Trust the vet?

Diinomos

Member
Hello everyone!!! I've grown very trustworthy of this forum page as well as different reliable chameleon youtube channels (i.e. Neptune the Chameleon) and I would just like to share a concern from my first experience at the closest exotic vet near me. They had good yelp reviews and I was convinced to give it a go since it was my first time taking my 7 month old veiled cham. The staff was nice and all but I wanna focus on the doctor himself. I took my cham to the vet because his poop smelled very stinky from far which I know can be a bad thing and may be caused by some bacterial infection. Along with that, some of his poop would have undigested pheonix worms (I know it's pheonix worms bc they look exactly like the ones I feed her and they're not moving). I let the doc know that I feed her a mix of dubias, pheonix worms, very little mealworms or wax worms as a small snack (i know these two aren't the best feeders which is why I feed in moderation) and that I gutload them with kale, apples, and carrots the night before. He told me not to feed so many because there could be an imbalance of nutrients or something like that, and recommended me to feed her Earthworms, Mealworms, and Crickets (my first concern came here, I heard earthworms aren't the best for chameleons, mealworms are like snack so shouldn't be fed often or in large quantities, and Crickets aren't the best feeders?) And I let him know that I feed calcium everyday by dusting them and Vitamins with D3 twice a month, and he told me to not feed her Insects with calcium everyday but 2 to 3 times a week bc it can be poisonous (which I know but that's why I dust the Insects lightly and not leave them like white powdered donuts) and he kept reiterating how D3 is very dangerous even for humans, which, I am aware of as well (not the human part, but the part of dusting too much vitamin with D3). Another thing was, when he checked my chameleon, he squeezed her sides on the part of her ribs and as uncomfortable as I was him doing that I tolerated it bc it's the doc and I assume that's what's necessary for a proper check up. After my Cham got a lil angry at him, hissed, and nearly bit his finger causing him to jolt his hand back, he said she's dehydrated and then later recommended me to spray her directly for 3 days straight (another concern because I read everywhere that spraying chameleons directly is not a good thing as they can get stressed from it, also I can't entirely tell how this is any better than giving water-rich Insects like hornworms which I asked if I can feed her hornworms instead for hydration but he insisted to spray directly). I was confused about this because i didnt really go in the vet thinking she was dehydrated especially since her urate looked perfect (white, short, slightly shiny/wet without orange spots). Then they weighed my chameleon and again, very uncomfortable seeing the nurse grab her on the sides of the head while her mouth gaped and she hissed at him. They took the fecal sample I brought and will send me results later and want me to bring her next week for a check up which I am very hesitant for as, after my chameleon was done, she became aggressive with me when I tried putting her back in her cage back home (very heartbreaking to see but honestly expect it when your chameleon is being handled by new people who are under time constraints from other animal appointments). One final thing is the doctor prescribed Baytril and to feed 0.3ml directly on her mouth everyday. All of this costed around $141. I feel absolutely terrible having to see my poor chameleon being handled that way but again, I am hoping it is just the way of veterinarian standards to perform under the time limits of having other appointments to attend to. With that said, I would love to get everyone else's responses as to what your thoughts are with the insect recommendation and hydrating recommendation. Thank you all for taking the time to read this and I look forward for your responses!
 
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Yep! Added a few photos of her eating but then left her alone after :D I technically didn't get it suggested but I personally asked for it and they are in the process of doing it. Update: I found her poop again with pheonix worms inside them so I am going to stop feeding pheonix worms to see if she just cant digest them compared to other feeders (the dubias and mealworms never show up in her poop).
 

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Hmmmm so they gave me Baytril without confirming that she has an infection? And I live around Paramount, zip: 90723.
 
LA area vets

Attila Molnar, DVM *
All Animals Medical Center, Calabasas, California - (818) 591-2773

Geoffrey Stein, DVM *
Shipp's Animal Hospital, 351 Foothill Blvd., Beverly Hills - (310) 550-0101

Daniel Reimer, DVM *
Adler Veterinary Clinic, North Hills, California - (818) 893-6366

Thomas H. Boyer, DVM
Pet Hospital of Penasquitos, 888-F Carmel Mountain Road, San Diego, CA - (858) 484-3490
Pet Hospital of Penasquitos

Todd R. Cecil, DVM
Pet Emergency and Specialty Center, Chula Vista, CA (619) 591-4802 and La Mesa, CA (619) 462-4800

Tom Greek, DVM
Greek & Associates Veterinary Hospital, 23687 Via Del Rio, Yorba Linda - (714) 463-1190 or (866) 940-7028
www.tomgreek.com
 
Along with that, some of his poop would have undigested pheonix worms (I know it's pheonix worms bc they look exactly like the ones I feed her and they're not moving).
Phoenix Worms/Black Soldier Fly Larvae are notorious for going relatively undigested. Oftentimes, people will describe exactly what you mentioned--phoenix worms popping up in the poop. Even though they are touted as excellent feeders, especially when looking at the calcium to phosphorous ratio, they shouldn't be fed a staple feeders. There might be a benefit to roughage passing through a chameleons gut, but I don't believe the nutrition is really getting passed along. If the other food items are being digested, I wouldn't worry about the phoenix worms popping up in the stool. However, I do believe a fecal should be done with the smell you are describing.

Are you certain it is the poop? Does the smell go away once the poop is removed? Anyway that it could be the smell of rotting roots in oversaturated soil? That's just an example, I'm sure you have thoroughly checked.

You should be able to bring in a fecal sample without bringing in your chameleon. If the test comes up positive for treatable parasites or whatever else, then you will need to bring in your cham to receive medication from the vet.

The earthworm recommendation seems odd. Earthworms have never been recommended here. I'm not exactly sure why, but I am not an expert. So I would listen to the experts and say NO to earthworms. Maybe @kinyonga can answer this question as why not to feed worms. I think there are so many better options out there. Plus, I believe earthworms are more likely to carry parasites. Plus, nutritionally, they don't offer much in their gut.

Crickets make excellent feeders (though they shouldn't make up the entire diet). Mealworms are fine as treats. Though superworms would be a better option as they have a better calcium to phosphorous ratio. Earthworms, as mentioned above, should be avoided.

And I let him know that I feed calcium everyday by dusting them and Vitamins with D3 twice a month, and he told me to not feed her Insects with calcium everyday but 2 to 3 times a week bc it can be poisonous (which I know but that's why I dust the Insects lightly and not leave them like white powdered donuts) and he kept reiterating how D3 is very dangerous even for humans, which, I am aware of as well (not the human part, but the part of dusting too much vitamin with D3).
Dusting with plain calcium at every feeding poses no risk to overdoes. As you have mentioned above, it is D3 that poses risk to our chameleons. Personally, I would not change a thing to your supplementation schedule. I think everyone should look into feeders that do not need to be dusted; however, that is mainly to encourage nutritional variety. Plain calcium every day should cause no harm.

After my Cham got a lil angry at him, hissed, and nearly bit his finger causing him to jolt his hand back, he said she's dehydrated and then later recommended me to spray her directly for 3 days straight (another concern because I read everywhere that spraying chameleons directly is not a good thing as they can get stressed from it, also I can't entirely tell how this is any better than giving water-rich Insects like hornworms which I asked if I can feed her hornworms instead for hydration but he insisted to spray directly).
Spraying directly isn't necessary. Spraying indirectly might be a good thing. However, you note that the urates are white, shiny, and wet. So, like you, spraying her directly isn't necessary. You can spray her cage a little extra in the morning to see if she will drink more, but I suspect that this vet isn't very knowledgeable about chameleons.

I can't speak on the baytril, but the handling of your chameleon is pretty standard among vets. It isn't ideal, but chameleons are very hesitant of new people, so it would take a while for a cham to behave. It is hard to see your cham all stressed out like that. That's why I make sure that the vet visit is to a worthwhile vet.

After you get the fecal results back and you get the necessary medication, I wouldn't go back to that vet. But only after I got the issue at hand resolved. Sorry that you have to go through this. It sucks, but it is worth it. Take their words with a grain of salt. You can continuously ask questions here. We are more than happy to give you guidance. Ultimately, the medication and treatment are up to the vet. But you can leave the husbandry and care parameters to us.
 
Thank you all for your input! I'll definitely look into the vets you recommended! And FYI, I spray my cham every morning and night, before waking up and after sleeping respectively (the morning spray was recommended by someone on the forum too!) I spray her enough till her Humidity gets around 70-80% humidity and let my dehumidifier get rid of excess water at the bottom (it gets Humid around my house somehow so I needed the dehumidifier to achieve ~40% humidity during the day :)) I do offer her extra water during the day too with a dripper that I leave on to slowly drip, i turn it on, leave it for a few minutes, and turn it off twice throughout the day incase she needs any extra water! Again, thanks for your input and I'll keep in touch if ever!!
 
You said...."I spray my cham every morning and night, before waking up and after sleeping respectively"...spray the water on the chameleon or on the plants in the cage?
 
You said...."I spray my cham every morning and night, before waking up and after sleeping respectively"...spray the water on the chameleon or on the plants in the cage?
Oops sorry for being a lil vague, I spray my chams plants and the walls around it, of course I make sure to locate where my cham is before i spray to make sure the water doesn't go straight on her :)
 
A chameleon's opinion of a worm....I feel like this says it all...

Woahhhh I thought they were gonna give up after the first few tries but it looks like they got frustrated with that darn worm 🤣 chameleon tongues are sticky so I'm guessing earth worms are just super slippery? 😅
 
I don't think he liked the taste or maybe the texture. Unless I'm wrong he spit it out because he didn't like it.

@Mendez said..."I believe earthworms are more likely to carry parasites. Plus, nutritionally, they don't offer much in their gut"...

Here's what earthworms eat...
https://animals.mom.com/what-food-do-earthworms-eat-5820300.html

Maybe they can be gutloaded...but they have a poor ratio of calcium to phosphorous...
https://eorganic.org/node/8103

Earthworms do carry a number of different parasites, but I don't know if they are species specific or not. Sorry.
All I can say is I think there are better choices than earth worms and I wouldn't ever feed them to chameleons.
 
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I can only hope the vet misunderstood your supplement routine and believed you were giving D3 daily. Either way I think you can do better on the list that Jann gave you. I would not start the Baytril until the fecal results come in if at all, If it is a parasitic infection then Baytril will not help and has risks of it;s own.
 
Hey everyone! Just wanted to update yall that the fecal results were done and they said it came out negative with no parasites :D I stopped feeding pheonix worms and her poop looks much better now without the whole worms in there but the smelly poop is still there. I was putting in some mealworms for her right now for tomorrow morning and I realized that the mealworms do have the same smell as the odor from her poop (I only feed her 5 small mealworms tho), but I will still see how things go after not feeding mealworms for a while! I'm sticking to the dubias and Crickets that I just got!
 
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