Transporting a sick young veiled, worried to tears

[carol5208]

I am most concerned with Lua's pain. If he is suffering, I would rather let him humanely sleep it away. It chokes me up to write that, but I can't let Pascal's death be in vain. We were uninformed and uneducated and we failed him, and I do not want to fail Lua in the same way. Oh goodness, I am an emotional wreck today.
If Lua can live a life of contentment and peace, free from pain, then I want to do everything in my power to give him that.

I would like to say that his color looks marvelous tonight, and his mouth is closed. His tongue was protruding earlier, but I'm sure it was due to the VERY small drop of metacam my boyfriend gave him, and his mouth is closed not. No gap. I have been consistently on him like a mother hen. I hope the improved color and closed mouth means improved health in the near future.

you can have your vet take x rays and see if anyof your chams bones are broken. They may have sadly broken already and healed.

 

[CoyoteNerdy]

I forgot to add a detail. I use a substrate, but not in the traditional sense. My boyfriend (Ryan) and I drilled a tiny hole in the bottom of the glass cage, wherein we attached a small thin hose (leaving it sticking up about a half inch). We cover the area around the hose with Premium Repti Bark, so there is a slight slope from the edges down to the hose. Above that, I custom cut a green reptile carpet to fit the cage, and I made a small hole in the middle for the hose to stick through. The carpet prevents crickets from hiding in the substrate, the angle helps water flow out of the tube and into a modified pickle jar (here) which we empty every evening, and the substrate itself has been wonderful in helping keep the humidity in check. We went to a lot of trouble for this set up and we are rather proud of it.

The substrate itself is changed once a month or more, depending on smell and water build up. Dead crickets are plucked out as they are found, per the vet's instruction as she said the decaying bodies can have ill effects on our cham.

 

[CoyoteNerdy]

It is called the V.E.R.G.I. ER, on Katy Freeway. This was with Pascal, and he was there in early July. There is only one vet there who sees reptiles, and it was apparently not exactly protocol to see reptiles there as they didn't have anything there to really help as far as machinery or whatnot goes. I was told not to overdust with calcium because it could lead to build up in his body, and that the kale and apples would be sufficient for calcium needs in the gutloading process.

We don't leave lights on at night, only the black light, which allows the heat to drop so he can sleep deeply.

Well, I have the information all written down now, so I will be able to take it to the vet tomorrow. Thank you for your input, I'll be sure to ask the vet about what you have pointed out.

well the biggest problem I see is your supplementation. You should have been dusting all of your feeders everyday with a plain calcium. The herptivite should only be used two or three times monthly. Most of us a calcium with a d3 a couple of times a month. Not using calcium on a regular basis is mostly likely your problem i am sorry to say. Your temps are a little high also but most likely not any cause of the MBD. Most veild owners bask their chams at around 85 and the cage itself is more in the mid 70 degree range. No lights at night! No heat at night unless your temps are below 50. When were you at the ER with your chameleon?

 

[carol5208]

you have to be careful using carpets and substrates as they can cause conditions to be too damp which breed mold and bacteria which can lead to respiratory infections. Bark, rocks, mulch, etc are frowned upon especially if you let your crickets loose. Your cham goes to shoot a cricket and gets a piece of bark in its mouth. It can choke or become impacted. We have seen it happen on here. It is better to leave the cage floor bare.

 

[carol5208]

It is called the V.E.R.G.I. ER, on Katy Freeway. This was with Pascal, and he was there in early July. There is only one vet there who sees reptiles, and it was apparently not exactly protocol to see reptiles there as they didn't have anything there to really help as far as machinery or whatnot goes. I was told not to overdust with calcium because it could lead to build up in his body, and that the kale and apples would be sufficient for calcium needs in the gutloading process.

We don't leave lights on at night, only the black light, which allows the heat to drop so he can sleep deeply.

Well, I have the information all written down now, so I will be able to take it to the vet tomorrow. Thank you for your input, I'll be sure to ask the vet about what you have pointed out.

I am sorry to say but the info you were given about kale and apples is not correct as it is not sufficent for calcium. It is proven when bones are developing, the feeders need to be dusted!!! Many vets know reptiles but do NOT know chameleons. We are all raising healthy chameleons with no mbd by following this protocol. I am sorry you were misled by someone who should have been giving you the correct advice. No heat at night. In nature, does the temp rise or fall when night comes? Think about it.....

 

[CoyoteNerdy]

I do understand this. The carpet is either washed or completely thrown away, and I can guarantee that there is no way Lua can get to the substrate beneath. The carpet not only provides him a plush landing if he should fall, it prevents him and the crickets from getting to it. It's purely for humidity purposes. Pascal fell on a bare cage floor only once, and I never let it happen again. It will also never happen to Lua or any other cham I adopt.It can cause pain, bruises, broken bones... My substrate+carpet definitely works for us.

you have to be careful using carpets and substrates as they can cause conditions to be too damp which breed mold and bacteria which can lead to respiratory infections. Bark, rocks, mulch, etc are frowned upon especially if you let your crickets loose. Your cham goes to shoot a cricket and gets a piece of bark in its mouth. It can choke or become impacted. We have seen it happen on here. It is better to leave the cage floor bare.

 

[CoyoteNerdy]

Um, I live in Texas. The answer is yes. The temperature is high 90s in the day and low 70s at night. In the desert, you can burn to death during the day and freeze to death during the night. Every page I've researched about temperature recommends that a chameleon get a low drop in temperature at night, and it has worked for Lua.

In nature, does the temp rise or fall when night comes? Think about it.....

 

[carol5208]

I do understand this. The carpet is either washed or completely thrown away, and I can guarantee that there is no way Lua can get to the substrate beneath. The carpet not only provides him a plush landing if he should fall, it prevents him and the crickets from getting to it. It's purely for humidity purposes. Pascal fell on a bare cage floor only once, and I never let it happen again. It will also never happen to Lua or any other cham I adopt.It can cause pain, bruises, broken bones... My substrate+carpet definitely works for us.

does the carpet dry out COMPLETELY everyday? If not, then it is not ok. If so, then yes.

 

[carol5208]

Um, I live in Texas. The answer is yes. The temperature is high 90s in the day and low 70s at night. In the desert, you can burn to death during the day and freeze to death during the night. Every page I've researched about temperature recommends that a chameleon get a low drop in temperature at night, and it has worked for Lua.

yes you are right. I guess I misunderstood. I thought you were providing heat at night. But you still do not need the blacklight. What is its purpose?

 

[CoyoteNerdy]

On the side of the box, it states it "provides 24-hour ambient heat source for a healthy reptile environment, great for night-time viewing to observe natural nocturnal behaviors." Ryan and I got it because we did not want the drop to be too low, because winter is right upon us. The cold can be so low that it freezes our pipes, often breaking them if we don't wrap them in time. With weather like that, we are concerned for Lua and want to ensure a healthy nighttime temperature, which will not be too cold yet just right for his sleep needs. Yes, we use it now, but the distance at which it sits above him at night only illuminates him for now.

yes you are right. I guess I misunderstood. I thought you were providing heat at night. But you still do not need the blacklight. What is its purpose?

 

[CoyoteNerdy]

With the condition he is in, I want to be able to check on him throughout the night tonight, so the night light is a good way to give him privacy and allow me to monitor him without stressing or disturbing his sleep. Pascal passed while I was asleep, and I don't want that to happen to Lua. I'm feeling more confident that he is feeling better than earlier, but I'm going to be checking on him every few hours, I already know this.

 

[carol5208]

you can do what you want but your chameleon does not have any "nocturnal behavior" other than sleeping. The best way to provide heat if it is too cold is use a ceramic bulb. did you read what I told you about the kale and apple. That is incorrect information. Your lack of calcium dusting is mostly why your chameleon has mbd. Unfortunately you were misguided on that info.

 

[CoyoteNerdy]

Yes, I did see that. I'm just a little in shock, if you can understand. I've been following what I thought was a strict plan for his health, which was never right from the beginning. I'm actually quite emotionally exhausted, so I do think I'm going to retire to the bedroom. I will give updates as they come. Thank you for your input and your advice. I hope you have a lovely evening.

you can do what you want but your chameleon does not have any "nocturnal behavior" other than sleeping. The best way to provide heat if it is too cold is use a ceramic bulb. did you read what I told you about the kale and apple. That is incorrect information. Your lack of calcium dusting is mostly why your chameleon has mbd. Unfortunately you were misguided on that info.

 

[carol5208]

no problem. I feel for you as if you cannot trust a vet for advice then who can you trust?. I have seen hundreds of people on here being misled by petco or petsmart but usually not by their vets. Let us know how things go. I know you are trying to do what is best for your chameleon. You have found the right place to learn the ins and outs of chameleon keeping. We will help you as best we can. .

 

[MollyT]

no problem. I feel for you as if you cannot trust a vet for advice then who can you trust?. I have seen hundreds of people on here being misled by petco or petsmart but usually not by their vets. Let us know how things go. I know you are trying to do what is best for your chameleon. You have found the right place to learn the ins and outs of chameleon keeping. We will help you as best we can. .

This is very true. I hate that you have been mislead, but you have found a great place for information. Many of the people on this site have decades of experience with chameleons, both rescue and breeding. They know what works and what doesn't bc they have lived it and seen it first hand. This is the best resource for any current or future chameleon owner. All you have to do is ask, and they will try to help in any way they can. I know you love your little guy and I feel like you are beating your self up for what is happening, but I don't think you should be so hard on yourself. You were given wrong information from someone who should have known better to at least not say anything if he didn't know for sure how to properly accomodate a chameleon. You followed these instructions thinking you were doing the right thing. It doesn't reflect negatively on you, rather it's just another example of people getting incorrect tips on chameleons from people who they trust. It happens all the time. All you can do now is to get him treated for this and then if you have any other questions about caring for him or cage conditions, come here and ask away. I am anxious to hear what happens at his appointment tomorrow. Try to get some sleep tonight. Take care and good luck tomorrow to you and Lua!

 

[absolutbill]

Let us know how you make out today at the vet's - if you transport Lua in a shoebox that has a lid on it he should just go to sleep. That's exactly how I transported a sick cham and it worked quite well. I took a piece of fleece and folded it on the bottom of the box to be as soft as possible for him. Good luck, Lua is a cutie, and we can help you work around his MBD and not have it advance further!

 

[Captive Creations]

im so sorry to hear all that you have been going through i myself have a cham with mbd it was one of my offspring that was sold to a client here in london and just did not follow anything i had told him about care and lighting or any info i gave him anyway i took pascal back from him he was in very very bad shape when io got him back he was grey and brown in colour could not climb at all he just dragged himself around and after a few vet trips proper care and lighting he has recovered very well he has very crooked legs and is very un preportioned but since we have been caring for him he has come a very long way he climbs all over he eats on his own his grip is better then most of the chams i have its like he is just super stong in his hands and his colour is back to normal he looks amazing actually. i will try to get a couple pics on here for you so you can see just how much you can help a cham that has advanced mbd they can klive a long happy life best of luck at the vet hope all goes well and if you have any questions like others have said dont hesitate to ask we are all here to help

 

[CoyoteNerdy]

Lua's appointment is scheduled for 4:30 today. His grip is pretty strong today. I held him in the sunlight for about ten minutes, and he was pretty chill, just holding my fingers and looking at all the flying insects. He isn't eating his crickets, but he is loving the calcium mix that I give him.

It's true, MollyT, I am really raking myself over the coals. When Ryan brought Lua home, we both made a promise in Pascal's honor to do everything we could to prepare and prevent it from happening again. After a few hours of sleep, I do feel a little less severe about myself... I followed the advice of a vet, who really should have had the right answers. Still... My poor Lua is the one who suffers the consequences.

It's a waiting game now. 4:30 can't come soon enough.

 

[kinyonga]

I didn't read all the replies you were given. So if I repeat what others have told you I apologize.

Does the black light you use at night give off UVB?

When you have a chameleon with MBD you need to give treatment to bring the nutrients back in line and then maintain proper husbandry to keep it there. Calcium, D3, phos, and vitamin A are all important in bone health and other systems in the chameleon and need to be in balance. So...although your chameleon will need extra calcium to help it recover from the MBD you should look at the others as well.

The quickest way to bring the calcium back in line is to give the chameleon injections of calcium until the blood calcium levels are high enough to give it a shot of calcitonin to rapidly draw the calcium back into the bones. Liquid calcium works fairly quickly too.

Appropriate temperatures will aid in digestion and thus indirectly in nutrient absorption.

Exposure to the UVB will allow the chameleon to produce D3 which will allow it to use the calcium you are providing. D3 from supplements can build up in the system and lead to health issues such as MBD. D3 produced from exposure to the UVB light shouldn't build up as long as the chameleon can move in and out of it.

I dust the insects twice a month lightly with a phos - free calcium / D3 powder to ensure that the chameleon gets some D3 without overdosing it and leaving it to produce the rest from its exposure to the UVB light.

I also dust the insects at most feedings with a phos - free calcium powder since many of the insects we use as feeders have a poor ratio of calcium to phos.

I dust twice a month with a vitamin powder that contains a beta carotene (prOformed) source of vitamin A. This ensures that the chameleon gets its vitamins without overdosing the vitamin A. Vitamin A from beta carotene sources will not build up in the system like prEformed vitamin A will....so this leaves the decision as to whether to give any prEformed vitamin A to the chameleon in the hands of the owner.

In addition gutloading/feeding your insects well will help. I use a wide variety of greens such as dandelions, collards, endive, escarole, mustard greens, kale, etc ). And veggies such as carrots, sweet potato, sweet red pepper, squash, zucchini, etc ).

I have kept chameleons for about 25 years and my female veileds generally live to be 6 years old or older...and the males even older than that.


Hope this helps and that your chameleon can recover and live a long life!

 

[CoyoteNerdy]

I've only just gotten home with Lua. It's been a rough evening for us both. The vet confirmed what we knew, that he has MBD, as well as fractures in his arms. Dr. Garner said Lua has a 50/50 chance at this point. He was given two injections, one a calcium and the other vitamin A, and force fed him a high-calcium meal. Our regiment is to force feed this same diet four times a day, with a twice daily dose of liquid calcium as well. The vet staff gave us a reptile store to go to, where we were able to discuss a new habitat arrangement for Lua. The vet assured us that we were doing the right things, and even said something to the effect of, "You are both smart people, and we often see very dumb people come in here. You've been doing well, despite the bad advice, and it's a good reflection on you both that Lua has survived this long. You are willing to learn, you know a lot already, and now I'm going to tell you what to change and what to keep."

The food they gave us is a canine/feline canned food by Prescription Diet, which appears to be called a/d Critical Care. It's already quite a thin solution, but we have been instructed to water it down a little more. The bottle of liquid calcium sayd Neo-Cal Glucon and it kind of pinkish orange-ish. We have about six or seven stapled pages with instructions concerning the treatment of MBD, written by the staff while we waited. It wasn't pre-made, they wrote it out specifically for Lua and for us to follow. This is going to be our family vet from now on, for the rest of our furbabies.

We went to the reptile store immediately afterwards to get him some vet-recommended things that our local PetsMart doesn't carry. We were there until close talking with the staff, and they all got to see Lua and give their input. I kept the lip mostly closed with just a slit so I could see him, and he slept most of the evening. It's been a very tiring day for us all. The poor baby is sporting some angry dark spots where he got his two injections, but he is sleeping again. The vet said that if the injections help him and he's going to make it, we are going to see a lot of improvement milestones within the next three days. We are hopeful to see those come.