thoughts on when to aggressively treat

pamnsam94

Established Member
I wasn't quite sure where to start this thread. At first, I thought maybe I should post in the "Memoriam" forum, but I thought it would be more appropriate here since I'm dealing with a subject that I'm sure many keepers have thought about.

This week has been a really tough one for me. Earlier this week, I lost two of my quads, Lazarus and Cerulean, from the December shipment. I don't know for sure what the exact cause of death was in either case, but I have my ideas.

A lot of us, both experienced and novice keepers, have no doubt wondered when to take action and what type of action to take with different health problems. Of course, each case is different depending on many variables. Some keepers, and even vets for that matter, take a more passive approach, depending on the health issue, while other keepers and vets might treat the same health problem more aggressively.

Most of us are aware of the general fragile nature of chameleons, especially wild caught animals, because they often come in with a variety of health issues. With their slow metabolisms, their road to recovery can be a really long one. Even captive born and bred chameleons are known to sometimes turn on a dime for the worse. Sometimes, what seems to be for no apparent reason, a chameleon can appear healthy in the morning but be dead later that day. Trying to determine a cause of death in those situations is often very difficult, even with a vet's assistance.

Thankfully though, many health issues take a while to fully manifest themselves, giving the keeper time to act to hopefully bring the chameleon back to good health. I want to share two such instances of a slow decline in health in order to help other keepers that might be struggling with similar situations.

Broadly speaking, it could be said that there are two general philosophies or approaches on how to treat certain health issues. You have the option to deal with a problem passively or aggressively. An example of a passive approach to newly imported animals would be to mainly focus on hydrating the chameleons and having an environment set up that minimizes stress, realizing that stress can easily lead to a decline in health. An example of an aggressive approach is to use the "shotgun" method in treating parasites, which assumes the chameleons are going to have some parasites. The chameleons are treated even before knowing what parasites they may or may not have.

It's can be tricky and nerve-racking sometimes when trying to decide when to treat something aggressively, with a lot of hands-on intervention, and when to use a more passive approach (e.g. primarily focusing on minimizing stress to allow the chameleon's immune system to be more effective). Sometimes, keepers and vets have to walk a fine line in deciding which approach to use. It's not an exact science and what works for one animal won't necessarily work for another because so many variables come into play.

Anyone who keeps chameleons long enough will eventually experience losing them due to either taking a too passive approach or due to being too aggressive. Sometimes the chameleon is doomed no matter what approach is used. Even an experienced exotics vet, who might see a lot of chameleons, will sometimes use the "wrong" approach which can result in the animal's death. Realizing this, we shouldn't be critical of another keeper just because they, or their vet, used a different approach than we would've used.

Now, having said that, I want to share some thoughts about the health issues that many of the quads from the recent Cameroon shipments had. After a fecal determined that some of the quads in the CA shipment had a lot of nematodes, word was spread that it would be a good idea to aggressively treat all the quads from that import with fenbendazole, considered a safe drug as long as the chameleon is well-hydrated. I really believe that was a wise choice.

Generally, west African chameleons from higher elevations have a reputation for not having nearly as high of a parasite load as east African species, including Madagascar, from warmer, lower elevations. However, since these quads were apparently held for an indeterminate amount of time at an exporter's facility in Equatorial Guinea, I wouldn't be surprised if they picked up additional parasites while there under sub-optimal conditions.

Most of the quads, in the KY shipment at least, were really dehydrated upon arrival and most of them developed varying degrees of edemas. It's my belief that the edemas were a result of kidney malfunction due to being in a chronic state of dehydration prior to arrival. Over time, the edemas have gone away.

When Cheryl took eight of the quads to care for them for a time, Lazarus, the small male I kept, had the biggest edema of all eleven of them. One day, I found him hanging by one foot, eyes glazed over, with "death" colors and his tongue was hanging fully extended out of his mouth. I picked him up and he was limp. He seemed as good as dead.

Incredibly, within a couple of hours, it was like his kidneys received a jump start. He pulled his tongue back in, returned to normal coloration, and started moving and looking around like normal. From that moment on, I called him Lazarus. He lived for weeks and weeks after that, but he stopped eating. Amazingly his large edema disappeared within a couple of days after his near-death experience. He hadn't lost much weight when he died and I have reasons to believe he had kidney problems. The first attached picture is of him before that experience. The second picture is of him afterwards.Like the other quads, he receive three treatments of Panacur.

Cerulean was a beautiful quad with some really pretty blues on him. I'm really sad that he never had a chance to contribute his genes to the captive quad population. I was really looking forward to spreading around any neonates he might have fathered to other quad breeders. I've attached two pictures of him taken on 12/23/14, the day I received him. I might post other pictures of him on this thread, but he never looked as good as he did that first day because he went off feed relatively soon after I got him.

Cerulean's story is a really sad one because, even though I can't know for sure, I feel had I taken a more aggressive approach, he might still be alive. That's easy for me or anyone to say now, but there is no guarantee that such and approach would have worked with him.

When he arrived, Cerulean pooped soon after I took him out of the box. Little did I know that the "sample" he provided that day would be my best opportunity to get a good fecal done. I figured I had plenty of time though. I had no way of knowing that soon after, he would go off feed.

I've kept quads since the 90s and this is this first time I've ever experienced quads going off feed for more than three or four days, and that even includes gravid females. There was something definitely different though about this shipment.

However, since I've had chameleons of other species go off feed before, I felt there was no need to panic. Instead, I simply continued with the more passive approach of making sure his stress was minimized and that his hydration needs were met.

I once had a Meller's chameleon that stopped eating for close to a month. One day, it was as if someone turned on a switch because she began eating like there was no tomorrow. That experience was definitely on my mind at times with Cerulean.

When Cerulean first lost 5 grams, after a starting weight of 60 grams, I thought it wasn't a big deal. After all, I thought, 5 grams is only the weight of a nickel. When he lost another 5 grams, at first I used the same faulty thinking as a reason not to worry too much. I thought of it as him losing 2 nickels worth of weight.

Throughout his weight loss, his grip remained really good, and that, along with my experience with other chameleons going off feed for a while, contributed to me not panicking. I thought that he would turn around and start eating again if I practiced a little more patience. However, as couple more days passed, I became really concerned, although his grip was still strong.

I had tried all sorts of insects, but he would only look at them. However, during the weight loss, on two different occasions, he actually ate on his own. Once he ate two house flies, but that was it. Still, I was really encouraged, thinking that he might be turning a corner. However, he would go right back on a long hunger strike. Then, many days later, he ate a single cricket. Right after that though, he once again went on a hunger strike.

About a day or so after I found out he had lost 10 grams, I decided to start force-feeding him. I only had to gently tap the top of his head and he would open his mouth. It was easy to slip in a small cricket or two which he proceeded to chew and swallow. The whole process took less than a minute and he was back in his cage in no time so I don't think I caused him an undue amount of stress. I don't think the stress from me feeding him that way contributed to his downward spiral.

When I found undigested crickets that seemed to have passed right through him, it became painfully obvious that he wasn't metabolizing much of anything I was feeding him. Even mashed up insects, with their chitinous body parts, would not be effectively metabolized.

I had talked to Cheryl and we exchanged texts about Trooper, who was having very similar symptoms as Cerulean. I had also been following updates on Trooper through Cheryl's posts and learned about how Trooper was maintaining his weight by being tube-fed a critical care diet.

It made sense to me that a liquid diet would be more easily absorbed than one containing chitin. I bought Repta-Aid just to use for a couple of days until I received the Oxbow critical care diet. I also talked to my vet about ordering the Emeraid Omnivore formula (only sold to vets and wildlife rehabilitators).

I'm fortunate to have a friend who's a vet and he was going to give me supplies to tube-feed Cerulean. I had been using a syringe to feed the Repta-Aid product when, one day, I noticed that Cerulean's grip had weakened a bit. At this point I panicked because I know what that often means. Unfortunately, it was too late. He died earlier this week.

Now that I'm finally trying to stop being mad and kicking myself for not being more aggressive sooner in treating Cerulean, what do I take away from this experience? What would I have done differently and what would I advise others to do if they find themselves in a similar situation?

One critical piece of information that I want to pass on comes from an article a vet wrote about weight loss in reptiles. Unfortunately, I can't find it now to provide a link. Although, as already mentioned, an approach, either aggressive or passive, that works for one chameleon isn't necessarily going to work for another, in the article the vet recommended tube-feeding a liquid diet when the reptile loses 10% of its body mass. That basically means that I should have started tube-feeding Cerulean when he dropped down to 54 grams. Of course, there's no guarantee it would have worked, but at least I think it might have bought me time until the underlying cause of his hunger strike could have been determined.

Another aggressive approach I could have taken, though it involves risk, is to treat for flagellates with metronidazole and to treat for Coccidea with ponazuril. Of course I would prefer not to give any medications without knowing what parasites he actually had, but because I couldn't get a good sample to do a fecal, in my opinion it would have been worth the risk, though that's easy for me to say now.

I would advise anyone to seriously consider tube-feeding a liquid diet when a chameleon loses 10% of its body weight and you can't immediately determine the underlying cause of the weight loss. However, I'd only recommend you do that if you are shown how and if you are able to do it quickly and safely. Also, of course, it's good to consult a vet who is familiar with chameleons to learn about the benefits that tube-feeding might have in any particular case.

I'm not sure about the date the article I read was written. There may be newer information, and I would think that 10% is not a percentage that all vets would agree with. However, tube-feeding might at least buy you time.

Lastly, I would get a sample ASAP to take to a vet, or do it yourself if you know how, so you'll know what type of parasites you might be dealing with and how heavy the load is. Once you are armed with that information, a decision can be made of when and if to treat.

I had planned to first treat with 3 doses of Panacur, which I did, then I was going to get a sample and have my vet check for other parasites. You never know though when or if you'll be able to get a good sample to test so take in the very first one if at all possible. You might not get another chance.

Next time I deal with wild caughts, I'll have the tubes and a critical care liquid diet on hand just in case and you can bet that I'll get a fecal as soon as possible.

With other conditions like nose rubs, scratches or even those scabs that appear along the dorsal crest, I've always used a "hands-off" passive approach. I've never had to apply ointments, etc., because they've always healed just fine on their own. The chameleon's immune system can work wonders if they are in a low stress environment but it might take time due to their slow metabolisms. I wouldn't tell anyone though that they shouldn't put something on those types of injuries. If it can be done without overly stressing the animal, it might even speed the healing process.

Perry
 

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Attached are two pics of Cerulean after I opened him up. I noticed a few suspicious looking spots on one of his lungs. Those may be a stage in the life cycle of some parasite. I'm not sure. Also, I cut open his stomach and it contained undigested crickets. Things just didn't seem to be moving though his G.I. tract, and what little did hadn't really been metabolized.

Perry
 

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Perry, I am so sorry you lost these guys, it is a sad blow :(
I dont know if going to an aggressive treatment would have helped them or not, as you said, each one has similar but different issues - before I started to tube feed, I talked to Laurie, and Ralph , I will admit, I was nervous to start him on it- but I also knew he too , was just not gaining any ground, and slowly going down hill - I used the Emerald omni/ diet, with added live bugs, blended , and then ran thew a screen to remove the bigger parts - and fed 2 cc 3 X a day, and slowly cut back the feeding after 2 or so weeks, he was the only one who I treated this way, the others had a few set backs as you also saw, the edema issues- but they all seemed to get over that - and the odd thing I did notice, was Trooper, the worst, almost had no edema at any point ? your lung pic is very interesting to me - Trooper has what I thought to be a URI, but I now wonder if he did not have those lung issues too - he and your bigger boy seemed to have the same thing- the spot on the upper left, looks "dead" or puss filled , the other , you can see what looks to be a blood supply, I will be curious to see what these turn out to be- did your vet see these ? what were his thoughts ? if you would like, I can ask my vet to look at the pic - see what he may think - if he had these, I wonder if the danoflaxon I put him on for the bone/uri helped him fight off what may have turned into an infection had he not been on it ?
I was so worried when I spoke to you about the boys, I wish we would have had more time, I could have mailed you some CC, but at least you will have it now - I am sure this was a hard post for you to write, and I thank you for doing it- and posting the pics of the lungs - the more info we can share to each other, the more we can work together to gain ground on how to treat these odd health issues - I know my "treatment" was a little outside the box, some of the things I did, I asked Laurie first, because it was not the "normal" way - but it seems to have worked, at least for now- I know , as you said, they can look great in the AM, and dead that night- IF something should happen to Trooper, I will also look inside, but I hope he stays on the upswing - again, so sorry for your loss- :(
 
Quite a while ago there was an iridovirus discovered in quad chameleons...I wonder if it could have anything to do with these imports? Andy Beveridge found it in some of his quads. If you do a search you can find information about it. (I'm not able to cut and paste since I can't remember how to do it on a computer after using a playbook for so long.)
 
My philosophy for what it is worth- aggressive treatment of recent imports. It is a roll of the dice either way, and I'd rather be treating them while they are still relatively strong, than dealing with a problem later that has weakened them further. Stress, dehydration, hunger, are already players anyway by the time they reach us after purchase. So the end result is usually going to be a compromised immune system. I think it is better just to go ahead and treat. Even then, a percentage will be lost for whatever reason. Either way, some will be lost.
 
So sorry that you lost those two but hopefully some thing can be learned from them. The 10% body weight lost rule is still a good general guideline for many species. It's my cutoff for pulling turtles/torts out of hibernation, to determine when a snake is not just fasting during breeding season, when assist feeding or feeding tubes might need to be placed, etc.

I've taken both approaches with some of mine and with some patients and it's met with variable succes because as you know there are so many factors that are different in individual animals. I've had some rebound and do wonderfully and there are others where no matter what their chances were slim from the start and to do nothing is just as harmful as doing everything. Like some with severe parasite loads - the massive die off of worms caused by deworming can cause tremendous shock to the body and even kill them but if not dewormed the parasites are killing them too. It takes experience, education, and a gut feeling based on those experiences to determine which category they fall in.

How long after passing did you do the necropsy and was he frozen first?
 
It's so hard to know...

Firstly, I will start off by saying that this is my first post, that I know next to nothing about chameleons, but know more than I did a week ago because of all of you on these forum pages.

My daughter owns a female panther. Name is Luna, 2 years old, very sweet tempered and up until last weekend she was eating and drinking well, but very suddenly she wasn't looking too good and went off her food. My daughter came home from work and called me to look at her. She was on the bottom of her vivariam looking very sorry for herself :(

Her skin looked quite white-ish in patches, like she hadn't shed properly, she had bumps on her left eye turret which we assumed had come from bites from her live food (I have now learned that she shouldn't be left alone with locusts) and she looked dehydrated.

We up'd her misting to 4 times daily and she takes drinks from the mister at the same time but she wouldn't eat.

By Thursday of last week we took her to the vet because although she looked better than she did on Sunday we know something isn't right.

The vet did a fecal and found worm eggs, an x-ray (she's never laid any eggs and he was looking for what he felt was a solid mass in her abdomen), blood tests (which showed that her white cell count is 3x the norm) and he took a biopsy from her skin for send off to the lab, we are awaiting the results of that. The bill so far is eye watering but we couldn't leave her as she was.

The treatment, getting back to the point of aggressive treatment is that we were shown how to inject meds into the muscle of her right forearm and then tube feed her with some concentrated food and oral meds (mixed) - which we have to do every night for at least a week. We watched the vet do it and for the first time I saw Luna try to bite someone, she was very angry with all of us.

Tonight is our first attempt at giving all her meds and I'm dreading it. She's so little and we are so not qualified for this but she needs us to help her. It feels very aggressive, but for us it is the right thing to do. I'm glad we took consultation from a reptile specialist when we did.

Her biopsy results should be back on Monday and we have to take her back in a week. I hope it's not terrible news. I know that not all skin conditions are treated terribly successfully

Wish us luck.
 
Perry, I am so sorry you lost these guys, it is a sad blow :( ...and the odd thing I did notice, was Trooper, the worst, almost had no edema at any point ? your lung pic is very interesting to me...I will be curious to see what these turn out to be- did your vet see these ? what were his thoughts ? if you would like, I can ask my vet to look at the pic - see what he may think...I am sure this was a hard post for you to write, and I thank you for doing it- and posting the pics of the lungs - the more info we can share to each other, the more we can work together to gain ground on how to treat these odd health issues - I know my "treatment" was a little outside the box, some of the things I did, I asked Laurie first, because it was not the "normal" way - but it seems to have worked, at least for now- I know , as you said, they can look great in the AM, and dead that night- IF something should happen to Trooper, I will also look inside, but I hope he stays on the upswing - again, so sorry for your loss- :(

Thanks Cheryl. I really appreciate your kind words. I am so glad Trooper is doing well now. You did a great job helping him recover. When I was taking care of him, before he or Cerulean went off feed, he readily hand fed for me, much more so than Cerulean ever did. I really liked his temperament. Hope he continues to do better.

I find it interesting that you mentioned that Trooper had almost no edema. I noticed that too. Similarly, Cerulean, who went off feed and was lethargic, just like Trooper, never had any edema, even though most of the others developed one to varying degrees. Fortunately, for the ones that did develop edemas, they have now, maybe simply through continued good hydration, almost completely disappeared.

Please, by all means, have your vet look at the pics. I'd love to know if they have any comments. My vet hasn't seen them yet. Most of the time, when I've opened one of my chameleons up, it usually has been an effort to extract eggs from a WC or else to determine or confirm the sex of a Meller's chameleon.

While I'm in there, I try to learn something about chameleon anatomy using photos of chameleon necropsies I find on the internet. If exotic vets knowledgeable about chameleons would have done necropsies on the many animals that I've had die over my over 25 years of chameleon keeping, no doubt I would be much better off with the knowledge I would have gained. Imagine if all chameleon keepers would have necropsies done of every animal they lost, especially those that died for unknown causes. How far along would we be?

Like many keepers, I'm often on a tight budget, and having four young kids to raise doesn't help free up any funds to pay for necropsies. I have a vet friend who often gives me discounts on services and even sometimes provides them or supplies for free. However, I've never asked him to do a necropsy on one of my animals. I'd feel terrible if either he or I felt like I was taking advantage of his generosity. In addition, he doesn't own his own practice, and I wouldn't want him to get any negative feedback from the owner.

Perry
 
Quite a while ago there was an iridovirus discovered in quad chameleons...I wonder if it could have anything to do with these imports? Andy Beveridge found it in some of his quads. If you do a search you can find information about it. (I'm not able to cut and paste since I can't remember how to do it on a computer after using a playbook for so long.)

Thanks. I'll check it out.

Perry
 
My philosophy for what it is worth- aggressive treatment of recent imports. It is a roll of the dice either way, and I'd rather be treating them while they are still relatively strong, than dealing with a problem later that has weakened them further. Stress, dehydration, hunger, are already players anyway by the time they reach us after purchase. So the end result is usually going to be a compromised immune system. I think it is better just to go ahead and treat. Even then, a percentage will be lost for whatever reason. Either way, some will be lost.

I agree that it's a roll of the dice sometimes. I'm definitely in agreement about the time to treat is when they are still relatively strong. The problem is you never know when the drop in strength might happen. In Cerulean's case, the drop in strength, while not dramatic, was very sudden. While there was a slow decline in weight, his grip strength dropped overnight. However, I should note that I had no way to objectively measure that. My judgement was subjective and based on how strong his grip seemed to be when I took him out of his enclosure to feed him. I also agree that some will always be lost no matter what approach we take. This experience, with the first group of quads I've ever kept where some went off feed, has definitely persuaded me to take a more aggressive approach with wild caughts when dealing with some health issues, losing 10% of their weight being a primary one.

Perry
 
So sorry that you lost those two but hopefully some thing can be learned from them. The 10% body weight lost rule is still a good general guideline for many species. It's my cutoff for pulling turtles/torts out of hibernation, to determine when a snake is not just fasting during breeding season, when assist feeding or feeding tubes might need to be placed, etc.

I've taken both approaches with some of mine and with some patients and it's met with variable succes because as you know there are so many factors that are different in individual animals. I've had some rebound and do wonderfully and there are others where no matter what their chances were slim from the start and to do nothing is just as harmful as doing everything. Like some with severe parasite loads - the massive die off of worms caused by deworming can cause tremendous shock to the body and even kill them but if not dewormed the parasites are killing them too. It takes experience, education, and a gut feeling based on those experiences to determine which category they fall in.

How long after passing did you do the necropsy and was he frozen first?

Thanks Dayna. It's good to know that the "10% loss of body weight" guideline is still relevant. I really wish that I would have searched for a certain percentage earlier. If I was armed with that little tidbit of information, I may at least have been able to buy more time in trying to determine why he might have gone off feed in the first place.

Unfortunately, I never opened him up right away. I was just too upset about losing him that I didn't even want to bother with it at first. So, he was frozen before I thawed him out to cut him open. Hopefully though, someone might be able to provide some insight on what those spots on his lungs might have been.

Janet had a small male that died from lung worms. I had an older reference that mentioned that Panacur would kill lung worms in reptiles. However, Janet's vet provided a more recent article that fenbendazole does not work outside the G.I. tract in reptiles. In your experience, is that always the case? Janet's vet mentioned that nothing could have been done to save Janet's small male. I'm not doubting that at all, but I'm just curious to what degree, if any, fenbendazole might work outside the G.I. tract of chameleons.

Thanks for your feedback.

Perry
 
I agree that it's a roll of the dice sometimes. I'm definitely in agreement about the time to treat is when they are still relatively strong. The problem is you never know when the drop in strength might happen. In Cerulean's case, the drop in strength, while not dramatic, was very sudden. While there was a slow decline in weight, his grip strength dropped overnight. However, I should note that I had no way to objectively measure that. My judgement was subjective and based on how strong his grip seemed to be when I took him out of his enclosure to feed him. I also agree that some will always be lost no matter what approach we take. This experience, with the first group of quads I've ever kept where some went off feed, has definitely persuaded me to take a more aggressive approach with wild caughts when dealing with some health issues, losing 10% of their weight being a primary one.

Perry

Perry, Thank you for writing this post. I know it was hard. As we've discussed privately, you know I'm dealing with one dicey individual and really appreciate reading others' experiences. Trust your subjective judgement that things are not right, even if you can't quantify the grip strength or whatever else is bothering you about the animal. That gut feeling is often right. (I once had a deathly ill newborn and the doctor and I were watching him and talking--I said I didn't like something about his breathing. That was all it took--she always followed the instincts of mothers--he was off to a top pediatric hospital.)
 
Unfortunately, I never opened him up right away. I was just too upset about losing him that I didn't even want to bother with it at first. So, he was frozen before I thawed him out to cut him open. Hopefully though, someone might be able to provide some insight on what those spots on his lungs might have been.

Ok that's good to know. The reason I ask is you will have significant changes to the organs after freezing so unfortunately you can't tell as much when you necropsy a previously frozen specimen. I suspected that was the case since the liver is black. If this had been a fresh necropsy that would have been extremely abnormal, but a common finding after freezing. Similarly the lungs do not look healthy even without the spots, but that can also be seen after freezing. The spots themselves could have been encysted larvae of a parasite, granulomas, abscesses, etc. My veiled that died a few years ago had a few of those and I sent them off for histopath and they back as granulomas I belive (will have to go look at his report again), which can be due to chronic inflammation or a few other causes. Did you happen to cut them open? The stomach looks normal but the intestines all look dilated, which was probably due to ileus (slowing or stopping of the GI movement). This would go along with seeing some in digested crickets.

I am always happy to help look at necropsy pictures btw! So much can be learned from necropsies, even though it is sad to have to do it. You opened him up with great technique and took good pics!

Janet had a small male that died from lung worms. I had an older reference that mentioned that Panacur would kill lung worms in reptiles. However, Janet's vet provided a more recent article that fenbendazole does not work outside the G.I. tract in reptiles. In your experience, is that always the case? Janet's vet mentioned that nothing could have been done to save Janet's small male. I'm not doubting that at all, but I'm just curious to what degree, if any, fenbendazole might work outside the G.I. tract of chameleons.

This is something I haven't dealt with yet as this would only be found in wc and luckily most of my patients are cb, or they don't let me do diagnostics if their wc die so it may have been missed completely. I need to go through the articles Janet posted and see if some the other herp vets in a group I'm part of have seen it more. I'll let you guys know what I find.
 
Thanks Dayna. That's really helpful. I didn't see your response until just now. I don't know how I missed it. I wish I would have opened him up right after he died, but I just didn't want to deal with it at the time. I was thinking that things weren't really moving through him, and it's interesting to know now that the intestines were dilated probably because of that.

I was wondering about parasitic cysts in the lungs, but it's interesting to know of some of the other possibilities of what they might have been. I only tried to cut one of them out, but it sort of fell apart (kind of mushy). Might they have been in a state of decay? I wondered that, but then I read that fenbendazole (if they were cysts) doesn't really work outside of the GI tract. Still wondering if that's the case 100% of the time with chameleons. If those spots were something living, I wouldn't think they would have decayed enough, after just a day of being frozen, that they would fall apart so easily. Or, might the freezing and thawing process itself account for that since they are so small and probably delicate?

When you mentioned chronic inflammation as a cause, are you saying chronic inflammation of the lungs since that's where the spots were? Can you mention a few things that might have been a cause of the chronic inflammation, if that indeed what it was?

I mentioned that I thought tube-feeding a liquid diet might have at least bought me more time until the root cause of his hunger strike could be determined. Since I wasn't able to get a good fecal on him (things simply were not moving through him), what are a couple of relatively safe meds that could have probably been given to him using a "shotgun" approach. I thought that maybe I should have used that approach with metronidazole, just in case he had flagellates. I had already given 3 doses of Panacur, based on the high numbers of nematodes found in the CA shipment. How about other meds that aren't used for parasites? Any suggestions as to what I could have given him using a shotgun approach? Thanks

Perry
 
Anyone else have any input as to what those things on his lungs are? Dayna gave some good possibilities. Have any of you seen something just like this?
 
I was wondering about parasitic cysts in the lungs, but it's interesting to know of some of the other possibilities of what they might have been. I only tried to cut one of them out, but it sort of fell apart (kind of mushy). Might they have been in a state of decay?

Possibly. They can die even without the help of a dewormer of course. Or being mushy might have been an abscess, which could have been because worms migrated through the area or completely unrelated. It could have been pneumonia that had an area of bacteria that got walled off by the body trying to defeat it. The lungs do look like they had pneumonia recently, but then again that might be some freezing artifact. Or it could have been pneumonia a long time ago that resolved but left behind pockets of infection or inflammation and then you can get granulomas. Could have been that he at some point aspirated or inhaled particulate matter like dirt. Those would be some causes of chronic inflammation. And it could have all happened long before you got him. My veiled's necropsy report is in my folder at work so I'll have to check that tomorrow to remember the specifics of his...

I wondered that, but then I read that fenbendazole (if they were cysts) doesn't really work outside of the GI tract. Still wondering if that's the case 100% of the time with chameleons.

I'm still looking for more documentation dealing with this. It may be something people have experienced but not published. But still looking...

If those spots were something living, I wouldn't think they would have decayed enough, after just a day of being frozen, that they would fall apart so easily. Or, might the freezing and thawing process itself account for that since they are so small and probably delicate?
That is a possibility. Freezing basically exploded the cells with ice crystals so when they thaw later everything can just kind of fall apart depending on what it was and how affected it was.

I mentioned that I thought tube-feeding a liquid diet might have at least bought me more time until the root cause of his hunger strike could be determined. Since I wasn't able to get a good fecal on him (things simply were not moving through him), what are a couple of relatively safe meds that could have probably been given to him using a "shotgun" approach. I thought that maybe I should have used that approach with metronidazole, just in case he had flagellates. I had already given 3 doses of Panacur, based on the high numbers of nematodes found in the CA shipment. How about other meds that aren't used for parasites? Any suggestions as to what I could have given him using a shotgun approach? Thanks

I probably would have only done feeding, maybe panacur and let his body deal with that before trying anything else. Medications can have detrimental effects if given without cause. Metronidazole can cause loss of appetite so I probably wouldn't have gone that route yet. And antibiotics probably wouldn't have done anything in this case as I don't see evidence of active infection on your necropsy pictures except maybe the lungs but hard to say since there's freezing artifact. And when the body is already stresses unnecessary medications can definitely do more harm than good, especially since many antibiotics are hard on the kidneys. Supportive care (feeding, hydration) is often the best until you can find a treatable cause.

Sending the tissues for histopathology (microscopic analysis) is the only way you could get more answers in the future, and it has to be done before freezing. And it's usually not cheap, but can give some excellent info. Especially when you have a collection involved. That's how viruses can be identified as well as localized disease and probable cause of death. Not something everyone has access to or is willing to do but worth thinking about. I totally get not wanting to open him up right away. I try to send everyone's tissues for histopath (to be fair, I get a discount) to learn as much as I can from them when they pass, but when Buster my jacksons died a few months ago it was so unexpected that I couldn't bear to do his necropsy. It was just so sudden and heartbreaking and even though I deal with death as part of my job all the time I still just couldn't do it...
 
Thanks Dayna. When I first opened him up, I immediately noticed the condition of his lungs and wondered if it was just due to the freezing/thawing process. It really struck me how different his lungs looked compared to the references I had looked at, but because I understand how delicately thin their lungs are, I figured that it was due to the freezing/thawing. He didn't show any symptoms like I look for when a chameleon has a RI but like you mentioned, he might have had pneumonia prior to the time I had him. I really wish I would have cut him open right away so I would know what his lungs looked like at his time of death.

Perry
 
Dayna, Ralph mentioned that he uses an antibiotic, tri-methyl-sufate (TMS) on new imports because it is more gentle than Baytril. He finds that TMS does not suppress the chameleon's appetite like Baytril does. I can't help but wonder if that might have been a good thing to give to Cerulean since in Ralph's experience, it appears to have done some good. Are you aware of others who might have given TMS to chameleons? Thoughts? By TMS, he might have been referring to trimethoprim-sulfa (sometimes called trimethoprim-sulfadiazine) but I'm not sure.

Perry
 
Don't know how I missed this, but I'd just like to also chime in on how sorry I am for your loss. They were two very beautiful chameleons. The aftermath of always trying to figure out what we did or didn't do is usually one of the hardest things that comes with keeping chameleons. I don't know how much help I'll be with your quest to find answers but the spots on his lungs do appear to be cyst shaped. They have a uniform size, and a clearly bulbous shape that makes me believe that something could be within them. As for the medications - panacur and baytril are the only two that I've worked with so as for advice for the later I don't have any. But it definitely gives me something to look into. And I like the idea of having something different because the effects of baytril does indeed make me nervous to use them. When working with WC, or in my case, I've never had a good weight to start working with. Adding some type of medication that could make that situation more negative only adds on to the confusion. Aggressively treating has also been something that I have thought of before, but I guess didn't necessarily know how to ask about it. When I was working with a sick verrucosus my personal opinion was to try to bring her weight up before medication. After a few weeks of no improvement I went to the vet and accepted baytril with all my internal fears just because I thought I had no other alternative. Having alternatives makes me a little bit happier and gives me more options - which I like!
All in all Perry I'm so sorry. That last picture of him with the white almost sky blue coloration is my favorite of him. He was very gorgeous and handsome chameleon.

Zac
 
Thanks Zac. He really was a spectacular looking animal. I'm particularly disappointed that he won't be contributing his genes to the captive quad population.

Thankfully though, the female is still doing well (she's gained 20 grams), and I have hope she will lay fertile eggs sometime soon. I was really noticing an egg outline right above her hind leg earlier today. I took in a sample to my vet friend a couple of days ago. Thankfully, nothing was found with a float or smear.

While at the vet's, my friend, Rob, took me through the process, step by step, of doing fecals. Though I've read about many forum members doing their own fecals before, I hadn't done one myself, so being able to participate in the process was very informative. I asked about how steep the learning curve might be for me to routinely do my own, and Rob said it wasn't very steep. The last time I had routinely looked through microscopes was back in college. I have a pretty good microscope that is on loan to me for and indeterminate amount of time, though I suspect it will be for a very, very long time.

After I acquire some of the other materials, it will be nice to be able to do fecals more frequently, especially when I have a really fresh sample to look at, although I'll still have them done by my vet depending on the particular situation.

The gravid female I have is one of the 3 largest standard quad females (all of which were gravid) that came in the KY shipment of 11 animals (2 of those 11 were a pair of gracilior with a gravid female). Of those 11, within days, I felt best about the health of the 3 largest standard quad females. As far as I know, the other 2 of those females are still doing well. One has laid 9 eggs, but I'm not sure if the other has laid yet. I haven't seen it on the forums if she has.

Perry
 
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