) when we could have just used a $6 can of calcium +D3‽ ? ( with tongue firmly implanted in cheek)


+1. Here are some more studies...
https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0,33&q=chameleons+ultraviolet-B&btnG=

Here’s the problem: I can think of one study that actually gives information on how much d3 is enough to prevent Mbd, but as far as I know, there isn’t a firm answer to the question “exactly how much d3 does a chameleon need?” We have some tried and tested supplement regimes that work well, but we don’t know whether these are perfect, teetering on the brink of too little, or too much. And, so far as we know, chameleons do not have the ability to control how much d3 they absorb via their diet; they can only self-regulate their sun exposure.

 

[Kaizen]

Again, what I just said is not meant as an argument against supplementing dietary d3, but merely to answer the question, “why bother with uvb?” My regime includes no dietary d3, and this works for me. Others successfully use the two-pronged approach, and that works for them.