The I have had success with the "chameleon in aquarium keeping" method

[eisentrauti]

Hello folks,

after several threads and discussions I am still waiting for the proove that aquariums are good enclosures for chameleons or let's say as good as normal ones with much more ventilation. So here's the chance for everybody who keeps or has keeped chameleons for long periods (over 10 months) or breed them in multiple generations in aquariums (clutches of fresh imported Rhampholeons don't count).
Till now, I only know of the success July had with this method. I hope the other supporters of this method can destroy my "dogmatic" point of view.
Why I ask this provoking way ? Many people regard this method as good as others with much more air movement. But from what I know all the cases where chameleons were breed in multiple generations it was done with proper ventilation

Benny

 

[sandrachameleon]

So here's the chance for everybody who keeps or has keeped chameleons for long periods (over 10 months) [...]But from what I know all the cases where chameleons were breed in multiple generations it was done with proper ventilation

Hi Benny
Just wanted to say I dont think 10 months is a long period. You can keep a chameleon alive (but not well) for two years in terrible conditions. A better standard might be over 4 years (for a veiled or panther).

And your bias is showing, when you say "proper ventilation" as if suggesting glass enclosures do not or can not have that.

and a point of clarification - do you only want to hear about success in "fish" tanks, or any type of glass enclosure, or any type of solid-sided enclosure?

s

 

[eisentrauti]

Of course they can live that long but let's face the truth, the average WC or CB chameleon doesn't live much more than a year.
Glass terrariums can have a proper ventilation, check out the ones at this webside: http://www.chamterra.de/Frameset_home.html. There's a similar one in the US but I can't remember the name at the moment.
And yes, I want to hear of examples with fish tanks, cause it's a huge difference between an exoterra terrarium and an aquarium

 

[jackscham]

"The average WC or CB chameleon doesn't live much more than a year" ?? If kept properly, they should live much longer.
As for the glass aquarium issue, I recently had 'a bit of a disagreement' with a local exotic pet store owner. She insisted that chams SHOULD be kept in glass aquariums- even with all kinds of literature stating otherwise. Her argument was that its impossible to maintain proper humidity levels in mesh type enclosures-to which i disagreed! All her chams are in glass aquariums ( but to be honest, they seem to be quite healthy) The aquariums are cleaned weekly and do not contain substrate, just newspaper--which is good. I think that it is possible to successfully keep certain chameleons in glass aquariums BUT it would be alot more labour intensive. The enclosure would have to be cleaned more frequently and excess water would have to be continuously removed -- I really do think mesh enclosures are much more chameleon and user friendly.

 

[kinyonga]

You said..."the average WC or CB chameleon doesn't live much more than a year"...strange. I've kept WC C. chamaeleons, panthers, comoro islands, merumontanas, Parson's, Fischer's (multis and vosseleri), etc. for longer than a year many times.

Although, if you do a search on this forum you will find that I have talked about this many times, I will post the information again.........

I started keeping chameleons over 25 years ago. In the beginning I kept them in glass aquariums and in wooden cages with a small ventilation area in the ends and the lid and sliding glass doors, etc. I always placed the basking light to one end to create a chimney affect and ran the UVB light along the length of the cage.

The WC C. chamaleons that I had lived for over 4 years in them. Most of the babies I kept from the eggs I hatched from those adults (99% hatch rate) lived to be 5 or 6 years old in those cages.

I kept my first veileds in those cages and the same lines continued from my original 2.2 until last year when I let it run out. I always kept females and added in unrelated males obtained from other people to continue producing. Those first 4 lived to be over 4 years of age (don't forget that I was just starting out back then and I still didn't have my hubandry the way I do now). The offspring from them lived for various lengths of time from 4 years up. Eventually the females lived to be 6 or 7+ and the males even old. I switched a few years ago to glass cages with screen lids and fronts but found that it was too hard to keep the heat and humidity levels at what I wanted (I live in Ontario BTW...cold and very dry in the winter) so I switched to the exo-terras about 4 years ago.

I kept more than just veileds and C. chamaeleons in the glass cages too BTW. I just used those as examples.

 

[Texas Panther Man]

Since you live in Canada thats why the local store owner uses that method to keep her chams. It can be much easier up north to keep chams in solid sided or semi solid sided enclosures. ( ie glass or screen glass combo) Since the weather up there is so cold and dry it would be much easier to control humidity and temps in a solid sided cage. Especially during the cold dry winters you guys get. BUT as you stated controling all the waste water and getting it out of the cage would be very labor intensive. Not practical if you have a large collection being housed that way. So in effect both of you were correct in your beliefs. I prefer screen cages myself though. (esp since I live in Texas)

 

[kinyonga]

The water is not an issue if you have a small hole drilled in the glass bottom of the cage. Besides, you don't have to water so extensively if the humidity in the cage is higher.

I don't see why you would have to change/clean the cage any more often with a glass one than a mesh one. I use no substate, so all I have to do is pick up the poop off the floor of the cage regularly and clean the cage out like people with mesh cages would do.

 

[ndugan7]

here are some good forums i bookmarked when i was looking to move my xantho to a cage that would hold humidity better...living in new england it is hard to get the constant higher humidity montanes need!

https://www.chameleonforums.com/everyone-who-knows-you-cant-keep-chameleons-glass-31937/

and these glass cages look amazing and capable of putting some stereotypes to bed...

https://www.chameleonforums.com/new-custom-terrariums-protean-terrariums-36915/

 

[eisentrauti]

Sorry to say Lynda but I don't know your hole personal chameleon history, you didn't narrate it in a thread which we both wrote something. Great to hear that you have had this results with those enclosures. Since I live in a similar climate zone I know of the problems of low humidity in the winter. But it's a huge difference between ventilation holes and a spot which create the chimney effect and a normal aquarium or a plastic tank.
About the "average chameleon" lives not even a year. Maybe the adjective "ordinary" describes my thought better. Of course they can live longer and they do in many cases. But the majority of the chameleons in captivity dies in no time. Just take a look at the import numbers and the produced offspring of those animals. It's not a nice fact but its reality.
@TexasPantherMan: Like I said before I knew the problems of the dry air and the need of often mistings. So I use currently enclosure which have a bottom part consisting of a plastic box, 30cm/1" high and on the top of this a full screen enclosure with plenty of plants. It's very easy to drill a hole in the plastic box and with silicon a drain-tube can be installed. So there's no standing water in the enclosure. Together with a misting system you can create this way a very easy and unproblematic working enclosure system

 

[facelesdoll]

i suggest using some sort of hardware plastic and hanging it from the ceiling to floor around your project area's for animals, a small space heater, air purifier, homemade 30-40$ misting machine(heated), small fan, and a pot with moist paper towels on the space heater. this is perfect for cold regional cham keeping! poke a dinky hole in the plastic to check out your humidity levels via digital humidity and thermometer guage. fan 10$, purifier/humidifier 20$, misting system 40$, space heater? not to much. the homemade misting system is cheap easy to do and for pennies you can keep adding penny for penny how many cages you want to mist! small pump, pvc, 360 sprayers, reservoir, and your basically done!

 

[Texas Panther Man]

The water is not an issue if you have a small hole drilled in the glass bottom of the cage. Besides, you don't have to water so extensively if the humidity in the cage is higher.

I don't see why you would have to change/clean the cage any more often with a glass one than a mesh one. I use no substate, so all I have to do is pick up the poop off the floor of the cage regularly and clean the cage out like people with mesh cages would do.

Not trying to argue but I disagree. Its more work to keep glass clean than a standard screen cage. Ive had fishtanks and terrariums. And to keep the glass clean and attractive for viewing and sanitary is more up keep than simply hoseing down a screen cage for periodic cleaning. Jm .02

 

[kinyonga]

You said.."But it's a huge difference between ventilation holes and a spot which create the chimney effect and a normal aquarium or a plastic tank"...mind explaining this a little further, please?

(BTW...90%+ of the cages I used in the beginning were glass aquariums. I only tried the odd wood one...and only used plastic ones for very young babies so the crickets wouldn't escape.)

I realize that many WC chameleons don't make it for very long (and some of the ones I had in the beginning didn't either)...but its not just the fact that they were kept in glass aquariums that was the reason. Many of them were in bad condition by the time they reached the person who bought them. Many of the people who bought them had no idea how to keep a chameleon (myself included, when I bought my first one...the first couple were "lucky" that I happened to give them some of what they needed) and didn't the supplements, cage requirements, etc. and didn't know enough to know when something was wrong. Even if they took the chameleon to a vet back then, they'd be lucky to find a vet who knew what to do. (The first vet I took a chameleon to wouldn't even touch it!)

With CB ones it depended partly on how much the one producing/raising the babies knew and passed on to the buyer. Again, some people buy them who have either been given poor information or have not not read anything before they get one. Some of these people also don't know when the chameleon needs a vet. Its still unreal how many of the CB ones don't make it for more than a couple of years.

Then, look at how many female chameleons die from reproduction issues....MBD...you'd think by now we could at least do better in these two areas.

 

[Texas Panther Man]

Im not saying you cant be productive and successful raising chams in semi solid or solid sided cages. Im just saying if your using glass or plexi as the material it has to be cleaned and cleaning glass is and can be a pita. esp if your running a misting system and the glass gets sprayed and eventually water spots build up. I just cant take looking thru water spots when viewing my animals it drives me nuts. lol

 

[Carlton]

When I think about this sort of classic debate/discussion I try to remind myself of one thing:

An observant, experienced cham keeper could probably keep a cham in almost any type of enclosure with enough daily monitoring, proper instrumentation, and working knowledge of cham health and signs of trouble.

A newbie who "hopes" to keep a new cham in that fish tank stacked in the garage is most likely going to fail, not because glass tanks CAN'T be used, but because they don't know how to set up and monitor the conditons or know the signs that their cham is not thriving.

Those of us who have had the chance to experiment around with screen cages, part screen cages, solid sided cages, glass, wood, whatever, may have settled on what works best in our particular house situations. And, we also have preferences based on appearance, ease of use, or simply what type of habitat we like.

I know I don't particularly like plain glass tank setups because I don't like watching some less adaptable chams paw at the glass endlessly, don't like cleaning the water spots off them, and want much larger spaces than are usually available (the smallest cage I've ever used was 3'x4'x4'). I like screen cages but usually modify them for humidity based on where I am living at the time.

When a newbie asks me what type of cage to use my usual answer is "tell me all about where you'll be keeping the cham first". For most of these folks I'll probably suggest a screen cage and modify it from there.

 

[kinyonga]

Carlton said..."An observant, experienced cham keeper could probably keep a cham in almost any type of enclosure with enough daily monitoring, proper instrumentation, and working knowledge of cham health and signs of trouble.

A newbie who "hopes" to keep a new cham in that fish tank stacked in the garage is most likely going to fail, not because glass tanks CAN'T be used, but because they don't know how to set up and monitor the conditons or know the signs that their cham is not thriving.

Those of us who have had the chance to experiment around with screen cages, part screen cages, solid sided cages, glass, wood, whatever, may have settled on what works best in our particular house situations. And, we also have preferences based on appearance, ease of use, or simply what type of habitat we like."...well said Carlton!

Carlton said..."When a newbie asks me what type of cage to use my usual answer is "tell me all about where you'll be keeping the cham first"."...this is a good approach for sure!

I answered the way I did because Benny said..."after several threads and discussions I am still waiting for the proove that aquariums are good enclosures for chameleons or let's say as good as normal ones with much more ventilation. So here's the chance for everybody who keeps or has keeped chameleons for long periods (over 10 months) or breed them in multiple generations in aquariums" and "from what I know all the cases where chameleons were breed in multiple generations it was done with proper ventilation".

 

[Gensen]

I agree & what scares me....

When I think about this sort of classic debate/discussion I try to remind myself of one thing:

An observant, experienced cham keeper could probably keep a cham in almost any type of enclosure with enough daily monitoring, proper instrumentation, and working knowledge of cham health and signs of trouble.

A newbie who "hopes" to keep a new cham in that fish tank stacked in the garage is most likely going to fail, not because glass tanks CAN'T be used, but because they don't know how to set up and monitor the conditons or know the signs that their cham is not thriving.

Those of us who have had the chance to experiment around with screen cages, part screen cages, solid sided cages, glass, wood, whatever, may have settled on what works best in our particular house situations. And, we also have preferences based on appearance, ease of use, or simply what type of habitat we like.

I know I don't particularly like plain glass tank setups because I don't like watching some less adaptable chams paw at the glass endlessly, don't like cleaning the water spots off them, and want much larger spaces than are usually available (the smallest cage I've ever used was 3'x4'x4'). I like screen cages but usually modify them for humidity based on where I am living at the time.

When a newbie asks me what type of cage to use my usual answer is "tell me all about where you'll be keeping the cham first". For most of these folks I'll probably suggest a screen cage and modify it from there.

I agree, what really scares me about this thread is how many newbies we do see who have been advised (badly) by "Petstore Folks" to use glass aquariums and then they are on here with sick Chams and issues after a short period... I think if a thread like this is to be run it should be very obviously noted that this is by no means meant to suggest to a newbie to do so, and that sceeen enclosures are still the "recommend" set up to begin with if you wish to do your best as a newbie keeping a healthy Cham. This could be confusing to newbies here...

 

[Carlton]

I agree, what really scares me about this thread is how many newbies we do see who have been advised (badly) by "Petstore Folks" to use glass aquariums and then they are on here with sick Chams and issues after a short period... I think if a thread like this is to be run it should be very obviously noted that this is by no means meant to suggest to a newbie to do so, and that sceeen enclosures are still the "recommend" set up to begin with if you wish to do your best as a newbie keeping a healthy Cham. This could be confusing to newbies here...

I know...its one of those eternal topics I am hesitant to keep bringing up because of those newbies who can't or won't filter out recommendations from member debate. Sure, I am always ready for a good discussion but again that's one reason most of us will default to the "screen enclosure" basic if in doubt. However, if we keep using the good sticky threads and the basic cham husbandry links and make sure they are accurate we can always refer newbies to them. I just wish it wasn't once their poor cham is already sick.

 

[sandrachameleon]

Im not saying you cant be productive and successful raising chams in semi solid or solid sided cages. Im just saying if your using glass or plexi as the material it has to be cleaned and cleaning glass is and can be a pita. esp if your running a misting system and the glass gets sprayed and eventually water spots build up. I just cant take looking thru water spots when viewing my animals it drives me nuts. lol

Mesh screen, wood or glass, they ALL have to been cleaned now and then.

Glass only gets spots if you have hard water. And its easy to clean glass with vinegar, which you could use as a "green" and effective cleaner on most surfaces (mesh included)

 

[sandrachameleon]

An observant, experienced cham keeper could probably keep a cham in almost any type of enclosure with enough daily monitoring, proper instrumentation, and working knowledge of cham health and signs of trouble.

Agreed

A newbie who "hopes" to keep a new cham in that fish tank stacked in the garage is most likely going to fail, not because glass tanks CAN'T be used, but because they don't know how to set up and monitor the conditons or know the signs that their cham is not thriving.

Same could be said for screen enclosures of course. Screen would be a near-death sentence in some newbie situations too.

I know I don't particularly like plain glass tank setups because I don't like watching some less adaptable chams paw at the glass endlessly,

In all my years, I've never had one paw at the plexi I use for doors. Ever. Have you actually seen this happen (and are you sure it had to do with the glass, and not some other issue)

When a newbie asks me what type of cage to use my usual answer is "tell me all about where you'll be keeping the cham first".

EXCELLENT way to go about it.

One should never assume screen, or glass, or wood, or a combo or free-range or anything else is the "right" way

 

[sandrachameleon]

...and that sceeen enclosures are still the "recommend" set up to begin with if you wish to do your best as a newbie keeping a healthy Cham.

Except screen cages are NOT always the best idea, for newbis or otherwise. There ARE situations where recommending screen would be incorrect advise.