Transporting a sick young veiled, worried to tears

[CoyoteNerdy]

Hello everyone. Long time lurker, reading all your advice anonymously, ready to be a little more active here.
Just to clarify, I didn't find anything like this when I searched, using multiple terms.

I have a young veiled (named Lua) that my boyfriend and I adopted from PetCo. They weren't sure how old he was, but he was tiny so he must have been just a baby. We have had him since July 23rd. I'm not sure how old he is, as he's only the second cham I have ever owned. Sadly, my first veiled Pascal passed from MBD. Having seen Pascal's decline (with a vet's assurance that he was just mature and there was no issue), I'm certain that Lua has it as well. Lua is much younger than Pascal was, though. I'm absolutely devastated.

I'm making an appointment to take him to a vet in League City, TX, which is a long 30 minute drive away from me but I've gotten great reviews about the vet.
The point is... Can anyone please tell me what is going to be the best, least stressful, method to transport Lua? I can barely think straight, I don't even know what to do. When I took Pascal to the ER, I wrapped him in a blanket and held him close, but I don't want to make an emotional mistake.


Also, I hate threads without pictures, so here are some pictures of Lua as a darling baby and also from just this morning. I might be showing him off a little, he's a beautiful and sweet boy, but please be assured that I am sincerely frightened to lose him.


Thank you all in advance.



Baby Lua and his baby Hibiscus

First picture of the morning, he's such a beauty

He's only just gaped his mouth this afternoon, never before.

I took him for a little sunbathing. He was a little stressed at first, but his colors cooled to bright greens shortly after this picture.

 

[ataraxia]

Hi there, A shoe box with a hand towel in the bottom is one way.

You kid has developed mbd. Here is a basic care sheet to follow.
https://www.chameleonforums.com/blogs/ataraxia/400-basic-chameleon-cycle-care-care-sheet.html

 

[MollyT]

When you took Pascal to the vet, did they not tell you that MBD is caused by improper UVB lighting/supplementing of calcium(both with and without D3 and multivitamins), and proper gutloading of feeders? It doesn't just come about with age. Granted I am not an expert by any means, but my understanding is that MBD is very preventable. I'm not coming down on you, it just seems like the vet should have told you that. Do you supplement Lua? What about gutloading his crickets?

As far as transporting him to the vet, I've heard putting him in a small box with something for him to perch on works. Can he still climb? If not, I would put something soft on the bottom of the box for him to lay on. Best of luck to you and Lua! This is a great place to get information on everything about chameleon husbandry. After the vet visit, any questions you have you can ask here and everyone is so helpful. I hope he recovers from this.

 

[CoyoteNerdy]

Yes, that was an unfortunate lesson the boyfriend and I learned. Pascal traveled to us through three other hands, three other homes, and none of us were properly informed. We were gutloading his crickets, but we used a glass tank so he didn't get the lightning/UVB he needed. Believe me, after Pascal passed, I did my research. Lua's set up is mesh with a ReptiGlo 18w lamp and we began a cricket farm with fresh veggie gutload meals to sustain the crickets. The ER vet informed us that Pascal's condition was not our fault, as he had come to us already very sick. But she also said that it was sometimes just genetic, and that we couldn't always prevent it, only try to protect against it. I don't know how true that is, of course it's the words of someone else, but she was an ex-zoo reptile vet and caretaker and was very knowledgeable when we brought Pascal in.
Honestly, I don't feel like you're coming down on me at all. I am new to the cham world, and I know newbies get the run-through of questions because it's necessary (I've seen enough posts here to understand that). But after Pascal's loss, I did do my homework. If necessary, I can fill out the "Ask For Help" form, but I didn't think that was needed as I was just asking about transportation. I want to make sure that a shoebox and a towel is going to be warm and comfortable for him and not stressful... I intend to do everything to help my little guy.

Also, thanks for the input. I do truly appreciate your words.

When you took Pascal to the vet, did they not tell you that MBD is caused by improper UVB lighting/supplementing of calcium(both with and without D3 and multivitamins), and proper gutloading of feeders? It doesn't just come about with age. Granted I am not an expert by any means, but my understanding is that MBD is very preventable. I'm not coming down on you, it just seems like the vet should have told you that. Do you supplement Lua? What about gutloading his crickets?

 

[CoyoteNerdy]

Lua has the characteristic weak grip of MBD, so he isn't holding himself up very well. He clings and hangs okay, but grabs himself often and does not lift his stomach very much, if at all.
I've seen the level of concern that everyone shows here, so I know I'm in the right place. Everyone here has a heart for their reptibabies and for everyone elses. Thank you, again.



Edit: I do want to add that the first vet who saw Pascal was not the same vet that I took him to see at the ER. The first vet did not have a specialization in reptiles, and that diagnosis (that his fallen crest and rubbery bones was just maturity) was given to the previous owner. My boyfriend and I were very green about the cham world and accepted it.

As far as transporting him to the vet, I've heard putting him in a small box with something for him to perch on works. Can he still climb? If not, I would put something soft on the bottom of the box for him to lay on. Best of luck to you and Lua! This is a great place to get information on everything about chameleon husbandry. After the vet visit, any questions you have you can ask here and everyone is so helpful. I hope he recovers from this.

 

[carol5208]

To my knowledge MBD is not inherited and has everything to do with improper lighting and supplementation. Someone correct me if I am wrong here. I am just a little confused here: If you did all your research, why does your second chameleon have the same MBD as the first one??? I understand the first one came to you like that but how did you second one come down with MBD? Also Lua in the first two pics does NOT have MBD. So something transpired here in the past few months in your care to cause this.

 

[MollyT]

I am still a newbie too. I just know that, unfortunately, a lot of newbies do not get the information they should when they buy chameleons, especially through pet stores. It's really sad. I just wanted to make sure you knew all of that stuff, because a lot of people that come on here don't know. It isn't necessarily their fault, they just weren't given the right information. Honestly, if it hadn't been for this site, I would be very uninformed. I have heard that some chameleons just seem to get it, even though they have had proper care and everything. I'm not sure how that happens. Again, I'm no expert. This is just from what I have read. I really hope you are able to work things out with Lua. Definitely keep us updated!


Edit...By the way, he is a very handsome guy! I love his colors in the third picture. I really enjoy looking at pictures of veileds. I am getting one next week and can't wait!

 

[MollyT]

To my knowledge MBD is not inherited and has everything to do with improper lighting and supplementation. .

You are probably right. I just thought I read somewhere that sometimes(rarely) they can get it even though they have had proper care. Then again, just because I read it doesn't mean it is right. I am no expert, and you would know more than me.....I'm still a noob!

 

[carol5208]

I am still a newbie too. I just know that, unfortunately, a lot of newbies do not get the information they should when they buy chameleons, especially through pet stores. It's really sad. I just wanted to make sure you knew all of that stuff, because a lot of people that come on here don't know. It isn't necessarily their fault, they just weren't given the right information. Honestly, if it hadn't been for this site, I would be very uninformed. I have heard that some chameleons just seem to get it, even though they have had proper care and everything. I'm not sure how that happens. Again, I'm no expert. This is just from what I have read. I really hope you are able to work things out with Lua. Definitely keep us updated!


Edit...By the way, he is a very handsome guy! I love his colors in the third picture. I really enjoy looking at pictures of veileds. I am getting one next week and can't wait!

Molly, I am not so sure about that, but like I said someone correct me if I am wrong. Every single chameleon that I have ever seen on here with MBD was because of something that was lacking either with people not using uvb lighting or not using any calcium supplementation. If it is hereditary, I would love to hear about it. I am not saying it cannot happen but really have not seen any cases on here since I have been a member. Can you tell me where you got your info from?

 

[CoyoteNerdy]

Well, once again that was something that I was told from the reptile specialist who worked several years as caretaker to the reptile house in a zoo. If something has transpired in my care, I am more than willing to speak with my vet and understand how to bring Lua back to health and prevent this from occurring again to him or another cham.
Would you like me to fill out the Ask For Help form? My intention was to find a good method for transportation so that I can do right by Lua in taking him to a highly regarded herp specialist, who I am sure will be able to analyze my habitat, supplementing and gutloading, and the general caretaking of this beautiful boy to help me to understand if and/or what I need to change in the overall plan.

To my knowledge MBD is not inherited and has everything to do with improper lighting and supplementation. Someone correct me if I am wrong here. I am just a little confused here: If you did all your research, why does your second chameleon have the same MBD as the first one??? I understand the first one came to you like that but how did you second one come down with MBD? Also Lua in the first two pics does NOT have MBD. So something transpired here in the past few months in your care to cause this.

 

[CoyoteNerdy]

My Facebook is loaded with pictures of him. He's very sweet! He used to squeal when he was a baby and run when I brought out the mister. His baby squeaks were so cute. He's been a joy to care for, and I really hope to bring him back to great health. Both my veileds, Lua and Pascal, have been absolute characters. Pascal used to hiss if I picked him up, but he was all bark for nothing, and then very cuddly. He loved to sit in the crook of my neck. I'm sure you're going to have a wonderful cham companion with yours.

Edit...By the way, he is a very handsome guy! I love his colors in the third picture. I really enjoy looking at pictures of veileds. I am getting one next week and can't wait!

 

[carol5208]

Coyote, if you have been using the proper supplementation, uvb lighting and temps which can play a role in a chameleon digesting their food properly to aid in the absorption of nutrients such as calcium, then yours may be one of the rare cases. I am not saying it cannot happen. I am just saying it is not the norm and I have never seen a case yet on here since I have been a member. 99% of the time when a person comes to the forum with a cham with MBD we come to find they were not using a uvb light or they never used calcium or sometimes both. If you have done everything properly from day one in your care and your cham still got MBD then it is no fault of yours. It sure would not hurt to fill out the form.

 

[BocaJan]

You should be using a Reptisun 5.0 UV linear light and a household 45watt bulb in a clamp fixture. Your cham needs to have his crickets dusted with calcium without D3 daily except, calcium with D3 twice a month and Reptivite vitamins once a month. Your little guy has MBD. Your vet should give him a shot of calcium and calcium glubionate for you to give by mouth to stop the softening of his bones. MBD can be haulted with lots of attention and proper care.

Proper lighting and the calcium is mandatory. I don't think your lighting is correct but I'm not familiar with your bulb. Most of us use the Reptisun as it is the best. They need to be replaced every 6 months.

 

[carol5208]

You are probably right. I just thought I read somewhere that sometimes(rarely) they can get it even though they have had proper care. Then again, just because I read it doesn't mean it is right. I am no expert, and you would know more than me.....I'm still a noob!

molly and you could be right too. I am by no means an expert or claim to be. I am just going by the chams that have been presented to the forum with MBD. I am sure there are some weird cases that something is awry in their system or make up that does not allow them to absorb calcium. I did not mean to discredit you in anyway.

 

[CoyoteNerdy]

It's very unfortunate that there is so much misinformation around, or just too many opinions and not enough fact. It's difficult to know what is right and wrong, and to discern them for oneself. As a cham newbie, I have to take what everyone says into consideration, but how can I be sure who is correct? I have at least listened with an open mind. Your post has me rethinking my set up, analyzing anything and everything I've done in these past months to find the err in my judgment. If I have made a mistake, then it's an error that has caused my poor Lua to suffer, and it's not something I take lightly. I cannot express in words how my heart aches, for any animal that suffers. I'm a dog rescuer, fostering when I have the ability, and my heart is truly dedicated to animal welfare. Knowing that I may have made a careless mistake is an awful jab to my heart, but the pain is nothing compared to what my poor Lua is going through. I've been crying all evening and sick for him. I promise to work hard for his health.

His appointment will be tomorrow, I will fight for that. I will leave my job and put him first if the appointment conflicts with my schedule.

Molly, I am not so sure about that, but like I said someone correct me if I am wrong. Every single chameleon that I have ever seen on here with MBD was because of something that was lacking either with people not using uvb lighting or not using any calcium supplementation. If it is hereditary, I would love to hear about it. I am not saying it cannot happen but really have not seen any cases on here since I have been a member. Can you tell me where you got your info from?

 

[carol5208]

you sound like a wonderful person who truly cares about your chameleon. Please fill out the form so we can go over everything and make sure it is nothing in your set up or care that caused this. If there is, then we have to move to the next step in trying to get your chameleon better. As you might know, your chameleons MBD cannot be cured but you can halt the progression of it. Her limbs will stay like that but should not get any worse it you get on the right track.

 

[slinko9]

Yes fill out the https://www.chameleonforums.com/how-ask-help-66/ form so we can see every aspect of your Husbandry!!!!

 

[CoyoteNerdy]

Okay, here is all the information. I will take a copy to the vet tomorrow and ask him to adjust and suggest as necessary. I think that is a good idea.


Chameleon Info:
Your Chameleon
Veiled, male, unknown age, and I've had him since July.

Handling
Twice a day, morning and evening. He usually crawls onto my fingers when I reach in to feed him.

Feeding
I feed Lua crickets that I breed in my cricket farm, which we began in August. The original breeding crickets were from a local PetSmart, but I have had many generations since. Their gutload formula consists of a varying variety of mainly apples, lettuce, kale, strawberries, tangerines, it depends on what looks fresh at the farmer's market that day. I also mix in either plain granola or oats, depending on what I have. This is mixed in my blender, and I feed them a bowl (two cups, I'm guessing) and save any extra. Once a week I add the Flucker's yellow jelly on a dish, and sometimes orange cubes because I have a bottle left over. Occasionally I cut up small pieces of fruit, which I have observed him eating rarely.

Supplements
I dust a handful of crickets with Herptivite with Beta Carotene and give these every few days or so. I also have a calcium mush that the ER vet gave me, which I mix ONE part to THREE parts water to make into a liquid.

Watering
I have a humidifier (brand unknown, can supply photos), a spray mister, and the Little Dripper. Humidifier is turned down low at night. Mister is used once a week as necessary, as the spray stresses Lua out and he squeals in fright. I turn on the dripper once in the morning and once at night. He runs to it and drinks until content. Once a month, I give him a warm shower. I put a fake tree in my shower and run a light spray of warm water on the wall, which sprays the tree. He is passive about this method, but he does drink.

Fecal Description
I do not know if he has been tested for parasites, but he will be tomorrow. His droppings are mostly brown/black with a slight white at tip.

History
Store bought from a PetCo near Rosenberg, TX. No prior information given.


Cage Info:
Cage Type
Cage is glass on bottom and three sides, mesh on top and front with hinged doors. 12"x12"x14"

Lighting
Day light on at 8am (Reptiglo 5.0 13wt) and off at night. Night lighting is a Zilla brand Night Black Heat 75wt, comes on at 8pm and off at 8am. Once a day, the boyfriend or I will spend 15 minutes in the sunlight with him (weather permitting).

Temperature
Basking spot is 90º, floor is 80º-85º. 60º-65º at night throughout the cage. I have two stick-on thermometers in the cage as well as a digital air thermometer.

Humidity - What are your humidity levels? How are you creating and maintaining these levels? What do you use to measure humidity?
Humidity provided by humidifier. Used live plants at first, coupled with humidifier, but they proved an unreliable combination. Top level humidity is 50%, bottom is 80%, measured by two humidity thermometers in cage.

Plants - Are you using live plants? If so, what kind?
No live plants anymore. In first month, we used a small hibiscus and pothos, but they would not sustain humidity within cage and created too many pockets of high humidity within coils. Vet warned that this might happen. Change to plastic plants has proved much more reliable.

Placement
Cage is in an east-facing room, underneath a loft bed which hides it from the fan. It sits perhaps 3" above the floor, at my lower thigh level (I am 5'5"). It is beside a covered window which receives morning heat but no light.

Location
The southern side of Houston, Tx

 

[CoyoteNerdy]

I am most concerned with Lua's pain. If he is suffering, I would rather let him humanely sleep it away. It chokes me up to write that, but I can't let Pascal's death be in vain. We were uninformed and uneducated and we failed him, and I do not want to fail Lua in the same way. Oh goodness, I am an emotional wreck today.
If Lua can live a life of contentment and peace, free from pain, then I want to do everything in my power to give him that.

I would like to say that his color looks marvelous tonight, and his mouth is closed. His tongue was protruding earlier, but I'm sure it was due to the VERY small drop of metacam my boyfriend gave him, and his mouth is closed not. No gap. I have been consistently on him like a mother hen. I hope the improved color and closed mouth means improved health in the near future.

you sound like a wonderful person who truly cares about your chameleon. Please fill out the form so we can go over everything and make sure it is nothing in your set up or care that caused this. If there is, then we have to move to the next step in trying to get your chameleon better. As you might know, your chameleons MBD cannot be cured but you can halt the progression of it. Her limbs will stay like that but should not get any worse it you get on the right track.

 

[carol5208]

well the biggest problem I see is your supplementation. You should have been dusting all of your feeders everyday with a plain calcium. The herptivite should only be used two or three times monthly. Most of us a calcium with a d3 a couple of times a month. Not using calcium on a regular basis is mostly likely your problem i am sorry to say. Your temps are a little high also but most likely not any cause of the MBD. Most veild owners bask their chams at around 85 and the cage itself is more in the mid 70 degree range. No lights at night! No heat at night unless your temps are below 50. When were you at the ER with your chameleon?