The High Prices of The New Madagascar Quotas Chameleon Species?

[leedragon]

I am glad of the high prices, I dubt people will pay a 1000 and later neglected the animal, it is so,ething that encorege people in general it is money, and is hard for me to see that they would throw money away by getting the animal and then not trying their best, besides.

 

[Motherlode Chameleon]

They are pros and cons to the high prices. No matter the given opinions what is a fact is the prices are not sustainable.

Very few people will spend more than a $1000 on an animal that can die very quickly or for no known reason. I'm not going into examples, the benefit of having a chat with so many other experienced cham keepers here is we've all been there.

My #1 issue is simple, I won't pay $1000+ for a chameleon sight unseen. If I'm going to purchase an animal that can die overnight despite my experience in keeping chams over decades, I'm going to visually inspect it to the best of my ability before handing over a what is to me a big chunk of money.

Having money doesn't mean a person will take better care of a given animal. I personally used Dr. Greek for my animals. His prices are fair. I trust him. I've taken my male Quad to him since March when we found he had that damn bone infection common in Montane species. Is he still alive ( going on 9 months with a bone infection and thriving ) just due to him seeing Dr. Greek? No. It's a combination of a vet who knows his stuff with Chameleons and a keeper with decades of experience in keeping, nurturing, and understanding the needs of these critters. Having money doesn't mean a person is going to buy the best equipment, or even buy the right combination of equipment, or even buy the right dietary supplements, or if they did.... will they use them correctly or overdose their expensive lizard?

Now on the positive side, the higher prices discourage the brand new keeper from buying one on a whim. I personally used to discourage or "steer" new reptile keepers away from the more delicate species over my years in the industry. I know that is not the norm. Many people make an "impulse buy" and a Parson Chameleon is a mighty impressive animal to behold to a new keeper who has never seen one. That fact contributed to many Parson's dying. I used to bring my huge male to the pet store I ran, more so I could have him nearby. He got personal attention from his owner daily that way. However I can't even count how many people wanted to buy him after seeing him, people who had never owned a chameleon before. He contributed to many panther or Jackson chameleons getting sold however.

So, the prices are in themselves useful to helping "throttle" the animals en mass going to the public which would result in many dying if it would be anything like I remember back in the 80's and 90's.

On the other hand the prices are not sustainable.

For some bright spots to point out... Unlike back in the 80's and 90's when the internet did not exist (yes children, there was a time when the internet did not exist. Back then the T-rex was king) we now have a place like this forum where experienced hobbyists and newer keepers mingle and can share info. We also have vets who are able to specialize with reptiles. We also have a huge amount of reptile related products (I still make my own odd inventions however). We even have a much better understanding of their dietary needs and supplements. I still remember using patio misters or paying my dad to spray down my animals........ now we have the Mist King.

Will I be getting back into Parsons? Yes. Will I be paying thousands of dollars for an animal just imported that I have not had the chance to see up close? Hell no. I'd rather pay for a CBB and make sure a hobbyist gets my $$$.The prices will have to come way down before I'll buy animals sight unseen from people I've never met or had lunch with. So ask yourselves how long will prices stay high if experienced keepers like me won't open our wallets under these circumstances. I just got in on the Quad shipment to add some new blood to my project but I'm told the shipment is pretty beat up looking. I'll see them tomorrow with my own eyes. But at least for a few hundred dollars I'll take a chance to enhance my breeding project. I won't take the same chances on something as expensive as an imported Parsons.

My bucket list is short, hatching one clutch of Parsons is near the top of that list.

I would not buy a wild caught chameleons unseen at those prices either. I stated earlier that with the internet and these high prices pictures of the chameleons sent through email can be a useful tool to choose what chameleon you are going to buy. They should be made available before by the retail seller or even exporters before you ever look at the chameleon in person. That is how I picked out my female Parsonii this holiday season and with the high prices would not consider buying a chameleon at high prices let alone a Parsonii without pictures sent through the email.

What wholesale lists are you looking at?

I was not talking wholesale. I was speaking retail. Just a look at Kingsnake in the last 5 years there has been Troceros johnstonii, Kinyongia xenorhinia, and Furcifer pardalis (Nosy Faly and Mitsio) pairs I have seen going from the $500-$1200 price range.

Best Regards
Jeremy A. Rich

 

[Motherlode Chameleon]

The retailers I have talked to have stated that the export prices from Madagascar for these new chameleon species is extremely high. This meaning these prices are not just high on the retail end they are high on the export and wholesale end too. However wild caught chameleons are wild caught chameleons. If they are going to be sold at high prices the chameleons have got to be imported in top condition.

Best Regards
Jeremy A. Rich

 

[OldChamKeeper]

Jeremy while yes pictures over the internet are useful I hate to pop the bubble and break it to you that many many sellers are taking a stance of "not having the time to take pictures", or "this picture may not be the animal represented in the ad", or in some cases flat out fraudulent photos.

When dealing with large amounts of money we see the real scammers come out.

I was unable to pick up my Quad today so I'm still going off what I've been told but the shipment was pretty beat up, I point this out because we in the hobby have seen time and time again that while yes the importer wants to make the $$$$$$ that doesn't translate into solid animals. Doing the "right" thing would have been not selling animals beat up or in poor condition for top dollar sight unseen.

Now if these same people spent serious money on importing these very expensive animals they are going to sell the good and bad ones. I've seen it that way for decades. So them showing me a picture of an animal means nothing unless they are willing to state the picture is of the actual animal I'm getting. It's about making money, not about doing what's right.

Also how many of you check the gums of your animals before you buy one? I mean actually open the mouth and take a peek? I do. I've caught many a sick animal before bringing it home by doing that simple thing. When it comes to over a $1000+ on one animal... I'm going to check everything.

 

[Motherlode Chameleon]

Jeremy while yes pictures over the internet are useful I hate to pop the bubble and break it to you that many many sellers are taking a stance of "not having the time to take pictures", or "this picture may not be the animal represented in the ad", or in some cases flat out fraudulent photos.

When dealing with large amounts of money we see the real scammers come out.

I was unable to pick up my Quad today so I'm still going off what I've been told but the shipment was pretty beat up, I point this out because we in the hobby have seen time and time again that while yes the importer wants to make the $$$$$$ that doesn't translate into solid animals. Doing the "right" thing would have been not selling animals beat up or in poor condition for top dollar sight unseen.

Now if these same people spent serious money on importing these very expensive animals they are going to sell the good and bad ones. I've seen it that way for decades. So them showing me a picture of an animal means nothing unless they are willing to state the picture is of the actual animal I'm getting. It's about making money, not about doing what's right.

Also how many of you check the gums of your animals before you buy one? I mean actually open the mouth and take a peek? I do. I've caught many a sick animal before bringing it home by doing that simple thing. When it comes to over a $1000+ on one animal... I'm going to check everything.

Ralph

I understand your concerns and your not bursting my bubble. These are all worthy topics than should be heard. I am just stating that especially when pairs of chameleons are costing over $1000.00 I would not have the confidence in a seller to sell me any chameleon if they would not take the time to email me pictures of all the chameleons being offered for sale if or before I buy a chameleons from that retailer. If they cannot provide pictures from the start they seem to me as just trying to hustle business and I would stay away from them. I would even build relationships and ask for them to look inside their mouth for me for signs of mouth rot. John Uhern from Reptile Specialties and Ward from Wards World of Reptile Propagation were great about taking similar care of there clients/customers in the past. Why not now? With conservative quotas/ and higher prices I have got my fingers crossed that these wild caught chameleons are going to arrive much more taken care of to a higher standards than compared to the problem of arriving in terrible shape before the 1995 ban. Wild caught is wild caught however I would not consent to buying blind and if you cannot pick the chameleon out in person or I would request pictures/photos of the chameleons that you are considering buying.

Best Regards
Jeremy A. Rich

 

[fluxlizard]

High prices encourage captive breeding and good treatment of animals by breeders.

It costs money to properly house, feed, light, water, supplement, and takes a time investment for proper care as well. My personal feeling is that this is much more likely to happen when the investment for the lizards is higher, and the reward involved for breeding is higher.

Which is likely to have better housing and receive more attention and better care today- parsons or calyptratus? That's my thought.

But the other thing that comes to mind when talking price is that lizard fans are a little spoiled when it comes to pricing. No lizard that I am aware of comes close to the higher priced snakes that are out there. And sometimes very rare lizards are very cheap compared to fairly common species of snake that have an odd genetic trait or developed characteristic. For example, there are very few shinisaurus in wild populations- a few years ago before some limited additional populations were discovered they were thought to be only several hundred left. Yet you can buy cb babies for $600. On the other hand, there have been times when some morphs of ball python went for more than $70,000 per snake, and this is not a rare species and is commonly bred...

 

[Norcal55]

The market determines the price. As long as people are willing to pay high prices as soon as they hit the US soil, that's where they will stay. At the point these sit at the importers unsold and mortality sets in, prices will come down.

This is the reality. On one hand I do like the prices higher which will prevent just anyone from deciding they want the new cool import but this also does not make it more likely they will wind up with experienced keepers.
These prices look on par with CBB animals here in the States or imported CBB animals (at least the ones I am interested in).

As many have stated the risk vs. reward on purchasing a WC import is just not worth it for me at the current prices.

Another side note that drives me bonkers is that when these animals come in for the most part they are listed for sale & flipped right back out in a matter of days. Oh you will hear "they are eating and hydrating great"!

With that being said I am excited to see several of the new animals here and without a doubt a few will become part of successful breeding programs

Happy Holidays!

 

[Motherlode Chameleon]

This is the reality. On one hand I do like the prices higher which will prevent just anyone from deciding they want the new cool import but this also does not make it more likely they will wind up with experienced keepers.
Happy Holidays!

I would say the high prices coupled with that these chameleons have specific husbandry requirements such as a required winter period as well documented with Calumma parsonii parsonii and some of the other Eastern Madagascar species. These advanced husbandry conditions plus high prices when choosing these species when deciding to buy these chameleons is most probably going to keep these chameleons in experience keepers hands most of the time ideally.

Happy Holidays!!

Best Regards
Jeremy A. Rich

 

[Montium]

High prices encourage captive breeding and good treatment of animals by breeders.

It costs money to properly house, feed, light, water, supplement, and takes a time investment for proper care as well. My personal feeling is that this is much more likely to happen when the investment for the lizards is higher, and the reward involved for breeding is higher.

Which is likely to have better housing and receive more attention and better care today- parsons or calyptratus? That's my thought.

But the other thing that comes to mind when talking price is that lizard fans are a little spoiled when it comes to pricing. No lizard that I am aware of comes close to the higher priced snakes that are out there. And sometimes very rare lizards are very cheap compared to fairly common species of snake that have an odd genetic trait or developed characteristic. For example, there are very few shinisaurus in wild populations- a few years ago before some limited additional populations were discovered they were thought to be only several hundred left. Yet you can buy cb babies for $600. On the other hand, there have been times when some morphs of ball python went for more than $70,000 per snake, and this is not a rare species and is commonly bred...

I couldn't agree more. I am fortunate that i can go examine my purchases in person. I have spent quite a few dollars to develop my group of Parsons. Not all are imports but all are doing well and will get at least a year of eating and getting used to their new life before I consider breeding the ones that are of age. I am not breeding them to make money, I am breeding them or going to be breeding them because they are amazing and I think they should be produced in better numbers in this country.

The same goes for the other chams I have. I have watched snakes and turtles sell for crazy money and most of them I wouldn't have taken a second look at. Not that I don't like or keep them, I just didn't buy into the hype. Chameleons are heartbreaking and breathtaking at the same time. Depending on what exporter sends them and what customs does with them when they get here really determines what you get as an import.

All of the ones I have picked up have had good fat and hydration. I saw a recent shipment from a bad exporter that did indeed cost the life of a Parsons, it looked like a shipment that had been sat on for some time before it was shipped.

My guess is the quotas will shrink at some point and for me waiting on a price drop isn't something I want to do. I have still spent less than folks with an albino____ that's the latest and greatest. Hell people sell albino green iguanas for more than these lizards are commanding now. So I doubt with a global quota of 300 that Parsons are going to drop quickly, some of the smaller calumma, yeah they will probably drop in a year or less.

So folks can stay away with hopes that the prices drop, more for me

 

[Montium]

This is the reality. On one hand I do like the prices higher which will prevent just anyone from deciding they want the new cool import but this also does not make it more likely they will wind up with experienced keepers.
These prices look on par with CBB animals here in the States or imported CBB animals (at least the ones I am interested in).

As many have stated the risk vs. reward on purchasing a WC import is just not worth it for me at the current prices.

Another side note that drives me bonkers is that when these animals come in for the most part they are listed for sale & flipped right back out in a matter of days. Oh you will hear "they are eating and hydrating great"!

With that being said I am excited to see several of the new animals here and without a doubt a few will become part of successful breeding programs

Happy Holidays!

Very true and that's part of the reason, for me, not to wait on them. My male Yellow Lip ate while sitting on my arm when I went to pick him up. I guess that's more reason to go see them in person. I just figure the sooner they get under my misters and drips the better off they are going to be.

I hope to work with the other Parsons keepers to hopefully spread the bloodlines around.

 

[Norcal55]

I couldn't agree more. I am fortunate that i can go examine my purchases in person. I have spent quite a few dollars to develop my group of Parsons. Not all are imports but all are doing well and will get at least a year of eating and getting used to their new life before I consider breeding the ones that are of age. I am not breeding them to make money, I am breeding them or going to be breeding them because they are amazing and I think they should be produced in better numbers in this country.

The same goes for the other chams I have. I have watched snakes and turtles sell for crazy money and most of them I wouldn't have taken a second look at. Not that I don't like or keep them, I just didn't buy into the hype. Chameleons are heartbreaking and breathtaking at the same time. Depending on what exporter sends them and what customs does with them when they get here really determines what you get as an import.

All of the ones I have picked up have had good fat and hydration. I saw a recent shipment from a bad exporter that did indeed cost the life of a Parsons, it looked like a shipment that had been sat on for some time before it was shipped.

My guess is the quotas will shrink at some point and for me waiting on a price drop isn't something I want to do. I have still spent less than folks with an albino____ that's the latest and greatest. Hell people sell albino green iguanas for more than these lizards are commanding now. So I doubt with a global quota of 300 that Parsons are going to drop quickly, some of the smaller calumma, yeah they will probably drop in a year or less.

So folks can stay away with hopes that the prices drop, more for me

Awesome! Glad you have a group you are working with. Looking forward to progress pics and best of luck on breeding!

 

[laurie]

I don't know if the price will drop or not from the chams I chose to work with. They just came in wc and I got together with a couple friends and ordered 20 pair of quads. Are they somewhat beat up ? Yes they are. Are some smaller than I wanted/expected? Yes, but I am determined to get cbb quads in the US, hopefully in my life time. With a small group working with them, loaning for breeding, giving between the group, I honestly feel we may have the dedication and staying power to bring cbb into the market.

Or maybe this is just my pipe dream.

 

[Olimpia]

I don't know if the price will drop or not from the chams I chose to work with. They just came in wc and I got together with a couple friends and ordered 20 pair of quads. Are they somewhat beat up ? Yes they are. Are some smaller than I wanted/expected? Yes, but I am determined to get cbb quads in the US, hopefully in my life time. With a small group working with them, loaning for breeding, giving between the group, I honestly feel we may have the dedication and staying power to bring cbb into the market.

Or maybe this is just my pipe dream.

And that's how it's done, ladies and gentlemen! Wow, congrats Laurie and colleagues on the 20 pairs.

 

[Dooley1]

Laurie <3

 

[pantherchameleonpal]

Yes! Quads!

 

[Masked Gecko]

If WC prices are going up, would the price of CB go up as well?

 

[Chase]

If WC prices are going up, would the price of CB go up as well?

In theory, it's definitely a possibility. However, like said by others, I rather pay a little extra knowing it's a healthy captive produced animal rather than wild caught with the age unknown

Chase

 

[Masked Gecko]

In theory, it's definitely a possibility. However, like said by others, I rather pay a little extra knowing it's a healthy captive produced animal rather than wild caught with the age unknown

Chase

I understand on going with the better choice, Thanks.

 

[Motherlode Chameleon]

I don't know if the price will drop or not from the chams I chose to work with. They just came in wc and I got together with a couple friends and ordered 20 pair of quads. Are they somewhat beat up ? Yes they are. Are some smaller than I wanted/expected? Yes, but I am determined to get cbb quads in the US, hopefully in my life time. With a small group working with them, loaning for breeding, giving between the group, I honestly feel we may have the dedication and staying power to bring cbb into the market.

Or maybe this is just my pipe dream.

Laurie

Great to hear you and your collaborative effort got a good majority of the Trioceros quadricornis import that was just imported to the USA. You had been looking for new wild caught Trioceros quadricornis for a while now. Your collaborative effort has produced babies in the past however with the size of the group you have now you are looking at the prospects of much larger breeding results. If all your new imports acclimate your going to have a good sized breeding program for Trioceros quadricornis. If you don't mind me asking how many keepers/breeders are all these Trioceros quadricornis going too? The pair are not just going to you Bill and Tylene? I am are already starting collaborating towards breeding groups for these new Madagascar species.

Best Regards
Jeremy A. Rich

 

[Motherlode Chameleon]

If keepers who locate and buy pairs of these Madagascar chameleons at bargain prices good for them, bargains happen. However, I expects after 19 years of not being imported, the price of these imports to be initially higher prices than what the final prices are going to be, especially when comparing these beginning prices of these first imports.

Best Regards
Jeremy A. Rich