RyU
New Member
How often do you change the substrate? Don't the springtails get out?
The reason why you should never use substrate.
- Thread starter RyU
- Start date
How often do you change the substrate? Don't the springtails get out?
I use substrate in all of my enclosures. It keeps the plants, isopods and springtails alive. My chams do pretty good too.
Me too!
Too much taboo regards substrate, not only for chams but other reps too imo. Impaction is usually the result of poor husbandry as much as the substrate itself. Although some substrates i wouldn't use for any reps, ie beech chips & orchid bark, certain sands etc (though my dart frogs do ok, with both mixed with soil/leaf litter.)
sanitysake
New Member
Currently I don't have substrate (one time I used artificial moss and that molded up - poor choice, i feel bad about it but I'm glad i cleaned it out). But now I've really been considering eco earth or exo terra plantation soil for the bottom of my Zilla screen cage (it's 30x30x18) since water pools there and I have not decided on a feasible drainage option....and am wondering if I use soil/earth on the bottom, how often i should change it out (RyU asked this earlier)? I am not terribly worried about impaction since I noticed that my cham does not venture anywhere near the bottom of the cage. It has tons of live plants in it that are potted and they sit on dishes.
I have used both of those exo terra products, mixed with some normal soil/leaf mould i collect from a local forest. They are both ok, but now i just use the soil/leaf litter i collect from the forest, as it's free & works better as a bio active substrate. Also comes with free clean up crew... But watch out for slugs/snails or their eggs.
As for when to change the substrate. In a word, Never! The whole idea is to get it set up so that the clean up crew, multiply & so recycle any waste, i.e poo or any mould/rotting veg & animal matter (dead crickets, roaches etc). Then as Mike said, no need to clean the tank, the bugs do it all for you.
I have used both of those exo terra products, mixed with some normal soil/leaf mould i collect from a local forest. They are both ok, but now i just use the soil/leaf litter i collect from the forest, as it's free & works better as a bio active substrate. Also comes with free clean up crew... But watch out for slugs/snails or their eggs.
As for when to change the substrate. In a word, Never! The whole idea is to get it set up so that the clean up crew, multiply & so recycle any waste, i.e poo or any mould/rotting veg & animal matter (dead crickets, roaches etc). Then as Mike said, no need to clean the tank, the bugs do it all for you.
Yes, but will this work in a screen cage?, do we need to put a tray x deep and fill it with substrate?, wont the little critters get out?
Sana
Mike Fisher
Established Member
I never change it, I just freshen it up when the plants need divided. The plants will outgrow the enclosures about twice a year, so I divide them and freshen up the substrate. No the springtails won't leave their perfect environment unless it dries out too much. Here's a photo of my setup:
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RyU
New Member
I never change it, I just freshen it up when the plants need divided. The plants will outgrow the enclosures about twice a year, so I divide them and freshen up the substrate. No the springtails won't leave their perfect environment unless it dries out too much. Here's a photo of my setup:
I may consider trying for one of my glass enclosures but I'm still scared for the babies....
It must work wonders for humidity issues too.... 50/50 sand and peat moss you say?
Funny as I started this thread to warn others about not using substrate and here I am considering it.... LOL. Although I was speaking about larger substrate, and I stick by that.
We have no choice but to provide a substrate in the laying bin for the chameleon's. I have used one particular washed playsand for many years because it has never impacted a female.
The "problem" with substrates is that (apart from the apparently no-nos like barks) we don't know which ones will cause an issue until it's too late...so IMHO it's up to the owner to decide if he/she wants to risk it and use substrate in the cage or play it safe and not use it. Experience can/will be the teacher.
The "problem" with substrates is that (apart from the apparently no-nos like barks) we don't know which ones will cause an issue until it's too late...so IMHO it's up to the owner to decide if he/she wants to risk it and use substrate in the cage or play it safe and not use it. Experience can/will be the teacher.
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RyU
New Member
I never change it, I just freshen it up when the plants need divided. The plants will outgrow the enclosures about twice a year, so I divide them and freshen up the substrate. No the springtails won't leave their perfect environment unless it dries out too much. Here's a photo of my setup:
BTW, that is an awesome setup Mike. I only wish my wife would let me have something like that. Only can only hope.
RyU
New Member
I just get scared with my chams. Especially when babies die, you always wonder what you could have done to prevent it...
Mike Fisher
Established Member
RyU
New Member
RyU
New Member
Great! I'll have a look now!
Mike Fisher
Established Member
I'll try it for the new setup I have. If anything goes wrong, I'M COMIN FOR YA!
Breeders in Europe have been keeping chameleons on substrate for decades and they lead the US keepers in the sheer variety of species they breed. In the USA we breed veileds and panthers and little else so that is where the bulk of our expertise lies, within the narrow constraints of those two species. Then USA keepers come up with "rules" based on that experience that get repeated like mantras.
Would I keep a veiled or panther in the same setup that I use for my montanes? No. Yet the keepers of those two species regularly give advice on how to set up montane habitats that are detrimental to the well being of that species. I have been judged rather harshly for many years for using substrates by those who have never kept the species that I'm working with.
Anyway, not venting on you, just pointing out some observations. In the end you'll have to decide for yourself if it is something you want to try, but it works for me. Good luck!
I will throw out an experience for what it is worth.
I keep chameleons outdoors almost year round. Every outdoor cage has a substrate floor. This is required for humidity and temperature gradients. I have been doing it this way for over two decades. No impaction issues. I have not had to dig rocks and dirt out of a stomach during any necropsy.
It may be easier for beginners to avoid substrates, but the word "never" is used way too freely when describing substrates. The topic is not as black and white as it is usually portrayed.
Bill
I keep chameleons outdoors almost year round. Every outdoor cage has a substrate floor. This is required for humidity and temperature gradients. I have been doing it this way for over two decades. No impaction issues. I have not had to dig rocks and dirt out of a stomach during any necropsy.
It may be easier for beginners to avoid substrates, but the word "never" is used way too freely when describing substrates. The topic is not as black and white as it is usually portrayed.
Bill
Mike Fisher
Established Member
It is Japanese Knotweed. A highly invasive weed that goes crazy in enclosures. it does die back in winter, so I have to use fill in plants for that time of year. I use primarily bamboo, pothos, Japanese knotweed, several types of ferns and small palms.
Japanese knotweed is so invasive that in most states it is illegal to intentionally propagate. I don't believe that our indoor use of it would be a problem though. Just don't be careless with the shoots or root stock outside or you'll never get rid of it. It is very pretty in enclosures. The stalks are bamboo like and the leaves are large and heart shaped and hold water droplets very well.
Chris Anderson
Dr. House of Chameleons
I think the above three posts do a great job of summarizing my view on using substrate in chameleon enclosures. The mantra about substrate use is very similar to the one about having to keep chameleons in all screen enclosures and that glass is bad. These rules are very broad strokes that simply do not account for any variation between species, the immediate environment of the enclosure, or the particular husbandry capabilities/circumstances for each keeper. While they may make things simpler for the average beginner keeper working with a panther or veiled, there are many situations where I would say these rules are wrong more often than not.
For what its worth, I now exclusively use fully planted glass terrariums with substrate, and I've not had an impaction, URI or fungal skin infection issue since I started. These setups require variation in some of the other recommended husbandry patterns, but for the species I work with, the environment I am in, and the constraints I have on my setup and time, I believe these setups are far superior to a "typical" chameleon setup.
Now, that said, there are a number of substrates I would caution against using. I generally would not use a substrate with woody (bark, wood chips, etc.) or fibrous (non-ground coco-fiber, etc.) material, or one with artificial additives (perlite, vermiculite, etc.). A fine, nonabrasive substrate such as a fine organic soil, however, works great.
Chris
