Thoughts about WC

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OntarioLizardman

New Member
hey guys, i was just wondering what peoples general ideas and thoughts about buy/keeping/importing WC and the treatment they receive when imported. i think its good for people to discuss and think about these things. thanks!

p.s my ideas about this are fairly negative, personally i am fairly against buying something that someone picked of the tree and sells for a pet.
 
First, I have no experience with WC animals, so this is only opinion and not bolstered by data. I am in favor of captive bred if and when possible, but recognize some situations in which it may not be, or in which wild caught would be desirable. My understanding is that breeders will bring in wild caught animals to introduce/maintain genetic diversity to bloodlines; I have no need to buy a WC panther, but I can understand the value, particularly in the relatively uncommon locales, of bringing in "fresh blood". Also, some species are rarely or not available as CB, due to low interest, or poor understanding of husbandry. Pygmies can be captive bred, but many species produce low clutch size, and the prices I see on the commonest pygs (e.g. brevs) indicate that the pet store people have little incentive to spend the time and effort to captive breed. When I get my pygs (hopefully soon! - March should finally be warm enough to ship to Michigan), they will likely be WC, but I am hopeful of setting up a self-sustaining colony, with a few infusions of additional WC or, if I can get them, CB, specimens over the next few years to increase genetic diversity. I would not buy WC if I did not already have a good relationship with the dealer/importer, and know that the animals are being properly quarantined upon arrival, treated for parasites, and established in good health prior to sale.
 
If it werent for WC animals, None of us would have chameleons. However, I am glad there are permits and paperwork and such to stop most people from taking chameleons from their natural habitat and importing them to North America (and I assume Europe too?).
 
I have had lots of WC's over the years. When I first started keeping chameleons over 25 years ago (geesh, has it really been THAT long??) there were only WC's and "everybody" asked me why I would buy a chameleon because they said it would be dead in two weeks. My first, a WC adult Senegal adult male lived for over a year. My second, WC adult female, unsure of the species, lived 4+ years.

I didn't like the idea of taking them out of the wild but it was the only way to get them then. Later on, getting WC's to start off with meant that you were almost sure of getting unrelated or inbred ones....so I would start my lines off with WC's a lot of the time...adding in CB ones along the way to continue the lines if I had too.

Last year my original two veiled lines ended after about 15 years. :(

At first I didn't know what a chameleon would have gone through to get here....so it didn't bother me. It did bother me when I found out. It was hard for anyone to get anything done about it though.
 
kinyonga said:
At first I didn't know what a chameleon would have gone through to get here....so it didn't bother me. It did bother me when I found out. It was hard for anyone to get anything done about it though.
Click to expand...

What happens? Sorry for getting a little off topic.
 
Syn: When the majority of animals are imported over here they are kept in crappy conditions. From what I've heard in one of my classes they are basically wrapped up in burlap and stacked onto each other in a cardboard box. This may be completely different with certain exporters, but in general it is not good. Usually when you see wild caught chameleons, they will come in with broken toes etc because they were literally ripped off the tree at night.

http://www.skypoint.com/members/mikefry/wildcaughthealth.html

thats an article on what a wild caught chameleon may have gone through.

edit: while I believe this is bad, I am not against owning WC Chameleons at all. If they were already put through a traumatic experience we might as well try and make their life here better. It's not like they are going to ship them back and put them back in the tree if we dont buy them. They will either sit in a pet store and eventually die or be sold for extremely cheap to someone that doesn't know what they are doing and then the owner will probably come here asking for help :)
 
As a "pet" WC chams should be avoided. However breeders should introduce WC animals to produce more genetic diversity.
 
RichardTexasHerp said:
my ideas about this are fairly negative, personally i am fairly against buying something that someone picked of the tree and sells for a pet.
Click to expand...

As was previously mentioned any chameleons you may have are recent ancestors of wild caught animals, so the ethical concerns are dubious.

I do not consider chameleons "pets". They are an avocation for me which encompasses many areas (insect keeping, horticulture, etc)
WC animals offer research and discovery opportunities in the hobby, as Lynda mentions ... not that long ago people couldn't keep chameleons alive for more than a few weeks in captivity.

So, I agree that the conditions in many cases leave much to be desired, however, without the importation of wild caught animals this hobby would not exist and we would know a lot less about these amazing animals.

-Brad
 
all good thoughts peps! i think this is something we all should talk and think about, and recently i have been thinking about these things alot. after hearing stories about the book " The Lizard King" ( i havent read yet, but i plan to, but from what ive heard we should all read it) and seeing recent videos about care of imported animals, and now my conscience speaking to me about my pygmies... so im curious. i dont think we need to throw the baby out with the bath water. i dont think all WC are bad ideas, there may be needs for them, but what all of those needs are and how often i dont know.

Brad- ethical concerns dubious? i think theres a big difference in between giving money to and supporting captive bred animals, rather than giving money to and supporting importers of WC. Yes, we can say that the only reason there are CB is because WC, but this was past, now we have better ways of obtaining specimens. we say the same thing about wheels on a car. we have new and better ways to get wheels, so why resort to making them out of stone again? (importing)

and also i dont think that the fact that they were treated badly and we should take them out is always the best logic ether. by definition giving money to someone will only make them realize that they can get away with the treatment they are giving to their animals, and consequently they will treat more animals this way. fact: if we stop buying from importers, they will stop taking them off trees. lol. (of course it is not black and white, but supply demandish)

can we all claim that our animals are not "pets" but hobby/research? and does this mean that your reasons for keeping them are better than reasons for anyone else to keep them? im pointing this finger at myself too.

lets keep the ideas coming! :)
 
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My first chameleon was captive hatched. I had limited understanding of what that meant at the time. But I am happy I had the opportunity to have Simon with me for more than seven years. he was, like all chameleons are, a fantastic creature and introduced me to a hobby I much enjoy. I'm not thrilled about the idea of importing WC animals, and I purchase only CB animals now. But I am very much aware that, like others have said, without the WC animals there wouldnt be CB animals at all, and if imports ceased we might eventually be left with only inbreed potentially unhealthy animals.

I will leave importing to other people, my conscience is more comfortable buying Captive Bred chameleons.
 
My opinion is that if an importer is doing everything in their own power and more to make sure that these chams are not being mistreated then I think its fine to support them as long as it doesn't get outta control. Meaning they aren't just selling to anyone who doesn't know anything about their care, they aren't over collecting them from the wild, and they aren't mass selling them just for a profit. if the importer generally cares to just make money the chams are not going to be in the best health, but if the importer really cares for these creatures then they will be in the best care they can provide and I think that is the difference. We need to, as hobbyists, avoid importers who treat our chams less then our standards and we need to stick with not buying from them evil people because of thos reasons. We should not buy the cheaper cham just because its cheep but spend more money on something we know is well taken care of and loved. We should also look into who we buy our chams from. Ive chose to not buy from people who i do not know information about. That doesn't mean that I'm not going to try to find information about them, but simply if they don't offer it or reply the information i want then i will not get from them.
 
nightcrawler said:
My opinion is that if an importer is doing everything in their own power and more to make sure that these chams are not being mistreated then I think its fine to support them as long as it doesn't get outta control.
We should also look into who we buy our chams from. Ive chose to not buy from people who i do not know information about. That doesn't mean that I'm not going to try to find information about them, but simply if they don't offer it or reply the information i want then i will not get from them.
Click to expand...

Ok I got to respond to this but under a totally different light! Replace the Importer with a Mass quantity Chameleon pusher (seller) Not an actual breeder, but a pet store or organization within our borders that are pushing product (chameleons) by mass numbers, for mass profit! And to top it off, selling to unknowlageable, untrained people, without the concerns of the chameleons lifespan after the sale! This is happening on a large scale right here around us with both CB & WC. I am to state, that, "what I am saying does not at all apply to the serious loving caring breeders that are out there." The ones I talk of are most always not the ones that usually actually breed the amimals. But only buy the Chams to resell at large profits by moving mass quantities! Some poeple on these forums purchased animals from these so called dealers, and thats why they are here trying to learn and understand how to care for an animal that was not properly represented and understood by even the seller. A greater % of these animals sold are dead within months of the sale. Hmm? ask the chameleon babysitter here that just got involved with the forums, how the Cham they babysitted was to have lived and almost inevitably would have died if they had not have been involved! Good thing they stepped in and CARED<> Thanks need lots more like you out there.

Just a different side to this thought?
 
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I can't say if my neighbor and his father bought the little girl WC or from a local breeder, but I can tell you she was bought sick and raised sick and incorrectly. Here's to a better future for her.
 
Titan said:
Ok I got to respond to this but under a totally different light! Replace the Importer with a Mass quantity Chameleon pusher (seller) Not an actual breeder, but a pet store or organization within our borders that are pushing product (chameleons) by mass numbers, for mass profit! And to top it off, selling to unknowlageable, untrained people, without the concerns of the chameleons lifespan after the sale! This is happening on a large scale right here around us with both CB & WC. I am to state, that, "what I am saying does not at all apply to the serious loving caring breeders that are out there." The ones I talk of are most always not the ones that usually actually breed the amimals. But only buy the Chams to resell at large profits by moving mass quantities! Some poeple on these forums purchased animals from these so called dealers, and thats why they are here trying to learn and understand how to care for an animal that was not properly represented and understood by even the seller. A greater % of these animals sold are dead within months of the sale. Hmm? ask the chameleon babysitter here that just got involved with the forums, how the Cham they babysitted was to have lived and almost inevitably would have died if they had not have been involved! Good thing they stepped in and CARED<> Thanks need lots more like you out there.

Just a different side to this thought?
Click to expand...

Touche. I agree with you totally but I was only speaking of the WC side of chams not the all horrible side of everything that could be. And I think that my statement applies to these kinds of stores too. We all pretty much follow with these rules of not buying from stores such as petsmart or other stores who care little about the animals but just push them out the door.

Let me ask you this, how do you feel about LLL and Reptile Depot then?
they seem to be big sellers of chameleons, and i always see their ads on kingsnake looking for lots and lots of baby vields.
 
Ya nailed it!, Hey your statment above mine was very good, I just see the terrible Cham mistreatment right here within our borders too. And yes I am talking of pushers just as you have suggested, and the same on smaller number profit pushers also. This also includes some, lets say Dirty breeders. I got out of breeding Veilds, as to me it was easy and produced alot. Problem for me was knowing all my Babies sold might not have a good chance in life without being able to select the ones sold to. These large companies wanting "lots" of 100 are buying cheap selling fast? imagine what skill is put into the survival of those sold Chams?
 
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