thoughts on when to aggressively treat

[pantherchameleonpal]

That's wonderful news on the gravid female! How exciting!

 

[ferretinmyshoes]

I finally found my veiled's necropsy report. He had similar lung nodules. At the time of his death it was reported that he had severe pneumonia (despite never showing any respiratory symptoms at all, and kidney failure was the true cause of his death) and the nodules were granulomas - focal points of chronic inflammation - containing numerous bacteria, especially some acid-fast bacillus which was most likely a species of mycoplasma. This is often reported in chameleons in poor hygiene conditions, which obviously mine was not in. He did also have papillomavirus (which I knew about for several years before his death) so I suspect he might have had some immunosuppression either from that or primary that allowed him to succumb to that and other problems like the granulomas. Just fwiw since they looked very similar to the nodules in your pictures. Poor hygiene conditions would not be unheard of in the importation process - conditions are known to be terribly overcrowded and dirty when first collected and in holding facilities before shipment especially. So it may have been something picked up during that process. It is of note to mention that the pathologist commented that there has been no success treating acid-fast bacillus bacteria with medications. If this was something your quad had as well there was probably nothing you could have done about it in that case.

Dayna, Ralph mentioned that he uses an antibiotic, tri-methyl-sufate (TMS) on new imports because it is more gentle than Baytril. He finds that TMS does not suppress the chameleon's appetite like Baytril does. I can't help but wonder if that might have been a good thing to give to Cerulean since in Ralph's experience, it appears to have done some good. Are you aware of others who might have given TMS to chameleons? Thoughts? By TMS, he might have been referring to trimethoprim-sulfa (sometimes called trimethoprim-sulfadiazine) but I'm not sure.

I am still wary of antibiotics in general without a validated cause as it's still something the body has to deal with and process at a time of already being under stress. TMS (there are several varieties but they are essentially the same) doesn't affect appetite as much in my experience either, but it can impact the kidneys just as much as baytril. So in new imports when they're usually dehydrated and have been for some time it still wouldn't be my preference for that reason. With imports sometimes it is hard to tell if the medications given actually worked or if those animals were just stronger and more likely to survive than some of the others from the start and the medications actually had no effect. The tricky part about treating blind.

 

[pamnsam94]

Thanks Dayna. That's very interesting. A lot to think about.

Perry

 

[pamnsam94]

I am still wary of antibiotics in general without a validated cause as it's still something the body has to deal with and process at a time of already being under stress. TMS (there are several varieties but they are essentially the same) doesn't affect appetite as much in my experience either, but it can impact the kidneys just as much as baytril. So in new imports when they're usually dehydrated and have been for some time it still wouldn't be my preference for that reason. With imports sometimes it is hard to tell if the medications given actually worked or if those animals were just stronger and more likely to survive than some of the others from the start and the medications actually had no effect. The tricky part about treating blind.

Once the animal becomes well-hydrated, how would you feel about giving TMS if the underlying cause for an animal going off feed cannot be determined? I understand what you mean though about it being hard to tell whether a particular medication worked or if that animal was just stronger and more likely to survive from the start.

Perry