Chameleopatrick
New Member
Anyone have a report LED's they can add?
The definitive lighting thread! Everything you really need to know
- Thread starter Chameleopatrick
- Start date
Mike Fisher
Established Member
Can you show us the study proves your claim? The Arcadia bulb/necessity part. I'd like to see it. Or is that just your opinion?
Chameleopatrick
New Member
It's just my opinion after 23 years of trial and error. I've personally tested and documented the information in this thread for people to benefit. Did you want to contribute to the thread in some sort of positive way?
Just because you got caught making **** up. Please....mike , please....
Cameron B
Established Member
Hey, Chameleopatrick,
Maybe I missed this earlier in the thread, but is there no need for a basking light in the setup you have? I assume there's a good gradient and enough heat coming off of that fixture that you don't need it?
I'm looking into this setup myself, so interested in what you have to say on it!
Maybe I missed this earlier in the thread, but is there no need for a basking light in the setup you have? I assume there's a good gradient and enough heat coming off of that fixture that you don't need it?
I'm looking into this setup myself, so interested in what you have to say on it!
Mike Fisher
Established Member
I cut and pasted your exact text to show you how it came across. You should be more careful with your tone.
yeah, I'm done.
Chameleopatrick
New Member
I'm not using a basking light with the T5ho tubes.
The basking area is approximately 90-92 degrees and the uv is at 140ish with a newer bulb 3-4" below the screen.
The temperature drops approximately 1 degree per inch, mid habitat it's 78-80, bottom is room temp at 72 in my 36"exoterra.
Instead of a hot spot, t5ho creates a hot zone, and the chams can maximize the uv exposure being so close.
This has worked very well for my carpet, serreta, and perreti habitats for the last couple years. The best part is that it uses only one power outlet for the whole thing.
The basking area is approximately 90-92 degrees and the uv is at 140ish with a newer bulb 3-4" below the screen.
The temperature drops approximately 1 degree per inch, mid habitat it's 78-80, bottom is room temp at 72 in my 36"exoterra.
Instead of a hot spot, t5ho creates a hot zone, and the chams can maximize the uv exposure being so close.
This has worked very well for my carpet, serreta, and perreti habitats for the last couple years. The best part is that it uses only one power outlet for the whole thing.
Originally Posted by Chameleopatrick
"If you are in a a climate that doesn't allow daily natural exposure, then these bulbs are a necessity."
I think Mike, what Patrick is saying is...
and correct me if I am wrong, Patrick...
is that in all his years as a herper,
he as never come across a better bulb.
And is strongly suggesting that folks use them.
*sigh*
I say the same thing....
but unfortunately--- some folks usually just dismiss it because I sell them.
What they don't realize is that I can use, sell and promote any bulb I choose...
And it so happens that I personally have never found a better bulb.. period. (Or reptiles products company that actually CARES more about reptiles for that matter!).
Side note:
Many do not know this but I have had reptiles and exotic animals since 1976.
Yep. I am old! LOL
And have been using , experimenting and testing UV Bulbs over many, many species of reptiles and amphibians since 1979.
That was when I first started using the old GE Time-a-tan Mercury vapor bulbs (that are "people" tanning bulbs FYI) over leopard and pancake tortoise to keep them alive and eating through the long Maine winters, until they could go outside in the summer !
That was all that was available back then-- that was it.
And those mixed with the use of full spectrum flo. Vita -lites were at the cutting edge!
And only a few forward thinking zoos and very very few people "in the know" back then were using and pioneering the correct lighting of captive reptiles at that time.
It was the Dark Ages for sure!
anyway, thats my 2 cents.
Cheers!
Todd
"If you are in a a climate that doesn't allow daily natural exposure, then these bulbs are a necessity."
I think Mike, what Patrick is saying is...
and correct me if I am wrong, Patrick...
is that in all his years as a herper,
he as never come across a better bulb.
And is strongly suggesting that folks use them.
*sigh*
I say the same thing....
but unfortunately--- some folks usually just dismiss it because I sell them.
What they don't realize is that I can use, sell and promote any bulb I choose...
And it so happens that I personally have never found a better bulb.. period. (Or reptiles products company that actually CARES more about reptiles for that matter!).
Side note:
Many do not know this but I have had reptiles and exotic animals since 1976.
Yep. I am old!
LOLAnd have been using , experimenting and testing UV Bulbs over many, many species of reptiles and amphibians since 1979.
That was when I first started using the old GE Time-a-tan Mercury vapor bulbs (that are "people" tanning bulbs FYI) over leopard and pancake tortoise to keep them alive and eating through the long Maine winters, until they could go outside in the summer !
That was all that was available back then-- that was it.
And those mixed with the use of full spectrum flo. Vita -lites were at the cutting edge!
And only a few forward thinking zoos and very very few people "in the know" back then were using and pioneering the correct lighting of captive reptiles at that time.
It was the Dark Ages for sure!
anyway, thats my 2 cents.
Cheers!
Todd
Chameleopatrick
New Member
Originally Posted by Chameleopatrick
"If you are in a a climate that doesn't allow daily natural exposure, then these bulbs are a necessity."
I think Mike, what Patrick is saying is...
and correct me if I am wrong, Patrick...
is that in all his years as a herper,
he as never come across a better bulb.
And is strongly suggesting that folks use them.
*sigh*
I say the same thing....
but unfortunately--- some folks usually just dismiss it because I sell them.
What they don't realize is that I can use, sell and promote any bulb I choose...
And it so happens that I personally have never found a better bulb.. period. (Or reptiles products company that actually CARES more about reptiles for that matter!).
Side note:
Many do not know this but I have had reptiles and exotic animals since 1976.
Yep. I am old!
And have been using , experimenting and testing UV Bulbs over many, many species of reptiles and amphibians since 1979.
That was when I first started using the old GE Time-a-tan Mercury vapor bulbs (that are "people" tanning bulbs FYI) over leopard and pancake tortoise to keep them alive and eating through the long Maine winters, until they could go outside in the summer !
That was all that was available back then-- that was it.
And those mixed with the use of full spectrum flo. Vita -lites were at the cutting edge!
And only a few forward thinking zoos and very very few people "in the know" back then were using and pioneering the correct lighting of captive reptiles at that time.
It was the Dark Ages for sure!
anyway, thats my 2 cents.
Cheers!
Todd
That's exactly right Todd. We're at a place in life where personal experience and education allows us to choose and know what's best. Fortunately I can afford to buy any lighting system I could want. After buying just about everything UV related in the marketplace I have settled on Arcadia bulbs for the UV aspect of lighting.
Best performance period.
For other lighting requirements such as for plants, I really see CREE LED becoming the new standard, even over T5HO or metal halide, in the very near future.
Last edited:
Hi Patrick,
Just to add....
I now and using a mix of Arcadia HO T5 for UV and Jungle Dawn® for added lumen "kick" on planted set ups and they have done great.
Cheers
Todd
Jungle Dawn® have Bridgelux diodes BTW.
Mike Fisher
Established Member
Originally Posted by Chameleopatrick
"If you are in a a climate that doesn't allow daily natural exposure, then these bulbs are a necessity."
I think Mike, what Patrick is saying is...
and correct me if I am wrong, Patrick...
is that in all his years as a herper,
he as never come across a better bulb.
And is strongly suggesting that folks use them.
I completely agree. You totally made my point. Experienced keepers often say things as documented fact because we have our own research and experience to rely on. We should not have to put "IMO" in front of everything, nor should we have to provide studies or documents to support our beliefs for every small nuance we post, otherwise we can call BS on just about everything here. It is not constructive for other keepers who use differing methods to call BS on our experiences when we don't have published studies to back them up.
And by the way, the passive/aggressive line I used in that post was not originally mine, see here: https://www.chameleonforums.com/first-enclosure-too-much-ideas-thoughts-improve-115299/index2.html
And to add to this thread in a constructive way, in the 30+ years I've been keeping and breeding reptiles, I've never used a UV bulb, nor have I ever had an animal suffer from MBD. And there are studies of captive reptiles kept in environments without access to UVB, that have bred several generations in captivity. When I first started breeding chameleons, I learned from a few very successful breeders in Europe, none of which were using UV bulbs.
One caveat to the above statement, I do formulate and mix all of my vitamin/mineral supplements to compensate for the lack of natural UVB. I am not saying that UVB is not important, I am saying that specialty bulbs are not "necessary" for animals housed indoors provided that adequate oral vitamin D is administered. "IMO" lol.
Mike Fisher
Established Member
Side note:
Many do not know this but I have had reptiles and exotic animals since 1976.
Yep. I am old!
Hey, that's the year I started too.
Chameleopatrick
New Member
Mike, you made an outlandish claim in that thread you linked, and even you apologized for it. Why on earth would you, for a second time today try and be vindictive? WE ARE DISCUSSING LIGHTING HERE.
Now you want to crap in an educational thread to make a point? Petty......
Mike Fisher
Established Member
Obviously my lighting observations/research carries no weight with you either.
Chameleopatrick
New Member
Some may argue that UVB lighting isn't required but these well respected sources say otherwise.
It's important to provide supporting data when presenting information on why you believe the way you do, contrary to the belief of a member here. Some members say" trust me" we don't need facts.
I personally want to assist in the best possible care, not just "gettin by" care.
Below are two links that have great information regarding UVB light and its positive effects. There are many more articles available online if you look.
I can say after keeping Jacksonii, parsonii, quads, perreti, serratus and montiums that dietary D3 has an incredibly negative effect, often times causing hypervitaminosis D with minor amounts.
Mountain species are incredibly sensitive to dietary D3 supplimentation and shouldn't be used due to the very small margin of error. IMHO.
http://zoomed.com/Library/ProductDBFiles/Reptiles and UVB.pdf
http://www.uvguide.co.uk/whatreptilesneed.htm
http://robertsprackland.hubpages.com/hub/Ultraviolet-Light--Vitamin-D--and-Reptile-Health
Food for thought.
Thanks to all that have sent private messages about this thread. Your support is greatly appreciated.
It's important to provide supporting data when presenting information on why you believe the way you do, contrary to the belief of a member here. Some members say" trust me" we don't need facts.
I personally want to assist in the best possible care, not just "gettin by" care.
Below are two links that have great information regarding UVB light and its positive effects. There are many more articles available online if you look.
I can say after keeping Jacksonii, parsonii, quads, perreti, serratus and montiums that dietary D3 has an incredibly negative effect, often times causing hypervitaminosis D with minor amounts.
Mountain species are incredibly sensitive to dietary D3 supplimentation and shouldn't be used due to the very small margin of error. IMHO.
http://zoomed.com/Library/ProductDBFiles/Reptiles and UVB.pdf
http://www.uvguide.co.uk/whatreptilesneed.htm
http://robertsprackland.hubpages.com/hub/Ultraviolet-Light--Vitamin-D--and-Reptile-Health
Food for thought.
Thanks to all that have sent private messages about this thread. Your support is greatly appreciated.
Last edited:
Mike Fisher
Established Member
I'm still stuck in the dark ages, but it's working for me.
Yes, I'm aware of the mountains of data but since I've never had problems I just continue to stick with what I've got going. I almost didn't share that fact. I know a few other breeders that won't because they get too much flack about it.What I've been meaning to ask you Todd, for the longest time I've wondered if there could be even a fraction of a percent of UVB emission of common bulbs, like the 6500K's or any of the newer LED spotlights. I don't have a way to measure, but have you? Just curious.
And despite not ever using UVB bulbs, I do find these threads informative and a big help to those who visit them.
The fact is that we are keeping wild exotic animals that have lived an evolved in the on fresh air and sunshine, and now they are being kept inside... almost completely cutoff from the natural environment.
Wild chams do get *some* vitamin D in the food stuff they eat.
So it is not un-natural for them to get a small percentage of Vit D through dietary sources.
But the large percentage of vit D synthesis takes place when they bask in sunlight.
In their skin.
Basking in Natural Sunlight.
You know...
that big bright ball in the sky that rises every day, as it has since the beginning of time.
That all life on Earth evolved under for millions and millions of years.
And now, we are lucky with the technology available to be able to come closer than we ever have in the past to being able to duplicate natural sunlight in captivity.
To allow these marvelous animals to be able to synthesize Vit D naturally from UV B light-- just as they have evolved to do for millions of years.
Why on Earth would anyone not want that?
This is not to mention the psychological benefits full spectrum and UV A & B light have on these animals well being.
The importance of it can not be understated.
Has anyone ever heard of S.A.D?
Seasonal Affective Disorder?
Anyone who lives in the Northern latitudes knows that those long winter days indoors with reduced sunshine ad short day length sure knows what I am talking about!
It is hard to keep depression, lethargy and the winter blahs away!
Now,
think of how indoor Chameleons feel cut off ALL THEIR LIVES from natural sunlight.
No UV A for their vision, no proper UV B for their metabolic needs.
And light levels that can be so "dim" ---
it would be like us trying to eat, read and interact in a lowly lit basement ALL OUR LIVES.
While is true that having the cage near a nice sunny window is good...
and is a help in providing a fuller spectrum of light in the animals environment.
But that is as far as it goes.
BECAUSE ALL UV IS FILTERED OUT THROUGH GLASS.
Having the cage near a window
is still like us trying to go to the beach on beautiful summer day.
Now just imagine being at the beach and trying to enjoy the
experience of the fresh air and sunshine....
sitting in an armchair and LOOKING OUT AT IT THROUGH A PICTURE WINDOW.
It sure wouldn't be the same!
An we certainly wouldn't get a tan.
It is UV rays from the sun that give us a tan and that allow the Chameleons to synthesize Vit D in their skin.
I applaud Chameleopatrick and many others for all their help and contributions to educate folks about light.
Because it IS TIME TO SEE THE LIGHT!
It is time to start taking care of these animals properly, the way Nature intended.
Cheers!
Todd Goode
www.LightYourReptiles.com
[email protected]
Want facts?
Correct lighting is so important to the animals metabolism it can not be understated.
PLEASE READ THIS:
http://www.arcadia-reptile.com/the-d3-cycle/
And Dr. Frances Baines site is a "must book-mark" page:
http://www.uvguide.co.uk/
Here is a great UV B level lighting guide for many species of Chams and other herps.
http://www.arcadia-reptile.com/lighting-guide/
Here is the hottest new book and the #1 selling book in Europe on lighting MBD and reptile care.
It has all the facts and proof anyone would ever want:
http://www.arcadia-reptile.com/guide-to-mbd/
Wild chams do get *some* vitamin D in the food stuff they eat.
So it is not un-natural for them to get a small percentage of Vit D through dietary sources.
But the large percentage of vit D synthesis takes place when they bask in sunlight.
In their skin.
Basking in Natural Sunlight.
You know...
that big bright ball in the sky that rises every day, as it has since the beginning of time.
That all life on Earth evolved under for millions and millions of years.
And now, we are lucky with the technology available to be able to come closer than we ever have in the past to being able to duplicate natural sunlight in captivity.
To allow these marvelous animals to be able to synthesize Vit D naturally from UV B light-- just as they have evolved to do for millions of years.
Why on Earth would anyone not want that?
This is not to mention the psychological benefits full spectrum and UV A & B light have on these animals well being.
The importance of it can not be understated.
Has anyone ever heard of S.A.D?
Seasonal Affective Disorder?
Anyone who lives in the Northern latitudes knows that those long winter days indoors with reduced sunshine ad short day length sure knows what I am talking about!
It is hard to keep depression, lethargy and the winter blahs away!
Now,
think of how indoor Chameleons feel cut off ALL THEIR LIVES from natural sunlight.
No UV A for their vision, no proper UV B for their metabolic needs.
And light levels that can be so "dim" ---
it would be like us trying to eat, read and interact in a lowly lit basement ALL OUR LIVES.
While is true that having the cage near a nice sunny window is good...
and is a help in providing a fuller spectrum of light in the animals environment.
But that is as far as it goes.
BECAUSE ALL UV IS FILTERED OUT THROUGH GLASS.
Having the cage near a window
is still like us trying to go to the beach on beautiful summer day.
Now just imagine being at the beach and trying to enjoy the
experience of the fresh air and sunshine....
sitting in an armchair and LOOKING OUT AT IT THROUGH A PICTURE WINDOW.
It sure wouldn't be the same!
An we certainly wouldn't get a tan.
It is UV rays from the sun that give us a tan and that allow the Chameleons to synthesize Vit D in their skin.
I applaud Chameleopatrick and many others for all their help and contributions to educate folks about light.
Because it IS TIME TO SEE THE LIGHT!
It is time to start taking care of these animals properly, the way Nature intended.
Cheers!
Todd Goode
www.LightYourReptiles.com
[email protected]
Want facts?
Correct lighting is so important to the animals metabolism it can not be understated.
PLEASE READ THIS:
http://www.arcadia-reptile.com/the-d3-cycle/
And Dr. Frances Baines site is a "must book-mark" page:
http://www.uvguide.co.uk/
Here is a great UV B level lighting guide for many species of Chams and other herps.
http://www.arcadia-reptile.com/lighting-guide/
Here is the hottest new book and the #1 selling book in Europe on lighting MBD and reptile care.
It has all the facts and proof anyone would ever want:
http://www.arcadia-reptile.com/guide-to-mbd/
Attachments
UV Light and what bulbs do and do not produce it....
Hi Mike...
maybe we can ease you into the light?
everyone knows its my mission to improve reptile care through better lighting.
lol
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
And this is a good question as to what does and does not emit UV light!
I will answer it in 2 parts.
First, The LED part.
#1
There are no...
Repeat NO ...
LED light set ups commercially available right now that can provide correct UV B light for reptiles.
Despite some VERY misleading products I have seen on eBay and other places.
Yes,
There are LED diodes that are made that produce UV light out-put in the 290 - 310 nano-meter wavelength range that in theory would synthesize vit D.
However, they are nobody has yet perfected a LED UV light that will work for reptiles and it is probably 3 - 5 years off before it is done right.
And there are LED lights for saltwater and reef tanks that produce UV light to enhance and grow corals.
However, those are in the Actinic and UV A range of the spectrum.
Useless in synthesizing Vit D.
Please see this if anyone needs to "bone up " on how UV light is absorbed and creates Vit D in the bloodstream and prevents MBD.
It was written by John Courtney-Smith:
http://www.arcadia-reptile.com/articles/
So if anyone is using LED over Chams and Cham set-up to grow plants...
Then that is great!
LED is very handy to grow plants and brighten an environment - and that is good for psychological reasons for the animals...
just as long as they are given ample real plants and shade to.
(Think a "dappled sunlight' environment.)
And if done right - LED units can add extra light to the environment and make it more like a nice sunny day out-side as far as brightness in concerned.
But it will do nothing to give the animals UV B and prevent MBD. Not at this day in age anyway.
( ".....I don't have a way to measure, but have you? Just curious."...
yes. Mike. I have measured many LED lights and diodes as well as all kinds of different bulbs with both solarmeters 6.2 and 6.5. Hundreds++ of bulbs.)
#2
Do 6.5k and other bulbs emit UV?
Here is the simple answer:
Almost never.
And if there is UV given off---
it is usually in the UV A range.
(And UV A does nothing for Vit D synthesis.)
Almost NEVER UV B in any perceivable amount.
You see, bulbs needed to produce UV need to be made of of expensive special glass to allow any UV rays to exit the bulb as light.
(That is in part why UV bulbs cost more to manufacture than reg. light bulbs.)
"Regular" glass blocks all UV.
So manufactures have to be making *specifically* a bulb to generate UV B and be using the more expensive "pure" glass to create a UV bulb.
Also, in Flo Tubes and Mercury Vapor lamps, it is the mercury inside that needs to be 'lit" to generate UV rays.
So they have to be engineered with mercury in them in high enough amount to generate a perceivable amount of UV B light.
In other words,
making a flo. or incandescent bulb that will produce any appreciable amount of UV B ....
has to be done "on purpose".
It almost never just happens with any old fluorescent tube or incandescent spot light.
*See notes on halide bulb below.
*Also, since light bulb makers certainly do not want any UV C to be emitted by their bulbs,
they sometimes even take steps (*as in the case with Halide bulbs) to add (in the glass or as a coating) elements to BLOCK all bandwidths UV.
Incandescent bulbs and Flo. tubes are more likely to give off UV A.
Since UV A can penetrate "regular" glass without getting filtered out.
(example; "Black Light" is a form of UV A.)
And sometimes it will say:
"Gives off UV A" or "Provides UV A" on some manufacturers reptile heat bulbs.
And I hate that.
Because many folks are not aware of the differences in the bandwidth of UV light....
So it can mislead people to think they are getting a light that can give the animals UV B and provide that to prevent MBD (metabolic bone disease, Vit D deficiency).
Now -- UV A IS GOOD.
It is important in most reptiles vision.
They actually "see" better with UV A added in the light!!
(Arcadia flo. tubes give off 30% UV A in conjunction with UV B.)
Ok.
Homework--
for anyone reading this thus far.
Please please please will you read it...??
please, just for me..?
Thank you!
1.
Please see my friend John Courteney-Smiths article on Vit D and UV light:
I promise it is only an easy 3 min. read.
http://www.arcadia-reptile.com/the-d3-cycle/
2.
Please click and enlarge to light spectrum chart below.
Do not worry!
You don't have to memorize it.
No quiz today!
All I would like you all to notice is how the light is divided up and there are 3 kinds of UV light.
UV A = like black light that makes day-glo posters from the 60's "pop".
UV B = like light that give YOU a sunburn and also creates Vit D in the bloodstreams of HUMANs and Reptiles.
UV C = Very intense UV light (the most concentrated wavelengths)
That sterilizes what it comes in contact with--- Highly reactive.
UV C light is what we need to Earths OZONE layer for. To PROTECT US and filter out these very caustic burning rays before they hit the planet!
they can "fry" DNA.
3.
Please read what UV B & UV A are good for in Reptiles.
UVB
Light Most reptiles need to synthesize vitamin D3 in their skin for their healthy growth for which UV light falling within a particular wave band, known as UVB (290-320 nm), is required. Although Vitamin D3 can be commercially obtained from animal sources, and given to reptiles with their food, studies have indicated that dietary D3 cannot replace the D3 synthesized in the skin from sunlight, even in reptiles injected with supplemental vitamin D3. The vitamin D type derived from plants is vitamin D2 and is not suitable for proper calcium metabolism. For the best results, vitamin D3 must be obtained from regular exposure to UVB light, either from natural sunlight or specialist reptile lamps. The Arcadia reptile lamp range has been created in order to allow reptiles and other exotic pets to be maintained without the health problems related to poor calcium metabolism.
UVA
Unlike humans, who have ‘trichromatic’ vision, enabling us to see only three primary colours - red, green and blue, we now know that many reptiles, amphibians and other species, have ‘tetrachromatic’ vision. This enables them to see the shorter UVA wavelengths (320-400 nm) of the spectrum that form a part of natural sunlight. Reds are redder and greens are greener – life without UV would be the equivalent of us seeing everything in black and white, only worse. This UVA, or fourth primary, can be critical for behaviour and even affect appetite. A reluctant feeder may need UVA light to stimulate its appetite. UVA is also needed to induce reproductive behaviour. Lizards have been found to possess ultra violet reflectance patterns on their skin, which indicate reproductive glands in particular. Female panther chameleons seek out UV light when preparing to lay eggs. Depriving a reptile of UVA light would be like making it live in a darkened room.
I'm still stuck in the dark ages, but it's working for me.
What I've been meaning to ask you Todd, for the longest time I've wondered if there could be even a fraction of a percent of UVB emission of common bulbs, like the 6500K's or any of the newer LED spotlights. I don't have a way to measure, but have you? Just curious.
And despite not ever using UVB bulbs, I do find these threads informative and a big help to those who visit them.
Hi Mike...
maybe we can ease you into the light?
everyone knows its my mission to improve reptile care through better lighting.
lol
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
And this is a good question as to what does and does not emit UV light!
I will answer it in 2 parts.
First, The LED part.
#1
There are no...
Repeat NO ...
LED light set ups commercially available right now that can provide correct UV B light for reptiles.
Despite some VERY misleading products I have seen on eBay and other places.
Yes,
There are LED diodes that are made that produce UV light out-put in the 290 - 310 nano-meter wavelength range that in theory would synthesize vit D.
However, they are nobody has yet perfected a LED UV light that will work for reptiles and it is probably 3 - 5 years off before it is done right.
And there are LED lights for saltwater and reef tanks that produce UV light to enhance and grow corals.
However, those are in the Actinic and UV A range of the spectrum.
Useless in synthesizing Vit D.
Please see this if anyone needs to "bone up " on how UV light is absorbed and creates Vit D in the bloodstream and prevents MBD.
It was written by John Courtney-Smith:
http://www.arcadia-reptile.com/articles/
So if anyone is using LED over Chams and Cham set-up to grow plants...
Then that is great!
LED is very handy to grow plants and brighten an environment - and that is good for psychological reasons for the animals...
just as long as they are given ample real plants and shade to.
(Think a "dappled sunlight' environment.)
And if done right - LED units can add extra light to the environment and make it more like a nice sunny day out-side as far as brightness in concerned.
But it will do nothing to give the animals UV B and prevent MBD. Not at this day in age anyway.
( ".....I don't have a way to measure, but have you? Just curious."...
yes. Mike. I have measured many LED lights and diodes as well as all kinds of different bulbs with both solarmeters 6.2 and 6.5. Hundreds++ of bulbs.)
#2
Do 6.5k and other bulbs emit UV?
Here is the simple answer:
Almost never.
And if there is UV given off---
it is usually in the UV A range.
(And UV A does nothing for Vit D synthesis.)
Almost NEVER UV B in any perceivable amount.
You see, bulbs needed to produce UV need to be made of of expensive special glass to allow any UV rays to exit the bulb as light.
(That is in part why UV bulbs cost more to manufacture than reg. light bulbs.)
"Regular" glass blocks all UV.
So manufactures have to be making *specifically* a bulb to generate UV B and be using the more expensive "pure" glass to create a UV bulb.
Also, in Flo Tubes and Mercury Vapor lamps, it is the mercury inside that needs to be 'lit" to generate UV rays.
So they have to be engineered with mercury in them in high enough amount to generate a perceivable amount of UV B light.
In other words,
making a flo. or incandescent bulb that will produce any appreciable amount of UV B ....
has to be done "on purpose".
It almost never just happens with any old fluorescent tube or incandescent spot light.
*See notes on halide bulb below.
*Also, since light bulb makers certainly do not want any UV C to be emitted by their bulbs,
they sometimes even take steps (*as in the case with Halide bulbs) to add (in the glass or as a coating) elements to BLOCK all bandwidths UV.
Incandescent bulbs and Flo. tubes are more likely to give off UV A.
Since UV A can penetrate "regular" glass without getting filtered out.
(example; "Black Light" is a form of UV A.)
And sometimes it will say:
"Gives off UV A" or "Provides UV A" on some manufacturers reptile heat bulbs.
And I hate that.
Because many folks are not aware of the differences in the bandwidth of UV light....
So it can mislead people to think they are getting a light that can give the animals UV B and provide that to prevent MBD (metabolic bone disease, Vit D deficiency).
Now -- UV A IS GOOD.
It is important in most reptiles vision.
They actually "see" better with UV A added in the light!!
(Arcadia flo. tubes give off 30% UV A in conjunction with UV B.)
Ok.
Homework--
for anyone reading this thus far.
Please please please will you read it...??
please, just for me..?
Thank you!
1.
Please see my friend John Courteney-Smiths article on Vit D and UV light:
I promise it is only an easy 3 min. read.
http://www.arcadia-reptile.com/the-d3-cycle/
2.
Please click and enlarge to light spectrum chart below.
Do not worry!
You don't have to memorize it.
No quiz today!
All I would like you all to notice is how the light is divided up and there are 3 kinds of UV light.
UV A = like black light that makes day-glo posters from the 60's "pop".
UV B = like light that give YOU a sunburn and also creates Vit D in the bloodstreams of HUMANs and Reptiles.
UV C = Very intense UV light (the most concentrated wavelengths)
That sterilizes what it comes in contact with--- Highly reactive.
UV C light is what we need to Earths OZONE layer for. To PROTECT US and filter out these very caustic burning rays before they hit the planet!
they can "fry" DNA.
3.
Please read what UV B & UV A are good for in Reptiles.
UVB
Light Most reptiles need to synthesize vitamin D3 in their skin for their healthy growth for which UV light falling within a particular wave band, known as UVB (290-320 nm), is required. Although Vitamin D3 can be commercially obtained from animal sources, and given to reptiles with their food, studies have indicated that dietary D3 cannot replace the D3 synthesized in the skin from sunlight, even in reptiles injected with supplemental vitamin D3. The vitamin D type derived from plants is vitamin D2 and is not suitable for proper calcium metabolism. For the best results, vitamin D3 must be obtained from regular exposure to UVB light, either from natural sunlight or specialist reptile lamps. The Arcadia reptile lamp range has been created in order to allow reptiles and other exotic pets to be maintained without the health problems related to poor calcium metabolism.
UVA
Unlike humans, who have ‘trichromatic’ vision, enabling us to see only three primary colours - red, green and blue, we now know that many reptiles, amphibians and other species, have ‘tetrachromatic’ vision. This enables them to see the shorter UVA wavelengths (320-400 nm) of the spectrum that form a part of natural sunlight. Reds are redder and greens are greener – life without UV would be the equivalent of us seeing everything in black and white, only worse. This UVA, or fourth primary, can be critical for behaviour and even affect appetite. A reluctant feeder may need UVA light to stimulate its appetite. UVA is also needed to induce reproductive behaviour. Lizards have been found to possess ultra violet reflectance patterns on their skin, which indicate reproductive glands in particular. Female panther chameleons seek out UV light when preparing to lay eggs. Depriving a reptile of UVA light would be like making it live in a darkened room.
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arsnake
New Member
I just read the post, and I must say that there are really a lot of interesting information!
But I had a bit of trouble in obtaining a summary of conclusions because of different opinions meet ...
What is the setup of lights that best reflects the sunlight?
the setup is suitable for all chameleons? (pygmy chameleons separately)
or there is a difference between species?
solar intensity (lumen), uv a , uv b, temperature and light are the factors that affect the choice of the setup... of course...
Finally, there is a valid setup for all chameleons (pygmies in part = less lumens) or there is a differentiation between species?
if there is a definitive setup applies to all chamaleon what 'is?
expressed in lumens solar intensity varies from morning, noon or in the afternoon? if so should adjust various intensity lumen so as to make them vary depending on the time of day. As for the temperature of the light, which is responsible of the temperatures in the basking point, and varies with the time of day ...
sorry but between all the different voices I did not understand ...
But I had a bit of trouble in obtaining a summary of conclusions because of different opinions meet ...
What is the setup of lights that best reflects the sunlight?
the setup is suitable for all chameleons? (pygmy chameleons separately)
or there is a difference between species?
solar intensity (lumen), uv a , uv b, temperature and light are the factors that affect the choice of the setup... of course...
Finally, there is a valid setup for all chameleons (pygmies in part = less lumens) or there is a differentiation between species?
if there is a definitive setup applies to all chamaleon what 'is?
expressed in lumens solar intensity varies from morning, noon or in the afternoon? if so should adjust various intensity lumen so as to make them vary depending on the time of day. As for the temperature of the light, which is responsible of the temperatures in the basking point, and varies with the time of day ...
sorry but between all the different voices I did not understand ...
Mike Fisher
Established Member
Todd, Thank you for answering my questions in such detail. The basis of my questions was primarily to ascertain if my animals had been getting UVB in any trace amounts. I am aware of all of the studies that prove that oral vitamin d3 is not absorbed properly if at all, so I surmised that my chameleons must be getting some UVB from the regular bulbs. Now thanks to the details you've provided, I know that can't possibly be the case.
Which leaves me even more confused. I wonder how are my animals even alive, much less producing viable offspring for several generations? I think there is still probably more we don't know about this subject than what we do know.
I do look forward to one day trying out some UVB bulbs to see if it makes a discernible difference in their activity levels, appetite, or breeding behavior.
Again, I am not skeptical that providing UVB is the most healthy way for them to synthesize vitamin D, but what it has always boiled down to for me was cost verses benefit.
Some people might say, "Well of course, the health of each of your animals is worth it and I'd spend whatever it takes". That is easy to say when you have a handful of cages, but what about 100 of them? Then those same people might say, "Well if you can't put the right bulbs over all of your cages, you shouldn't be producing the animals." I think that is narrow minded. Reptiles were successfully bred for many years before these bulbs were invented and perfected. And if those animals are breeding for several generations with hatch rates nearing 100 percent, who can judge?
Here's what I hope happens, when I do get to try them out, my chameleons immediately perk up and take notice. They look happy and hungry and their colors brighten. The females immediately become receptive and the males mount them. I really hope so, because if my animals have done this well without the bulbs, imagine the possibilities with them. If that happens, I will budget enough to buy one fixture with bulbs every month until I have one over every cage.
Thank you for taking your time to explain all of this to me.
Which leaves me even more confused. I wonder how are my animals even alive, much less producing viable offspring for several generations? I think there is still probably more we don't know about this subject than what we do know.
I do look forward to one day trying out some UVB bulbs to see if it makes a discernible difference in their activity levels, appetite, or breeding behavior.
Again, I am not skeptical that providing UVB is the most healthy way for them to synthesize vitamin D, but what it has always boiled down to for me was cost verses benefit.
Some people might say, "Well of course, the health of each of your animals is worth it and I'd spend whatever it takes". That is easy to say when you have a handful of cages, but what about 100 of them? Then those same people might say, "Well if you can't put the right bulbs over all of your cages, you shouldn't be producing the animals." I think that is narrow minded. Reptiles were successfully bred for many years before these bulbs were invented and perfected. And if those animals are breeding for several generations with hatch rates nearing 100 percent, who can judge?
Here's what I hope happens, when I do get to try them out, my chameleons immediately perk up and take notice. They look happy and hungry and their colors brighten. The females immediately become receptive and the males mount them. I really hope so, because if my animals have done this well without the bulbs, imagine the possibilities with them. If that happens, I will budget enough to buy one fixture with bulbs every month until I have one over every cage.
Thank you for taking your time to explain all of this to me.
